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News & Features Discussion  » [Column] Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn: A Realm Rising?

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36 posts found
  SBFord

Associate Editor - News Manager

Joined: 6/28/10
Posts: 13705

 
OP  3/04/13 3:55:15 PM#1

Square Enix has been working hard to get the good news out about Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn over the past several weeks. But is it making a difference? In today's FFXI: ARR column, we answer that question. Take a look and then discuss the article in the comments.

For gauging larger interest in a topic, I really like Google Trends.  Google trends is an open access tool that provides a global, time specific pathway for all Google searches related to a topic or term.  The Trends analysis is set to index, so the 100 listing represents the highest volume of searches in the time period you look at.  For our first graphic, we’re looking at searches for FFXIV over the lifespan of the title.  Since FFXIV launched in 2010, I am starting our index in August, 2010 and running it through February, 2013.

Read more of Ryahl Smith's Eorzea Reborn: A Realm Rising?

Associate Editor: MMORPG.com
Follow me on Twitter: @MMORPGMom

  gaeanprayer

Novice Member

Joined: 8/06/08
Posts: 2360

3/05/13 10:14:34 AM#2

It doesn't surprise me, FF14 is fighting an uphill battle and this goes hand-in-hand with what I've said about it relauching as a new game entirely rather than with the stigma of it's first iteration. 

 

That they ever tried to sell the original game hurt them, it's practically offensive that anyone has to pay for something so obviously broken and unfinished. The only thing about it that wasn't incredibly amateur and beneath SQE were the graphics, and then only partially considering how much of the terrain was cloned. People are burned and many will never go back. Plus, they're keeping the sub model, something people are less and less willing to pay for thanks to the plethora of f2p/b2p options. Plus, FF MMOs were always a niche appeal in the first place. PLUS, the few people that did support FF14 are now leaving because they view the new iteration as a WoW clone.

 

This game can't and won't win. I actually feel no animosity anymore, at this point I just feel bad for them. They're clearly making an effort to try and fix past mistakes, but I doubt gamers will forgive them, we all tend to behave like women scorned with it comes to our video games. It's going to be a lot of money, time, talent and potential wasted. I hope I'm wrong, but I doubt it.

"Forums aren't for intelligent discussion; they're for blow-hards with unwavering opinions."

  CyclopsSlayer

Novice Member

Joined: 1/31/04
Posts: 532

3/05/13 10:44:51 AM#3

The biggest foe FFXIV is fighting amongst the crowd I know, is the feeling of Betrayal and Bait&Switch that came with the first launch.

An entire FFXI playing multi-game Guild my neighbor is in all bought Collectors editions way back when, during a recent internal poll there was NO interest in going back. Once burned, twice shy.

DDO is the only game I know of that has managed so far to recover at all after such a disasterous launch.

 
I do admit to checking it out, and running the performance checker, but I have no personal interest in reactivating my account.
  EternalSage2000

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/12/12
Posts: 27

3/05/13 10:55:59 AM#4

I would like to add to this discussion, and I pray this doesn't violate my NDA, but as an active participant in the Beta event,  the servers are full, and the global chat is happy.  I am one of the many who bought the Collectors Edition, and played for not much more than a month.  I want this game to succeed, and with how much effort Square has put into redeeming themselves,  I want to give them a second chance. 

Let it also be noted, that I no longer have the spare time to play MMO's like I did back in my WoW days.  I'm looking for something long term and slow paced.  In that way, I am sure I differ from many other gamers. 

It is an interesting graph you bring up.  I honestly thought the hype was higher,  of course not on GW2's level, but at least comparable to SWTOR or TSW.  Hopefully, if Square made things right, word of mouth will bring my fellow adventurers back. Much in the way that Rift acquired it's population.

  Vesavius

Old School

Joined: 3/08/04
Posts: 7356

Players come for the game, but they stay for the people- Most Devs have forgotten this.

3/05/13 11:31:52 AM#5
Originally posted by gaeanprayer

Plus, they're keeping the sub model, something people are less and less willing to pay for thanks to the plethora of f2p/b2p options.

 

I believe this is wrong. It will not cost players, who have already spent money on the game, *anything* to come back and see whats what. The sub model is irrelevant to how this game will do, especially in it's first month, and if it is good enough and retains folks that's how it will stay.

