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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Bite-size gaming .. the future of MMO?

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466 posts found
  Nitth

Elite Member

Joined: 7/29/10
Posts: 3070

Magic Propels my Rolly Chair.

3/08/13 7:17:01 PM#81


Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by Nitth  

Originally posted by Cephus404

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar I don't see why we can't have short gaming sessions. There is no reason why a game can't last years, but have whatever content broken up into smaller sections. Dungeon runs that take hours to complete but can be broken up into many sections.  Quests are the same.  I can't see any downsides to having a short session be part of a longer experience.
Yup, just like a SP game, have checkpoints within dungeons.  You should be able to reach checkpoints in 5-10 minutes so that if you only have a little while to play, you get to a checkpoint, your game is saved and you can log off.  If you log off before reaching a checkpoint, you go back to the last checkpoint you reached.
  That doesnt and should not work in an mmorpg space.
Why not.  I think it's just fine.  A dungeon with multiple levels.  When you finish a level you can leave and do something else, then come back and start at that level again.  It would work just fine. 

me me me me.

What about the other players in the dungeon?


TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development

  ClaudeSuamOram

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/08/13
Posts: 134

3/08/13 7:17:57 PM#82
Originally posted by Quirhid
Originally posted by Axehilt
Originally posted by Cephus404

I'm sure they're capable of making a deep game, but that's not what the largest, most financially viable segment of the gaming population wants.  They want fast, low-effort, on-rails games.  How is it a bad thing that the marketplace is giving the gamers who pay their paychecks what they want?  Just because you don't happen to be one of those  gamers, that's not their fault or their problem.  It just means you're irrelevant.

Actually that segment of the gaming population does want deep games.  But first and foremost they want accessible games.

  • Low-accessibility, high-depth: Hardcore niche following.
  • High-accessibility, low-depth: Lots of casual players, but they leave quickly because the game doesn't last long.
  • High-accessibility, high-depth: Optimal game design; attracts a ton of players and they stay for a long time.  (Except for a few hardcore niche players who immediately label the game casual due to its accessibility and walk away without exploring its true depth.)
The concepts of accessibility and depth aren't entirely in tension with one another
 
I'm amused by the notion of a time-traveling MMORPG player being present for the latest revision of what we now know as chess and saying, "Only 16 piece types!?  Clearly dumbed down for the masses!"
 
"Simple to learn, a lifetime to master" has been and still is the goal of good game design.  Optimizing your depth-to-complexity ratio, basically.  The lion's share of the most successful games on the market adhere quite closely to this rule.

I agree with this generalization and assessment. Depth and accessiblity are not in combat with one another. If you truly understood what both meant, you'd see that.

"Easy to learn, hard to master" is the holy grail every game designer should strive for.

Agree with the red highlighted portion.

  Quirhid

Elite Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5369

I dare you to pin a label on me.

3/08/13 7:23:36 PM#83
Originally posted by Yamota
Originally posted by Anthur
McDonalds, jump in and eat something in seconds. Great food ? Not really.

Just because it caters to the masses does not mean it is good, it means it is profitable.

The fastfood metaphor does applies poorly to MMORPGs. I don't know why you guys insist on using it. It implies that your preferred type of MMORPGs are a sophisticated cuisine, fine dining of sorts - which it is obviously not. There is no refined taste in MMOs. Just taste - simple preference. No one's preference is superior to someone else's.

The fastfood metaphor is an effort for the minority to feel superior in the face of overwhelming popular demand.

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  ClaudeSuamOram

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/08/13
Posts: 134

3/08/13 7:29:41 PM#84
Originally posted by Quirhid
Originally posted by Yamota
Originally posted by Anthur
McDonalds, jump in and eat something in seconds. Great food ? Not really.

Just because it caters to the masses does not mean it is good, it means it is profitable.

The fastfood metaphor does applies poorly to MMORPGs. I don't know why you guys insist on using it. It implies that your preferred type of MMORPGs are a sophisticated cuisine, fine dining of sorts - which it is obviously not. There is no refined taste in MMOs. Just taste - simple preference. No one's preference is superior to someone else's.

The fastfood metaphor is an effort for the minority to feel superior in the face of overwhelming popular demand.

