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Hardware  » PS4 Hardware details from AMD

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33 posts found
  Nitth

Elite Member

Joined: 7/29/10
Posts: 3200

Magic Propels my Rolly Chair.

3/05/13 1:58:20 AM#21


Originally posted by fivoroth
A mid-range PC can't compare to the new PS4.

Problem is a mid range computer will eventually be better than a ps4.

Ive herd this "more power is better" for many many years now and all comes down to the fact that a console is a: lounge room mostly family friendly gaming appliance.

If they games are good, Who cares how many flops it can pull?


TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development

  Gravarg

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 8/24/06
Posts: 3055

3/05/13 2:05:34 AM#22
the fundamental flaw of consoles is that they can't be upgraded, while computers can, and fairly easy and cheaply.  I know over the years they upgrade and refine the console, but you're stuck with which ever version you bought.
  Southpaw.Gamer

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/25/08
Posts: 578

Full Sail University - Game Design Student

3/05/13 2:15:15 AM#23

My only complaint is that Console Developers do not seem to think of the future... they do... but they are planning a future from when they come up with their next system.  Not the future AFTER release of said system.  8 GB Memory is now the STANDARD in any gaming PC.  I understand that theirs is DDR5 which isn't even in PCs yet.. but how much faster is it really than our current DDR3?

 

Could they have not doubled the Memory?

 

Mouse and keyboard support for those of us that prefer K/M over a controller?

 

We'll see.  I just hope to see some launch titles that are not holding the system back by also working with the PS3.

 

 

Full Sail University - Game Design

  charlespayne

Novice Member

Joined: 1/17/05
Posts: 370

3/05/13 2:25:09 AM#24

What people dont seem to realise is pc's and console's are completly diff, for 1 pc use windows so thay require more power to run the games as windows also uses up resources where consoles dont,

8GB of mem in a pc is still plenty and more then enough for any type of game, The 8GB in the ps4 is GDDR5, So it is alot faster then DDR3 mem and the most expensive graphic card that cost 8k only has 6GB GDDR5,

Consoles cant be upgraded becouse it gives developers a easyer road for making games as thay dont worry about if you can run it or not, Since the ps4 has 8GB GDDR5 and a powerful cpu and gpu it gives them a tonne of power to play with,

With a pc Developers are still limited on power becouse biggest part of gamers dont have the money for a top end gaming mashine so thay have to develop games so mid range players can also play, To put windows on a console you might as well buy a media center for your TV, Since consoles arnt desiged for windows and windows requires hardware drivers it would make PC games impossible to run.

  fivoroth

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 11/10/06
Posts: 2630

3/05/13 3:32:30 AM#25
Originally posted by Nitth

 


Originally posted by fivoroth
A mid-range PC can't compare to the new PS4.


 

Problem is a mid range computer will eventually be better than a ps4.

Ive herd this "more power is better" for many many years now and all comes down to the fact that a console is a: lounge room mostly family friendly gaming appliance.

If they games are good, Who cares how many flops it can pull?

That's the thing too many people ignore. It's not about the specs. It's about what games you can play. And consoles have a much wider variety of AAA games released on them. I can only think of a few AAA games which don't make it to the consoles. Hell, even Pc developers like Blizzard are entering the console market. Do I need to say how many AAA games don't come to the PC? I have sooooo many games whidh I love playing and they were never released on the PC.

Entire genres are not being released to the PC. Fighting games never get released to the PC. Racing simulators like Forza, GT. Games like MetalGearSolid, Halo, God of War, Gears of War. The list is veeeeeery long. I am not saying that there are no PC exclusives. But this is why I have a PC and a console so I can play whatever I want. I don't want to limit myself by being a blind fanboy who fails to see reason.

Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.

  Quizzical

Guide

Joined: 12/11/08
Posts: 13175

3/05/13 10:52:22 AM#26
Originally posted by Southpaw.Gamer

My only complaint is that Console Developers do not seem to think of the future... they do... but they are planning a future from when they come up with their next system.  Not the future AFTER release of said system.  8 GB Memory is now the STANDARD in any gaming PC.  I understand that theirs is DDR5 which isn't even in PCs yet.. but how much faster is it really than our current DDR3?

 

Could they have not doubled the Memory?

 

Mouse and keyboard support for those of us that prefer K/M over a controller?

 

We'll see.  I just hope to see some launch titles that are not holding the system back by also working with the PS3.

I can assure you that Sony is very much thinking about the future.  The choice of going with integrated graphics that could be in the same chip as the CPU is proof of this.  This won't bring such great benefits in the initial launch model, but once you can do a die shrink perhaps a year after launch or so, the cost savings will be huge.

-----

The PS4 will have 176 GB/s of memory bandwidth.  Dual channel 1866 MHz DDR3, which would be fairly high end for system memory in a gaming desktop, gets you a little under 30 GB/s.  So yes, that's a big difference.  The PS4's memory bandwidth is mostly needed to feed the integrated graphics rather than the CPU, however.

You seem not to realize that games can't really make good use of that much more system memory.  Sure, having 4 GB available to you rather than 2 GB would let you be sloppier with your coding, but what else does it offer?  The ability to cache a bunch of textures in system memory in case the video card needs them later?  Getting 8 GB in a gaming rig today already constitutes doubling what you need for futureproofing reasons.