 

I would say that existing owners are likely to come back to satisy curiosity if nothing else,  and I also suspect many will have some inner need to recoup some value from the money they have already spent.

 

The game actually sold pretty well at launch, new servers are fun, folks love them, the work that SE have done is obvious, and the access for the first month is free. There is no reason for someone that owns the game to not check it out again.

 

As for the bitterness from the first go around... I don't believe gamers can be labelled as being close minded as you suggest as a group.  Some are, sure, and those that are are very vocal, but the whingers have always been a loud voice and not necessarily representative of any given point. Cool cynicism is always the easy default for some, but it does not mean it is a universal feeling by a long shot. It is hard to judge true feeling for a game from vocal complainers in a forum thread.

 

There are no barriers to this game building a healthy initial playerbase in reality, and all it will take is a raft of strong reviews to sell even more, which in turn will potentiolly bring yet more as the social network effect kicks in.  Do I think this game is sink proof this time? No. Or do I think it will have a player base of millions? No, ofc not. But do I think it has a strong chance of attracting and maintaining a healthy paying pop that will stay with it for years?

 

Yes, yes I do.

 
 
 
 
  jskeets916

Novice Member

Joined: 1/08/13
Posts: 160

3/05/13 12:25:55 PM#6
Originally posted by gaeanprayer

It doesn't surprise me, FF14 is fighting an uphill battle and this goes hand-in-hand with what I've said about it relauching as a new game entirely rather than with the stigma of it's first iteration. 

 

That they ever tried to sell the original game hurt them, it's practically offensive that anyone has to pay for something so obviously broken and unfinished. The only thing about it that wasn't incredibly amateur and beneath SQE were the graphics, and then only partially considering how much of the terrain was cloned. People are burned and many will never go back. Plus, they're keeping the sub model, something people are less and less willing to pay for thanks to the plethora of f2p/b2p options. Plus, FF MMOs were always a niche appeal in the first place. PLUS, the few people that did support FF14 are now leaving because they view the new iteration as a WoW clone.

 

This game can't and won't win. I actually feel no animosity anymore, at this point I just feel bad for them. They're clearly making an effort to try and fix past mistakes, but I doubt gamers will forgive them, we all tend to behave like women scorned with it comes to our video games. It's going to be a lot of money, time, talent and potential wasted. I hope I'm wrong, but I doubt it.

Thats a lot of speculation/assumptions culminating in some pretty absolute statements there...

This team has doubled down and anyone who significantly played 1.0 and has had an opportunity for alpha/closed beta could tell you this game is far from what is to be expected from the "niche" FF series.

Those who played 11/14 for the most part will still play while new gamers will enjoy the combat pace hastening and controls/camera viewing up to (if not surpassing) industry standards.

This game makes F2P games like GW2 look.... well free and you can definitely see the difference within 15 minutes of logging in the pedigree of game your playing.

All i'll be able to say is told ya so when open beta hits :).

 

 
  Ryahl

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/10/12
Posts: 47

Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam.

3/05/13 12:33:37 PM#7

Hey everyone, thanks for the read and comment!

 

Some thoughts on sub vs. 2P models.

 

I agree @Vesavius, I don't think the sub-model is as dead in space as @gaeanprayer argues.  Yes, TSW, TOR, TERA and a few others have had to F2P or B2P to stay afloat.  Yes, GW2 sold a lot of boxes as a B2P, certainly more than they would have as a sub-model.  However, RIFT, EVE and FFXI remain very viable sub-only titles not named WoW.  EVE is still growing after 10-years, how wild is that.

 

It's true that sub-models build a smaller playerbase than the 2P models, but subs build a much more predictable revenue model which is very helpful for budgeting and planning.  You can do well with less in a sub model. I am pretty sure that the folks over at EVE are fairly happy with their very predictable $7.5mm monthly revenue stream. 

 

What the sub-market needs are fewer MMO's trying to be WoW 2.0 and instead focusing on a good sub-worthy game and a lower target. Mark Jacobs ideas for Camelot Unchained are worthy of consideration here.  He's planning to build an MMO which will appeal to only a fraction of DAOC's subs (and DAOC was a 250k -ish sub game).  He's also got the business background within the industry to know what's sustainable for a small team.