IDK why you don't feel it fits. Seems to make plenty of sense to me. McDonald's is HUGELY popular...but I personally don't see why as it gives fast food at a reasonable (In comparison) price....but said food is crappy to me and gives me awful indigestion. Hence why I don't eat it. The burgers anyways...I eat the breakfast items, fries, and shakes. Hence...it's popular...but that doesn't make it good....just successful via marketing. Like WoW and a lot of other MMO's out these days.

I am sure there are plenty of people that feel as I do.

Seems the metaphor just doesn't sit well with you personally as you like those types of games? My guess.

  bcbully

Elite Member

Joined: 3/03/12
Posts: 6482

3/08/13 7:32:20 PM#85
I prefer to "Swallow the Whale."
  Aeolyn

Novice Member

Joined: 11/23/08
Posts: 136

3/08/13 8:16:57 PM#86
Originally posted by ClaudeSuamOram

Jeebus jumped up Christ!

 

Reading most of the comments here it seems some want to make MMORPG's games that already exist. Console games. Quick fun, save points?!....Yep...sounds like console games. You guys know PS4 is due out near the end of the year right?

 

I don't get it. If you don't have time to dedicate to them, WHY play them? Why not just play console games. They allow for everything you ask for. Just sayin.

Agreed, I'm starting to think that maybe the problem here is simply a misunderstanding of the differences between console gaming and mmorpg gaming.  They are two different things even though multi-player console games have been trying to bridge the gap.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 17959

 
OP  3/08/13 10:52:21 PM#87
Originally posted by Nitth

Why not.  I think it's just fine.  A dungeon with multiple levels.  When you finish a level you can leave and do something else, then come back and start at that level again.  It would work just fine. 

 

me me me me.

What about the other players in the dungeon?

What about him? Click the "need more player" button and get a new guy. It is a game, not a job. It is not like there is a lack of other players to match with.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 17959

 
OP  3/08/13 10:54:47 PM#88
Originally posted by ClaudeSuamOram

Jeebus jumped up Christ!

 

Reading most of the comments here it seems some want to make MMORPG's games that already exist. Console games. Quick fun, save points?!....Yep...sounds like console games. You guys know PS4 is due out near the end of the year right?

 

I don't get it. If you don't have time to dedicate to them, WHY play them? Why not just play console games. They allow for everything you ask for. Just sayin.

You get it the reverse. It is the devs who want the 15 min players, not the other way around.

And why not? If a game let me to have fun in 15 min, why should i say no?

And why shouldn't MMOs becoming more like console games when many players will like that?

"dedicate to them" ... we are talking about games here right?

 

  Nitth

Elite Member

Joined: 7/29/10
Posts: 3070

Magic Propels my Rolly Chair.

3/09/13 2:41:12 AM#89


Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Nitth



Why not.  I think it's just fine.  A dungeon with multiple levels.  When you finish a level you can leave and do something else, then come back and start at that level again.  It would work just fine. 
  me me me me. What about the other players in the dungeon?
What about him? Click the "need more player" button and get a new guy. It is a game, not a job. It is not like there is a lack of other players to match with.

So another player...is just means to an end? WTF is the community coming to these days.

These are supposed to be virtual worlds shared by players. I question if you cant devide enough time to do an event with REAL PEOPLE then maybe you should of picked up that single player game to fill your time.

Its got nothing to do with a "Job" its just the courtesy that a group of people say "were gona spend an hour doing this dungeon together" without people dropping out every 5 minutes.


TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development

  VengeSunsoar

Elite Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4329

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

3/09/13 3:06:31 AM#90
Originally posted by Nitth

 


Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Nitth



Why not.  I think it's just fine.  A dungeon with multiple levels.  When you finish a level you can leave and do something else, then come back and start at that level again.  It would work just fine. 
  me me me me. What about the other players in the dungeon?
What about him? Click the "need more player" button and get a new guy. It is a game, not a job. It is not like there is a lack of other players to match with.

 

So another player...is just means to an end? WTF is the community coming to these days.

These are supposed to be virtual worlds shared by players. I question if you cant devide enough time to do an event with REAL PEOPLE then maybe you should of picked up that single player game to fill your time.

Its got nothing to do with a "Job" its just the courtesy that a group of people say "were gona spend an hour doing this dungeon together" without people dropping out every 5 minutes.

