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General Gaming  » Laughable DRM Sim City 5

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209 posts found
  Quailman

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/08/09
Posts: 164

3/11/13 1:09:28 PM#181
Originally posted by birdycephon
Originally posted by Quailman
Originally posted by birdycephon
Originally posted by Thillian
Originally posted by Quailman
Originally posted by Nitth

 


Originally posted by Nethkhar

Originally posted by Aori I don't like EA in general but ya know what they still own 1 IP i'll always be a sucker for. Anyways if you like the game and want to play it then buy it, obviously the company is doing something right. However If you're going to bash EA and their products but turn around and pirate it because you want it, you're just a scumbag thief.
If I buy the game then download a pirated copy so I can play it offline, would that still make me a scumbag? 

 

Yes. Still illegal to hack exe's....

Oh bullshit. He paid for the game, he should be able to play it however he wants, whether the company that made it wants him to or not. As long as he's not freely distributing the game, he's not doing anything wrong.

I think legally, he didn't buy the game per se. He just bought a temporary access to the Sim City server, which may be suspended or even terminated at EA sole discretion, according to the EULA if you have read it.

 

Some people fail to understand that the only thing they bay is the plastic that is the disk, and/or the registration key that is essentially a proof of purchase. Everything else is the property of EA

And some people fail to understand how ridiculous that is. I can't believe there are consumers out there that actually think it's okay that we only "lease" games. When I buy a game, it's mine. I wil do whatever I want with it, barring sharing it to the public or getting profit from the publishers/developers work. Whatever I choose to do with it for personal use is my business, and I really don't care what you or any EULA has to say about it.

And that is exactly why we have DRM. 

And that is exactly why publishers are going to lose more and more money, and piracy is going to continue to rise.

Consume. Be silent. Die.

  Thillian

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/31/06
Posts: 3219

3/11/13 1:13:18 PM#182
Originally posted by birdycephon
Originally posted by Quailman
Originally posted by birdycephon
Originally posted by Thillian
Originally posted by Quailman
 

Oh bullshit. He paid for the game, he should be able to play it however he wants, whether the company that made it wants him to or not. As long as he's not freely distributing the game, he's not doing anything wrong.

I think legally, he didn't buy the game per se. He just bought a temporary access to the Sim City server, which may be suspended or even terminated at EA sole discretion, according to the EULA if you have read it.

 

Some people fail to understand that the only thing they bay is the plastic that is the disk, and/or the registration key that is essentially a proof of purchase. Everything else is the property of EA

And some people fail to understand how ridiculous that is. I can't believe there are consumers out there that actually think it's okay that we only "lease" games. When I buy a game, it's mine. I wil do whatever I want with it, barring sharing it to the public or getting profit from the publishers/developers work. Whatever I choose to do with it for personal use is my business, and I really don't care what you or any EULA has to say about it.

And that is exactly why we have DRM. 

Legally, when you buy a game like Sim City, its not yours. You do not own anything. You have gained a temporary access to the software and/or game servers, which at the sole discretion of EA, can be terminated.

Whether its right or wrong is a different matter. Your opinion only counts how you behave as a customer. If you bought it, you have no right to bitch about it. And as a matter of fact, I haven't bought Sim City and dont intend to do so until it's DRM free.

REALITY CHECK

  Elikal

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/09/06
Posts: 8067

“No path is darker then when your eyes are shut.” -Flemeth

3/11/13 1:39:13 PM#183
Originally posted by Thillian
Originally posted by birdycephon
Originally posted by Quailman
Originally posted by birdycephon
Originally posted by Thillian
Originally posted by Quailman
 

Oh bullshit. He paid for the game, he should be able to play it however he wants, whether the company that made it wants him to or not. As long as he's not freely distributing the game, he's not doing anything wrong.

I think legally, he didn't buy the game per se. He just bought a temporary access to the Sim City server, which may be suspended or even terminated at EA sole discretion, according to the EULA if you have read it.

 

Some people fail to understand that the only thing they bay is the plastic that is the disk, and/or the registration key that is essentially a proof of purchase. Everything else is the property of EA

And some people fail to understand how ridiculous that is. I can't believe there are consumers out there that actually think it's okay that we only "lease" games. When I buy a game, it's mine. I wil do whatever I want with it, barring sharing it to the public or getting profit from the publishers/developers work. Whatever I choose to do with it for personal use is my business, and I really don't care what you or any EULA has to say about it.