 

The key point in the 2P vs. Sub discussion is this.  Your business model isn't the thing that will make or break you, your product is.  A sub model works and remains both viable and profitable, it just requires a different type of game than we have seen published in the last five years (RIFT as an exception perhaps).  

 

As to the issues on attracting back FFXIV 1.0 customers, @Vesavius hits a lot of important points.

 

- If you bought the original box, its worth your while to check into Beta4 and see what they have done.  You have nothing else out of pocket but for a download and a few hours.  If it's not worth it, toss it.  If it's worth it, you get to benefit from the industry's longest pre-order program (2.25 years and counting)

 

- My own analysis over at EorzeaReborn (see companion piece link in article) suggests that the FFXIV initial launch underperformed by as much as 2/3 of its "buzz."  Most of that is likely a reflection of how bad the open-beta for 1.0 went (no reflection or discussion of current product, that's the old product).  That's a large body of once-interested customers who were never impacted by the bad launch.

 

- Only looking at the End of an Era, it's pretty amazing what Yoshi's team did with the dud of an engine that 1.0 had.  I played around with FFXIV before it went offline (and had also played at launch).  The product they shut down in November, 2012 is a product I would have considered paying for (I wish I had gone back earlier to see it).  The one they launched with in 2010, not at all.

 

- They get a free "do over" with the PS3 launch.

 

The thing is, I don't think they could have ever released another FF MMO without fixing FFXIV.  With 14, you have people who have already bought a box.  You would have never sold any of those people a new FF15 box.  By going the FFXIV:ARR route, they get the only second chance they could possibly get.

 

Let's hope they deliver!

 

 

Ryahl - writer of eye-bleeders
FFXIV Fansite | TSWGuides
Follow me on Twitter

  Moridin82

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/27/12
Posts: 80

3/05/13 12:43:33 PM#8
really want test out this game. hope the do it well with there second chance..
  nbtscan

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/06/06
Posts: 479

3/05/13 1:19:13 PM#9

ARR seems to be getting some pushback from a vocal minority combined of 1.0 players who wants things to stay the same, and FFXI vets.  I think the majority of the people that played 1.0 like the changes that are taking place.

 

I've brought this up before in other threads and Ryahl touched on this too; this game has the FF IP, for better or for worse, to lean on.  I think first and foremost SE wants to retain as much of the playerbase they had from 1.0, then try to get people who have played the FF series to give it a try.  Changing the game's systems to be similar to those to current MMOs bring in general MMO players as a secondary benefit.  Last, and certainly not least, is the untapped potential of people who will try it on the PS3.

 

My main concern is what will happen with the general MMO players that come in and give this game a shot.  It's going to have to be rather impressive to someone who doesn't already like the game or is loyal to the FF IP to justify paying the subscription with there being plenty of F2P MMOs out there.  

 

I think there's plenty of features that this game has that are unique, but are also familiar in other games.  The familiarity of it (or "clone" as people like to say) could be what turns people away from it since there's already other games out there, some being free, that people are already invested in that they can't justify paying a subscription for ARR if it's too similar.

 

Those were some pretty interesting charts to look at, and hopefully ARR's popularity starts to spike closer to its release.  They really need to put out a commercial right before open beta is going to start for it, especially advertising the PS3 side of things.

 
  ZizouX

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/17/11
Posts: 667

3/05/13 1:37:22 PM#10

So long as there are enough players after launch to keep the game profitable and keep it updated for years to come, that's what i am looking for.

 

Yoshi-P has done an amazing job.  Without saying why I believe this (hint hint), trust me when I say ARR is a completely new game.  He;s also commented on free to play vs. buy to play.   they're keeping the option open, but the reason this game may never be a F2P is based on SE's business model.

 

Just like WoW, they don't have stockholders that dictate a certain amount of profit.  GW2 has to have cast shop items to make profit.  That is the ONLY way they make profit.  They have to incorporate cash elements in all of their design decisions.  GW2 can be very successful in its own model.

 

SE has dozens of projects goingn at any one time.  One game is not requires to make a certain amount of profit to keep stockholders happy.  The remake of ARR is based on keeping the FF name alive and well.  It is not taking the name for granted, as Yoshi suggested when FFXIV was released with Tanaka at the helm.