 Strange place to go.  Groups break up for hundreds of reasons all the time, not all of which are selfish.  There are a myriad reasons why someone in the group would need to go that results in the group breaking up, starting the whole dungeon again, if it is a  very long dungeon, would be needlessly annoying.  The same group, or a different group at the same area, could just pick it up again at a later time at that same point.

This does nothing to challenge or depth or long play sessions, it only makes it easier for people with shorter play sessions to move forward.  This would actually enhance groups and help establish those social friends people are always saying MMO's should do.

edit - not only that but you could make some really really really long dungeons this way.

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  Antiquated

Novice Member

Joined: 3/08/13
Posts: 477

3/09/13 3:48:33 AM#91
Originally posted by bcbully
I prefer to "Swallow the Whale."

Uh... video highly discouraged. Thank you.

  ClaudeSuamOram

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/08/13
Posts: 134

3/09/13 8:36:18 AM#92
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by ClaudeSuamOram

Jeebus jumped up Christ!

 

Reading most of the comments here it seems some want to make MMORPG's games that already exist. Console games. Quick fun, save points?!....Yep...sounds like console games. You guys know PS4 is due out near the end of the year right?

 

I don't get it. If you don't have time to dedicate to them, WHY play them? Why not just play console games. They allow for everything you ask for. Just sayin.

You get it the reverse. It is the devs who want the 15 min players, not the other way around.

And why not? If a game let me to have fun in 15 min, why should i say no?

And why shouldn't MMOs becoming more like console games when many players will like that?

"dedicate to them" ... we are talking about games here right?

 

Sounds very much like that's what YOU want.

It's the playerbases that want that direction, not the dev's really. Why would they suddenly just say..."HEY! Let's make the game playable in 15 minute incriments and see if it sells." They wouldn't...unless they had reason to, which is the playerbase ASKING for it, or showing a pattern of that type of play. Sadly.

I think what you are missing the point of is that MMORPG's are...excuse me, WERE different from console games for a reason. They are still games yes...but a different type of game to satisfy and entertain a different type of player. Now since they are mainstream thanks to Blizzard in particular, the masses whine for them to be like console games more.

Personally I feel this is the younger people who came up with console games and that's what they feel comfortable with, and old school players who are now in their late 30's and 40's who still want to play them and hold on to that magic, but dont have the time to dedicate to them like they use to. So they want to change them to be more console like so they feel they can keep up with everyone else being able to accomplish things in 10 minutes...rather than play as they can and still enjoy the game for the character progression and exploration/community aspects.

Soon MMORPG's will be extinct at this rate. Just my 2cp.

  AlBQuirky

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/24/05
Posts: 2713

Tomorrow's just a future yesterday...

3/09/13 10:27:01 AM#93


Originally posted by rojo6934
EDIT: keep bite-size gaming where it belongs. Celphones and tablets on the go.

QFT

- Al

Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
- FARGIN_WAR

  mmoguy43

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/31/09
Posts: 2255

3/09/13 11:12:31 AM#94

I don't get it.

OP uses games for examples that are already designed for accomplising something in a a short time after logging in. PS2 aren't all FPS games defined as "bite size gaming" compatible? LoL- MOBAs are the same way. Action RPGs...the same. All of which aren't MMOs and now say that that is the future of MMOs?

Can I say that long term gaming is the future of MMOs by providing different examples, of which are actual MMOs?

The length of your play session in order to get something done doesn't have to do with MMO being tacked on to the rest of it's design. Civ5 Multiplayer, is that bit sized gaming? Our game can take DAYS until we win but we can save and resume at any moment.

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

3/09/13 12:17:51 PM#95
Originally posted by ClaudeSuamOram

Jeebus jumped up Christ! 

Reading most of the comments here it seems some want to make MMORPG's games that already exist. Console games. Quick fun, save points?!....Yep...sounds like console games. You guys know PS4 is due out near the end of the year right? 

I don't get it. If you don't have time to dedicate to them, WHY play them? Why not just play console games. They allow for everything you ask for. Just sayin.

Eh?  Plenty of people want the MMORPGs which already exist (and keep being made.)  That's why they keep being made.

It's not about console gaming though.  It's about gaming for the love of gaming.  Perhaps it's before your time, but before MMORPGs our videogames didn't hide fun behind excessive timesinks and minimal gameplay -- they were simply fun to play from the moment you started playing.

Nothing is gained by hiding the fun, except a diluted, less fun game.