And that is exactly why we have DRM. 

Legally, when you buy a game like Sim City, its not yours. You do not own anything. You have gained a temporary access to the software and/or game servers, which at the sole discretion of EA, can be terminated.

Whether its right or wrong is a different matter. Your opinion only counts how you behave as a customer. If you bought it, you have no right to bitch about it. And as a matter of fact, I haven't bought Sim City and dont intend to do so until it's DRM free.

Err no.

The EU supreme court said otherwise just last year. ;)

Even download buy = legal owner with rights to resell.

A forum is a place where people can discuss about different opinions. So what I don't get is, how people react offended when they come to a forum and then find... well different opinions. If a different opinion offends you, what are you even doing here?

  birdycephon

Novice Member

Joined: 8/08/09
Posts: 1327

Not Safe For Woona (NSFW)

3/11/13 1:46:47 PM#184
Originally posted by Elikal
Originally posted by Thillian
Originally posted by birdycephon
Originally posted by Quailman
Originally posted by birdycephon
Originally posted by Thillian
Originally posted by Quailman
 

Oh bullshit. He paid for the game, he should be able to play it however he wants, whether the company that made it wants him to or not. As long as he's not freely distributing the game, he's not doing anything wrong.

I think legally, he didn't buy the game per se. He just bought a temporary access to the Sim City server, which may be suspended or even terminated at EA sole discretion, according to the EULA if you have read it.

 

Some people fail to understand that the only thing they bay is the plastic that is the disk, and/or the registration key that is essentially a proof of purchase. Everything else is the property of EA

And some people fail to understand how ridiculous that is. I can't believe there are consumers out there that actually think it's okay that we only "lease" games. When I buy a game, it's mine. I wil do whatever I want with it, barring sharing it to the public or getting profit from the publishers/developers work. Whatever I choose to do with it for personal use is my business, and I really don't care what you or any EULA has to say about it.

And that is exactly why we have DRM. 

Legally, when you buy a game like Sim City, its not yours. You do not own anything. You have gained a temporary access to the software and/or game servers, which at the sole discretion of EA, can be terminated.

Whether its right or wrong is a different matter. Your opinion only counts how you behave as a customer. If you bought it, you have no right to bitch about it. And as a matter of fact, I haven't bought Sim City and dont intend to do so until it's DRM free.

Err no.

The EU supreme court said otherwise just last year. ;)

Even download buy = legal owner with rights to resell.

If EA was a european company, then that would be true, however its not.

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

3/11/13 1:56:18 PM#185
Yeah but the customers are in Europe.
  birdycephon

Novice Member

Joined: 8/08/09
Posts: 1327

Not Safe For Woona (NSFW)

3/11/13 1:59:11 PM#186
However, if youre really set on buying the game, I'm sure EA would sell it to you for $150M if youre lucky.
  Dihoru

Elite Member

Joined: 1/11/06
Posts: 2427

3/11/13 2:01:05 PM#187
Originally posted by birdycephon
Originally posted by Elikal
Originally posted by Thillian
Originally posted by birdycephon
Originally posted by Quailman
Originally posted by birdycephon
Originally posted by Thillian
Originally posted by Quailman
 

Oh bullshit. He paid for the game, he should be able to play it however he wants, whether the company that made it wants him to or not. As long as he's not freely distributing the game, he's not doing anything wrong.

I think legally, he didn't buy the game per se. He just bought a temporary access to the Sim City server, which may be suspended or even terminated at EA sole discretion, according to the EULA if you have read it.

 

Some people fail to understand that the only thing they bay is the plastic that is the disk, and/or the registration key that is essentially a proof of purchase. Everything else is the property of EA

And some people fail to understand how ridiculous that is. I can't believe there are consumers out there that actually think it's okay that we only "lease" games. When I buy a game, it's mine. I wil do whatever I want with it, barring sharing it to the public or getting profit from the publishers/developers work. Whatever I choose to do with it for personal use is my business, and I really don't care what you or any EULA has to say about it.

And that is exactly why we have DRM. 

Legally, when you buy a game like Sim City, its not yours. You do not own anything. You have gained a temporary access to the software and/or game servers, which at the sole discretion of EA, can be terminated.