 

It's in SE's best interest to keep the game going, even if mediocre, because a mediocre mmo is above and beyond what it was.   As for me, without saying specifically why, ARR FEELS like a Final Fantasy through and through.  Many people will play it for that reason ALONE.  People ask, "What's so unique about an FF mmo?"  Most of us who've had their childhood playing FFs just wanted a persistent FF world to explore.  Finally, ARR is becomming that game.

Lastly, Japan is starved for a good mmo.  Arr fits the bill.  Having 200+k subs in japan will more than offset the cost of running and maintaining the game under a pay to play model.  Also, there are hints that it will be going to a PS4, after PS3 is release.  Another reason this game has more potential than your other, standard, western mmos.

 

I am 100% sure (without saying why), that I will be subbing to this game upon release.... and my position is not based on "wishful thinking" on what ARR will be.   I have a pretty solid foundation on what ARR is....

  rommello

Novice Member

Joined: 4/12/12
Posts: 204

hallo ~_~

3/05/13 1:58:41 PM#11

game world is well made, engine looks fantastic and is well optimized, but other than that get ready for......

 

tab tab tab 12345 tab tab 67890!

 

and dont forget the f1-12 keys!

hallo ~_~

  ZizouX

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/17/11
Posts: 667

3/05/13 2:13:08 PM#12

@rommello

 

I have no problem with that.  GW2 offers your "action based" combat, which is fun, but I don't want all mmos to have that model.  I enjoyed WoW combat immensely when I played and wouldn't mind Tab Targetting combat in a Final Fantasy universe.

 

I don't know, for some it doesn't matter what your'e fighting, but to me, Fighting Bahamut is emotionally more satisfying then fighting a random dragon in another mmo.   So long as the party play is fun, challenging, with nice boss mechanics... that's all I really care about.

  rommello

Novice Member

Joined: 4/12/12
Posts: 204

hallo ~_~

3/05/13 2:32:58 PM#13

isnt gw2 kind of the same deal tab targeting? but in a much better way from what i saw.

 

but anyway from what u say i think u will enjoy this game then since u enjoyed wow might as well switch over

 

hallo ~_~

  Ghavrigg

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/10/12
Posts: 727

3/05/13 2:40:34 PM#14
I can't wait for FFXIV: ARR to come out. It's really the only MMO I'm excited to play that is coming out soonish.
  RaveniaDarkfae

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/05/13
Posts: 2

3/05/13 2:56:34 PM#15

Hello, 

Honestly as non final fantasy fan. I know thi series pretty well. I think wht will help SE is marketing in the US first off. even if its just on youtube. But players need to help get the word out there. Like the videos, share them, promote the game if you feel its fun. Thats how most things are popular, word of mouth. Warcraft was just another mmo till youtbes Leeroy jenkins video became popular. So people tried the game, found it easy and enjoyed it.

And here are talking EVERYONE even non gamers.

 

A big reason Elder scrolls is popular is from word of mouth. 

 

As for pay to play vs free to play. There is no difference. At some point you NEED to pay. MMORPG need money to make content. They NEED money to keep theservers in check. People are ignorant of this fact and don't see a reason to pay money mountly for a game.

Infact, i played over 13 free to play mmorpg. I always found that i was forced to pay more for "mmorpg basics" then i would just paying a flat fee every month.

Take example of DCUO, you need to buy "content updates" listed as DLC for $10 hardly anything is added cept for 2 raids or something for pvp, you can't trade in DCUO unless you at least spend $5/ buy one of the dlc. You also have a money cap which you need to pay real money to tae money from your "saved up" money. You need to pay $10 for 5 of these treasure key or random boxes you get that give you stuff you can't buy. Such as auroas that further you character customization. Then you have all the stuff from the cash shop which is $3-$10 per item.  

If you totle everything up your looking at $100 or more a mth on stuff. So much for free huh?

Personally i rather spend $15 a month and get all the open to me. You even earn tokens to use on cash shop items.

To me free to play is like the old cell phone bills, you pay per set of minutes. Where as pay to play is a flat mnthly fee with unlimited min. 

Pay to play isn't dead, every game is pay to play in some form, they just use FREE as a marketing tool to get subs. People want to be he next "wow".