  User Deleted
3/09/13 12:41:06 PM#96
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by birdycephon
Now what we need is some android-based MMOs. Cuz you know that's where it's headed.

There are already iOS MMOs. I think some are available on andriod too.

There are and some of them are quite good. I particularly like Dark Legends.

Also, Baldur's Gate 2: Enhanced Edition is out on PC, OSX, iOS, and they are working on the Android version.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 17959

 
OP  3/09/13 7:52:04 PM#97
Originally posted by mmoguy43

I don't get it.

OP uses games for examples that are already designed for accomplising something in a a short time after logging in. PS2 aren't all FPS games defined as "bite size gaming" compatible? LoL- MOBAs are the same way. Action RPGs...the same. All of which aren't MMOs and now say that that is the future of MMOs?

Can I say that long term gaming is the future of MMOs by providing different examples, of which are actual MMOs?

The length of your play session in order to get something done doesn't have to do with MMO being tacked on to the rest of it's design. Civ5 Multiplayer, is that bit sized gaming? Our game can take DAYS until we win but we can save and resume at any moment.

That is exactly the point. The future of MMO is to move AWAY from traditional long grind, long session.

These games are competing with MMOs, while they are not. Learning from your competition .. particularly the successful ones .. is a good thing.

Being close minded and limit one to the old definition of MMO is not helpful.

  mmoguy43

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/31/09
Posts: 2255

3/09/13 9:11:19 PM#98
As far as I know there is only one definition of MMO and that has nothing to do with the length of your play session.
  Cecropia

Gumshoe

Joined: 3/06/09
Posts: 3201

Poacher killer.

3/09/13 9:25:25 PM#99
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by mmoguy43

I don't get it.

OP uses games for examples that are already designed for accomplising something in a a short time after logging in. PS2 aren't all FPS games defined as "bite size gaming" compatible? LoL- MOBAs are the same way. Action RPGs...the same. All of which aren't MMOs and now say that that is the future of MMOs?

Can I say that long term gaming is the future of MMOs by providing different examples, of which are actual MMOs?

The length of your play session in order to get something done doesn't have to do with MMO being tacked on to the rest of it's design. Civ5 Multiplayer, is that bit sized gaming? Our game can take DAYS until we win but we can save and resume at any moment.

That is exactly the point. The future of MMO is to move AWAY from traditional long grind, long session.

These games are competing with MMOs, while they are not. Learning from your competition .. particularly the successful ones .. is a good thing.

Being close minded and limit one to the old definition of MMO is not helpful.

Degrading the definition of MMOs into the realm of cheap thrills is not helpful. We've got enough genres that cover that. Homogenization is not the way forward.

"Chuck's a good fighter but he's a UFC fighter... this is Pride." - Quinton Rampage Jackson
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb

  Loktofeit

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 11358

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ESO, and Combat Arms

3/09/13 10:31:35 PM#100
Originally posted by Nitth


Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Nitth

Why not.  I think it's just fine.  A dungeon with multiple levels.  When you finish a level you can leave and do something else, then come back and start at that level again.  It would work just fine. 


  me me me me. What about the other players in the dungeon?
What about him? Click the "need more player" button and get a new guy. It is a game, not a job. It is not like there is a lack of other players to match with.

So another player...is just means to an end? WTF is the community coming to these days.

These are supposed to be virtual worlds shared by players. I question if you cant devide enough time to do an event with REAL PEOPLE then maybe you should of picked up that single player game to fill your time.

Its got nothing to do with a "Job" its just the courtesy that a group of people say "were gona spend an hour doing this dungeon together" without people dropping out every 5 minutes.

To address each point in order:

'These days' is the past decade of MMOs. WOW and most other MMOs that followed have been specifically designed with other players as a means to an end. There are no community building tools and there are no social tools. There's little, if any, metagaming outside of raid participation bickering.  Even the battlegrounds in most MMOs are designed to accommodate that, as the actual group you are competing against is your own team. The other team is just the means to collect the points, but to increase your rank you need to get more points than the other guys you are fighting with.

You're thinking in terms of existing mechanics and not the proposed mechanics.

The same with your last issue - you're not thinking outside of mainstream 'raid' design. If the dungeon is built around 15-30 minute sessions, your perceived ettiquette issue is irrelevant.

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