Whether its right or wrong is a different matter. Your opinion only counts how you behave as a customer. If you bought it, you have no right to bitch about it. And as a matter of fact, I haven't bought Sim City and dont intend to do so until it's DRM free.

Err no.

The EU supreme court said otherwise just last year. ;)

Even download buy = legal owner with rights to resell.

If EA was a european company, then that would be true, however its not.

How much is EA paying you... now honestly... cause if we split hairs like this EA with its current European law breaking should not be allowed to publish in Europe, any company that does so should be banned from selling their wares if said wares somehow go against the laws of said region.

  Xirik

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/13/06
Posts: 1688

What is a man? A miserable little pile of secrets and lies!

3/11/13 2:02:54 PM#188
Originally posted by Uhwop

It's been a pain to play, but holy crap it's an awesome game. 

I can suffer through the release pains, very worth it. 

Exactly^

 

"You have some serious mental issues you may need to seek some help for. There are others who post things, but do not post them in the way you do. Out of every person who posts crazy shit in this forum, you have some of the craziest and scariest" -FarReach

  Quailman

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/08/09
Posts: 164

3/11/13 2:07:35 PM#189
Originally posted by birdycephon
Originally posted by Elikal
Originally posted by Thillian
Originally posted by birdycephon
Originally posted by Quailman
Originally posted by birdycephon
Originally posted by Thillian
Originally posted by Quailman
 

Oh bullshit. He paid for the game, he should be able to play it however he wants, whether the company that made it wants him to or not. As long as he's not freely distributing the game, he's not doing anything wrong.

I think legally, he didn't buy the game per se. He just bought a temporary access to the Sim City server, which may be suspended or even terminated at EA sole discretion, according to the EULA if you have read it.

 

Some people fail to understand that the only thing they bay is the plastic that is the disk, and/or the registration key that is essentially a proof of purchase. Everything else is the property of EA

And some people fail to understand how ridiculous that is. I can't believe there are consumers out there that actually think it's okay that we only "lease" games. When I buy a game, it's mine. I wil do whatever I want with it, barring sharing it to the public or getting profit from the publishers/developers work. Whatever I choose to do with it for personal use is my business, and I really don't care what you or any EULA has to say about it.

And that is exactly why we have DRM. 

Legally, when you buy a game like Sim City, its not yours. You do not own anything. You have gained a temporary access to the software and/or game servers, which at the sole discretion of EA, can be terminated.

Whether its right or wrong is a different matter. Your opinion only counts how you behave as a customer. If you bought it, you have no right to bitch about it. And as a matter of fact, I haven't bought Sim City and dont intend to do so until it's DRM free.

Err no.

The EU supreme court said otherwise just last year. ;)

Even download buy = legal owner with rights to resell.

If EA was a european company, then that would be true, however its not.

Any company that wishes to do business within a certain country, must comply with that country's consumer laws. EA is no exception.

Consume. Be silent. Die.

  birdycephon

Novice Member

Joined: 8/08/09
Posts: 1327

Not Safe For Woona (NSFW)

3/11/13 2:12:36 PM#190
Originally posted by Quailman
Originally posted by birdycephon
Originally posted by Elikal
Originally posted by Thillian
Originally posted by birdycephon
Originally posted by Quailman
Originally posted by birdycephon
Originally posted by Thillian
Originally posted by Quailman
 

Oh bullshit. He paid for the game, he should be able to play it however he wants, whether the company that made it wants him to or not. As long as he's not freely distributing the game, he's not doing anything wrong.

I think legally, he didn't buy the game per se. He just bought a temporary access to the Sim City server, which may be suspended or even terminated at EA sole discretion, according to the EULA if you have read it.

 

Some people fail to understand that the only thing they bay is the plastic that is the disk, and/or the registration key that is essentially a proof of purchase. Everything else is the property of EA

And some people fail to understand how ridiculous that is. I can't believe there are consumers out there that actually think it's okay that we only "lease" games. When I buy a game, it's mine. I wil do whatever I want with it, barring sharing it to the public or getting profit from the publishers/developers work. Whatever I choose to do with it for personal use is my business, and I really don't care what you or any EULA has to say about it.

And that is exactly why we have DRM. 