Also i found pay to play games offer better service when it comes to harrassment, bullying and the like. Most free games do not have "GM" or game masters who keep things in order.

 

Also when it comes to Guild wars, it started out really as an orpg like phantasy star universe. You just log in a lobby town, and go to instenced locations by yourself or with a party you make in the town. They just took out the lobby town and instenced maps out with gw2  try and make it an mmorpg.

 

Also, Youshida stated an MMOrpg needs to be built around a free to play model. Or it becomes an urelible source of income to keep the game active. Content is pumped out at a snails pace. Look at dcuo again, content is very... small. This game doesn't even feel like an mmorpg. All because the ps3 crowd demanded free to play going as far as hold in game protests preventing ppl from playing. 

Also, the game is worst off the ff14, the game such MUCH WORST copy pasta maps, only has 4-5 zones (a player can see everything in under 6 hours even as a level 1). and the cites are all but dead cept for quest locations which are a custer fk of mobs. I was in the DCUO beta, and most people refused to see the issues. They though Chris Cao was the second coming of jesus stating that 30 being the cap is a good thing, and that content updates will happenevery mnth to eep the game fresh. Saddly this never happen. DCUO had (according to wiki) 3 directors in 2 years.

Infact they stoped doing some of the holiday events simply cuz they can't fix them. Or just don;t care enough to release them. and in the first year alot of stuff as delayed (holiday events included) which is a first for me. Its like they used DCUO to maket a few movies WB did. Like captn america (dcuo has shield weapons) Also green lanterns powers.

If I compare the 2 FFXIV was MUCH BETTER then dcuo. Even though FFXIV was not great and had tech issues, DCUO took the cake. Infact basic gaming glitches happen. Like falling through the map (really... gaming is how old?) getting stuck in terrain due to super movement (again really?)  and some areas are still glitched. Infact i was playing last night, and circe a villians gear glitched making her appear nude. (it was funny though)

Anyway i digress sorry for wall of text.

  RaveniaDarkfae

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/05/13
Posts: 2

3/05/13 3:27:37 PM#16

Also when it comes to FFXIV: ARR i think it will be fine. It will have a good tutorial for new players, and as you level more choices are open to get exp. Like 1-10 you do quests to get to know the game. 11-15 you unlock the ability to do guildleve if you perfer killing mobs. (unless it gets chained it works like a "daily" quest or like FOV/GOV for u ffxi players) You also have a hunting log that each class/job can do to kill x numbr of mobs and you earn exp and gold fer each completion. At 15 you then start running dungeons which net you exp and loot.

Pretty much by 15 you have killing mobs, levequests, dungeons, and quests.

You also have FATE (similar to rifts, campeing battles, beseiged) and according to yoshida there may be up to 10 per zone. (don't  quote me) which also net you rewards. 

THEN you have 3 story archs that net you rewards and exp.

Pretty much 1-15 will have a decent amount of content.  Once you hit 30, you get you ob based on the class you pick and do those quests.  And crafting and gathering are its own classes(which got revamped) Personally this game will have alot to do just in the base release (the biggest issue in mmo)

An what makes FFXIV:ARR unique?  few things

1 Multiclasses class one character (only ff11 does this)

2 cross platform mix play.  FFXIV:ARR ps3 and pc will share servers.

3 no region locking, though the new ffxiv server will have datacenters in regions u can pick anyone you want. I played ffxi and never saw to much of a lag or ping difference even though the servers were in japan.

4 One of the last few mmorpg that promote group play. Most mmo now a days promote solo or solo like play. or pseudo group play.

5: chocobo raising and using them in battle. If you and a friend say need to do a 4 person dungeon and can't find other ppl you can call you chocobos to serve as party members (and you can dress them in attier befitting their roll)

And simple put its an ffmmo there only ff11 as an mmo outside ff14.

But really does games HAVE TO be unique? there is only so much you can do before the ganre is no longeris what it is. RPG needs to be an RPG. Plus they adding stuff from past ff games and yoshidda has been very open about accepting other ideas. He is a big mmo fan himself and play games like gw2 and wow. But from what I've seen, he been very open in communication, not many devs do so.

 

So i think that unqiue as well. 