Legally, when you buy a game like Sim City, its not yours. You do not own anything. You have gained a temporary access to the software and/or game servers, which at the sole discretion of EA, can be terminated.

Whether its right or wrong is a different matter. Your opinion only counts how you behave as a customer. If you bought it, you have no right to bitch about it. And as a matter of fact, I haven't bought Sim City and dont intend to do so until it's DRM free.

Err no.

The EU supreme court said otherwise just last year. ;)

Even download buy = legal owner with rights to resell.

If EA was a european company, then that would be true, however its not.

Any company that wishes to do business within a certain country, must comply with that country's consumer laws. EA is no exception.

Sure, enforce it then. If they had the balls, they would, but they love ther money too much, so tough luck with that.

  Dihoru

Elite Member

Joined: 1/11/06
Posts: 2427

3/11/13 2:14:48 PM#191
Originally posted by birdycephon
Originally posted by Quailman
Originally posted by birdycephon
Originally posted by Elikal
Originally posted by Thillian
Originally posted by birdycephon
Originally posted by Quailman
Originally posted by birdycephon
Originally posted by Thillian
Originally posted by Quailman
 

Oh bullshit. He paid for the game, he should be able to play it however he wants, whether the company that made it wants him to or not. As long as he's not freely distributing the game, he's not doing anything wrong.

I think legally, he didn't buy the game per se. He just bought a temporary access to the Sim City server, which may be suspended or even terminated at EA sole discretion, according to the EULA if you have read it.

 

Some people fail to understand that the only thing they bay is the plastic that is the disk, and/or the registration key that is essentially a proof of purchase. Everything else is the property of EA

And some people fail to understand how ridiculous that is. I can't believe there are consumers out there that actually think it's okay that we only "lease" games. When I buy a game, it's mine. I wil do whatever I want with it, barring sharing it to the public or getting profit from the publishers/developers work. Whatever I choose to do with it for personal use is my business, and I really don't care what you or any EULA has to say about it.

And that is exactly why we have DRM. 

Legally, when you buy a game like Sim City, its not yours. You do not own anything. You have gained a temporary access to the software and/or game servers, which at the sole discretion of EA, can be terminated.

Whether its right or wrong is a different matter. Your opinion only counts how you behave as a customer. If you bought it, you have no right to bitch about it. And as a matter of fact, I haven't bought Sim City and dont intend to do so until it's DRM free.

Err no.

The EU supreme court said otherwise just last year. ;)

Even download buy = legal owner with rights to resell.

If EA was a european company, then that would be true, however its not.

Any company that wishes to do business within a certain country, must comply with that country's consumer laws. EA is no exception.

Sure, enforce it then. If they had the balls, they would, but they love ther money too much, so tough luck with that.

You really wanna see how fast politicians switch sides? all it really needs is a few dozen maybe a few hundred people from Europe to demand refunds and if not take their money back via the banks and if EA does anything sue the bastards. The politicians will then side with their voters not a dying publisher who's grasping at straws.

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

3/11/13 2:16:03 PM#192
Hmm I think Microsoft have more money than ea. Doesnt stop the du hitting them with numerous anti trust rulings.
  Quailman

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/08/09
Posts: 164

3/11/13 2:16:04 PM#193
Originally posted by birdycephon
Originally posted by Quailman
Originally posted by birdycephon
Originally posted by Elikal
Originally posted by Thillian
Originally posted by birdycephon
Originally posted by Quailman
Originally posted by birdycephon
Originally posted by Thillian
Originally posted by Quailman
 

Oh bullshit. He paid for the game, he should be able to play it however he wants, whether the company that made it wants him to or not. As long as he's not freely distributing the game, he's not doing anything wrong.

I think legally, he didn't buy the game per se. He just bought a temporary access to the Sim City server, which may be suspended or even terminated at EA sole discretion, according to the EULA if you have read it.

 

Some people fail to understand that the only thing they bay is the plastic that is the disk, and/or the registration key that is essentially a proof of purchase. Everything else is the property of EA

And some people fail to understand how ridiculous that is. I can't believe there are consumers out there that actually think it's okay that we only "lease" games. When I buy a game, it's mine. I wil do whatever I want with it, barring sharing it to the public or getting profit from the publishers/developers work. Whatever I choose to do with it for personal use is my business, and I really don't care what you or any EULA has to say about it.

And that is exactly why we have DRM. 

Legally, when you buy a game like Sim City, its not yours. You do not own anything. You have gained a temporary access to the software and/or game servers, which at the sole discretion of EA, can be terminated.

Whether its right or wrong is a different matter. Your opinion only counts how you behave as a customer. If you bought it, you have no right to bitch about it. And as a matter of fact, I haven't bought Sim City and dont intend to do so until it's DRM free.

Err no.

The EU supreme court said otherwise just last year. ;)

Even download buy = legal owner with rights to resell.

If EA was a european company, then that would be true, however its not.

Any company that wishes to do business within a certain country, must comply with that country's consumer laws. EA is no exception.

Sure, enforce it then. If they had the balls, they would, but they love ther money too much, so tough luck with that.

So, you think that the EU does not enforce it's consumer laws? Is that what you're saying?

Consume. Be silent. Die.

  Dihoru

Elite Member

Joined: 1/11/06
Posts: 2427

3/11/13 2:22:11 PM#194
I'd shit myself laughing if a hacker group like Anon or Lulzsec takes down the EA servers =)) they'd be dead and nailed to a cross.

  olepi

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/15/07
Posts: 945

3/11/13 2:23:11 PM#195

When EQ first came out, I bought it because I liked RPG's. Then I discovered that you HAD to be logged in to play it, and I returned it for a refund LOL

Probably good in the end, I started playing DAOC after deciding I would play online.

But I will never buy a single player game that requires you to be logged in. SimCity type games are what I play when I'm OFFLINE, like on a plane.

------------
RIP City of Heroes. One of my favorite MMO's.

  birdycephon

Novice Member

Joined: 8/08/09
Posts: 1327

Not Safe For Woona (NSFW)

3/11/13 2:27:20 PM#196
Originally posted by Quailman
Originally posted by birdycephon
Originally posted by Quailman
Originally posted by birdycephon
Originally posted by Elikal
Originally posted by Thillian
Originally posted by birdycephon
Originally posted by Quailman
Originally posted by birdycephon
Originally posted by Thillian
Originally posted by Quailman
 

Oh bullshit. He paid for the game, he should be able to play it however he wants, whether the company that made it wants him to or not. As long as he's not freely distributing the game, he's not doing anything wrong.

I think legally, he didn't buy the game per se. He just bought a temporary access to the Sim City server, which may be suspended or even terminated at EA sole discretion, according to the EULA if you have read it.

 

Some people fail to understand that the only thing they bay is the plastic that is the disk, and/or the registration key that is essentially a proof of purchase. Everything else is the property of EA

And some people fail to understand how ridiculous that is. I can't believe there are consumers out there that actually think it's okay that we only "lease" games. When I buy a game, it's mine. I wil do whatever I want with it, barring sharing it to the public or getting profit from the publishers/developers work. Whatever I choose to do with it for personal use is my business, and I really don't care what you or any EULA has to say about it.

And that is exactly why we have DRM. 

Legally, when you buy a game like Sim City, its not yours. You do not own anything. You have gained a temporary access to the software and/or game servers, which at the sole discretion of EA, can be terminated.

Whether its right or wrong is a different matter. Your opinion only counts how you behave as a customer. If you bought it, you have no right to bitch about it. And as a matter of fact, I haven't bought Sim City and dont intend to do so until it's DRM free.

Err no.

The EU supreme court said otherwise just last year. ;)

Even download buy = legal owner with rights to resell.

If EA was a european company, then that would be true, however its not.

Any company that wishes to do business within a certain country, must comply with that country's consumer laws. EA is no exception.

Sure, enforce it then. If they had the balls, they would, but they love ther money too much, so tough luck with that.

So, you think that the EU does not enforce it's consumer laws? Is that what you're saying?

Didnt stop EA from publishing their game, did they? You know why? Cuz either there is no violation, or they dont care to enforce it.

  ianicus

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/08/06
Posts: 477

punch it chewie! RAAAAAAWR!

3/11/13 2:30:51 PM#197
people seem to be missing that point that the online requirement for SimCity 5 isnt just for DRM purposes, in fact, DRM is on the minor side of the online functionality of SimCity 5, in this game you city takes is place in a persistant world doe sit not, which is able to interact with other people cities? i for one think thats awesome, however EA did a very poor job of preparing for the loads.