  BegaTasy

Novice Member

Joined: 11/15/11
Posts: 31

3/05/13 3:53:35 PM#17

The thing that will hert the game long term is I think, making it a wow clone. If they do that it will bite them in arse bigtime. All MMO's copy wow these days, an it has made the industry a laughingstock. When wow was the bottom of the barrel for diversity an utterly simplisitic gameplay that a 5 year old could exell at. I just hope that Square In stick to their guns an make an FF game NOT a wow clone.

For me, I am dieing to get back into FF, after leaving FFXI many years ago over frustration at bots at all NM spots, I miss playing with the JP crowd, who were far more friendly than the western players.

edit
I do have a quick Question, an it is a little off topic, but I "hope" the anamosity between the NA an JP players has gone these days ?, I know in FFXI on my server there was a real hardcore race war going on with some countries/NA hating the JP, an the JP players blocking the NA from playing with them. It was not nice to see to say the least.has that all gone these days?
 
  ZizouX

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/17/11
Posts: 667

3/05/13 4:36:19 PM#18

People that make these "WoW clone claims."  Any of you actually play the beta?  People may complain aboust quest based leveling but is a shallow comparison to ARR.

 

In FFXIV, one character can be all classes.  When you level 1 class by questing, THOSE QUESTS ARE FOREVER UNAVAILABLE.  In Wow, when you level a second class, you do the SAME QUESTS over and over again.

 

In FFXIV:ARR, to level a second class, you have to select another nation starting area, do leves, do dungeons, go guildhests, do the hunting log, or form XP parties ala FFXI.

 

That is the extent of the Wow comparison for questing.  The only similarity to the combat is that it's tab targeting.  A Dozen other mmo's are tab targetting... Tab targetting exited before WoW.  Tab targetting is one of two combat mechanism a game can use (the other being action combat ala TERA and GW2).

If th game has a responsive UI, with FUN PvE content, with big bosses and nicely designed PVE encounters... then PLEASE make it a WoW clone.  For anyone that has played Beta in depth, there are a million more things that are different than similar to WoW.  You can quote me on that. (crating, gathering, choco raising, housing, gardening, etc etc.)

 
  Jockan

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/03/08
Posts: 4180

Looking forward to Black Desert, Kingdom Under Fire II and Skyforge.

3/05/13 4:44:10 PM#19
This game will not be a mainstream success and I am well aware of that. Its going to have a small loyal fanbase that wants a mmo with more of an old school type of play style. My only concern is the sub fee that it will have. With so many free to play games out there will this game be that good to keep people paying a fee every month. I recently said that I dont think there will ever be another sub based game that launches and grows to be a succesful mmo. I hope this game proves me wrong.
 

  nbtscan

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/06/06
Posts: 479

3/05/13 4:50:00 PM#20
Originally posted by BegaTasy

The thing that will hert the game long term is I think, making it a wow clone. If they do that it will bite them in arse bigtime. All MMO's copy wow these days, an it has made the industry a laughingstock. When wow was the bottom of the barrel for diversity an utterly simplisitic gameplay that a 5 year old could exell at. I just hope that Square In stick to their guns an make an FF game NOT a wow clone.

For me, I am dieing to get back into FF, after leaving FFXI many years ago over frustration at bots at all NM spots, I miss playing with the JP crowd, who were far more friendly than the western players.

edit
I do have a quick Question, an it is a little off topic, but I "hope" the anamosity between the NA an JP players has gone these days ?, I know in FFXI on my server there was a real hardcore race war going on with some countries/NA hating the JP, an the JP players blocking the NA from playing with them. It was not nice to see to say the least.has that all gone these days?
 

Yoshida has said that there will be really challenging content in the game, so I don't think you have to worry about it being totally watered down.  Even if the battle system resembles WoW that doesn't mean it's going to be a clone of it.

As far as the JP vs NA thing, yeah it still exists.  It's simply a language barrier issue though.  JPs don't think NAs suck; it's just easier for them to communicate with their native language since the auto-translation tool isn't sophisticated enough to strategize a fight.  For content that's not very challenging I don't think JPs would mind partying up with other language speakers though.  I used to do it all the time for Behest, which was just a public type of quest where people grouped up and killed random stuff.

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