  Dihoru

Elite Member

Joined: 1/11/06
Posts: 2427

3/11/13 2:34:32 PM#198
Originally posted by birdycephon
Originally posted by Quailman
Originally posted by birdycephon
Originally posted by Quailman
Originally posted by birdycephon
Originally posted by Elikal
Originally posted by Thillian
Originally posted by birdycephon
Originally posted by Quailman
Originally posted by birdycephon
Originally posted by Thillian
Originally posted by Quailman
 

Oh bullshit. He paid for the game, he should be able to play it however he wants, whether the company that made it wants him to or not. As long as he's not freely distributing the game, he's not doing anything wrong.

I think legally, he didn't buy the game per se. He just bought a temporary access to the Sim City server, which may be suspended or even terminated at EA sole discretion, according to the EULA if you have read it.

 

Some people fail to understand that the only thing they bay is the plastic that is the disk, and/or the registration key that is essentially a proof of purchase. Everything else is the property of EA

And some people fail to understand how ridiculous that is. I can't believe there are consumers out there that actually think it's okay that we only "lease" games. When I buy a game, it's mine. I wil do whatever I want with it, barring sharing it to the public or getting profit from the publishers/developers work. Whatever I choose to do with it for personal use is my business, and I really don't care what you or any EULA has to say about it.

And that is exactly why we have DRM. 

Legally, when you buy a game like Sim City, its not yours. You do not own anything. You have gained a temporary access to the software and/or game servers, which at the sole discretion of EA, can be terminated.

Whether its right or wrong is a different matter. Your opinion only counts how you behave as a customer. If you bought it, you have no right to bitch about it. And as a matter of fact, I haven't bought Sim City and dont intend to do so until it's DRM free.

Err no.

The EU supreme court said otherwise just last year. ;)

Even download buy = legal owner with rights to resell.

If EA was a european company, then that would be true, however its not.

Any company that wishes to do business within a certain country, must comply with that country's consumer laws. EA is no exception.

Sure, enforce it then. If they had the balls, they would, but they love ther money too much, so tough luck with that.

So, you think that the EU does not enforce it's consumer laws? Is that what you're saying?

Didnt stop EA from publishing their game, did they? You know why? Cuz either there is no violation, or they dont care to enforce it.

Or they are not aware of it yet... I wonder what would happen if people filled lawsuits against EA :-?

  birdycephon

Novice Member

Joined: 8/08/09
Posts: 1327

Not Safe For Woona (NSFW)

3/11/13 2:38:55 PM#199
Originally posted by ianicus
people seem to be missing that point that the online requirement for SimCity 5 isnt just for DRM purposes, in fact, DRM is on the minor side of the online functionality of SimCity 5, in this game you city takes is place in a persistant world doe sit not, which is able to interact with other people cities? i for one think thats awesome, however EA did a very poor job of preparing for the loads.

Agreed 

  Zorgo

Elite Member

Joined: 12/05/05
Posts: 2159

Who did wrong? The advertiser hired to sell the game or the consumer who put faith in advertising?

3/11/13 2:39:38 PM#200
Originally posted by birdycephon

So, you think that the EU does not enforce it's consumer laws? Is that what you're saying?

Didnt stop EA from publishing their game, did they? You know why? Cuz either there is no violation, or they dont care to enforce it.

Well, it could also be a modern strategy of a lot of large corporations.

If you break the law you will make 1 million dollars extra profit.

If you get caught you will pay a penalty of 5000 dollars.

So, if the object of your business is to maximize profits, would you:

a.  NOT make a million  dollars and feel like a proud law-abiding company?

- or -

b. Make a million dollars and pay a nominal fine.

*numbers solely for sake of example

_______________________________________________________

This is exactly what is happening on Wall Street after the fallout from the financial disaster they constructed.

They are being prosecuted and fined for their crimes which amount to chump change compared to what they made off of their fraud.

Therefore, they are continuing to break the law, but adding a line item to the plan to pay for the fine they may or may not incur for doing so. And hey, its good business sense, right? They make more money than anyone could spend in a lifetime or two or three and all it costs is the price of a ticket marked 'fine for fraud' - that and the economic stability of the planet.

Hopefully the EU has a more effective justice system than what is happening here.

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