The 8 GB of memory in the PS4 is available both as video memory and system memory, which means games can easily have 6 GB of video memory available if they want it.  And that does have a clear benefit:  very high resolution textures.  Lots of them.  See if you can find a $425 desktop video card with 6 GB of video memory.  Just the video card at that price, even, not a complete desktop.

  Quizzical

Guide

Joined: 12/11/08
Posts: 13175

3/05/13 10:56:40 AM#27
Originally posted by fivoroth
Originally posted by Nitth

 


Originally posted by fivoroth
A mid-range PC can't compare to the new PS4.


 

Problem is a mid range computer will eventually be better than a ps4.

Ive herd this "more power is better" for many many years now and all comes down to the fact that a console is a: lounge room mostly family friendly gaming appliance.

If they games are good, Who cares how many flops it can pull?

That's the thing too many people ignore. It's not about the specs. It's about what games you can play. And consoles have a much wider variety of AAA games released on them. I can only think of a few AAA games which don't make it to the consoles. Hell, even Pc developers like Blizzard are entering the console market. Do I need to say how many AAA games don't come to the PC? I have sooooo many games whidh I love playing and they were never released on the PC.

Entire genres are not being released to the PC. Fighting games never get released to the PC. Racing simulators like Forza, GT. Games like MetalGearSolid, Halo, God of War, Gears of War. The list is veeeeeery long. I am not saying that there are no PC exclusives. But this is why I have a PC and a console so I can play whatever I want. I don't want to limit myself by being a blind fanboy who fails to see reason.

The hardware specs affect what games are made for a console--and for PC.  What consoles offer that PCs don't is robust DRM for single-player games.  Having 90% of your players pirate your game instead of paying for it isn't terribly profitable, but that's what will probably happen if you release a single-player game for PC without very strong always-online DRM or something to that effect.

As for AAA games that don't make it to consoles, how about nearly every MMORPG ever made?

Blizzard started on consoles (more specifically, the SNES), and later moved to PC.

  Ezhae

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/03/06
Posts: 734

3/05/13 11:05:21 AM#28
Originally posted by Quizzical
Originally posted by Vrika

I'm starting to wish they'd just let people install Windows to PS4. Then use mouse, keyboard, monitor, and completely replace their desktop computer.

The problem is that Sony will probably lose money on every PS4 that they sell.  The plan is to make it up by taking a cut of game sales.  But that doesn't happen if you let users install Windows and play games where Sony doesn't get a cut of the sales.

The other problem with using it for a Windows gaming PC is that the low single-threaded performance will mean that badly-coded games that don't scale well to many CPU cores won't run well.  There are more than a few such games out there.

Plus PS4 uses GDDR5 as shared memory as opposed to PCs running on dedicated DDR3 system memory. GDDR has higher latency comapred to DDR which means any CPU focused tasks will be slower, so not really that good for OS like Windows. 

  Ridelynn

Elite Member

Joined: 12/19/10
Posts: 3319

3/05/13 11:09:40 AM#29

The PS3 and 360 right now have made due with very little memory: the PS3 256M of system RAM and 256M VRAM, the 360 with 512M of shared RAM (similar to how the PS4 will share it's 8G between the CPU and GPU).

Going from 256M to upwards of 8G is a rather large bump. It also means we may start to see 64-bit executables on the PC; while the PS3 and 360 were 64-bit PPC CPU's, the fact that they were different architectures meant that games had to be cross-compiled anyway, and with the low RAM limitations on the consoles, the PC versions would similarly have low RAM requirements, and would just be cross-compiled for additional backwards compatibility. Now, we may actually see programmers make use of more than 2G of RAM (and subsequently the PC ports would almost require 64-bit versions) - and then again, maybe we won't.

  Ridelynn

Elite Member

Joined: 12/19/10
Posts: 3319

3/05/13 11:36:17 AM#30


Originally posted by Quizzical
The hardware specs affect what games are made for a console--and for PC.  What consoles offer that PCs don't is robust DRM for single-player games.  Having 90% of your players pirate your game instead of paying for it isn't terribly profitable, but that's what will probably happen if you release a single-player game for PC without very strong always-online DRM or something to that effect.

Well, you can say the popularity is because of DRM (which isn't necessarily true, all consoles have been hacked and piracy is still a problem), but then the developers just point to second-hand sales.

But you are right, the developers love consoles because of the control it offers. You have a static hardware base that gets subsidized to the end user, you have a very controlled and quarantined environment for your title to run in, there are strict quality controls on the software and subsequent updates, and it is much more difficult to pirate (but hardly impossible).

There are a lot of problems for developers for consoles as well, it's not all roses, but the biggest gripe tends to be second-hand sales, which publishers seem to regard as nearly the same thing as piracy, since someone else is playing their game but didn't pay the developer.

Reality is that console games sell better than PC games. So that's where developers put their money. And lately mobile gaming has been getting the traction, so that's where developers have been focusing lately. PC gaming - relatively stagnate. It's expensive to get the hardware, it's expensive to keep up with the hardware, the hardware is fragmented and runs a very wide gamut, support is difficult to maintain due to the millions of extraneous variables - the only nice thing is that your development tools all run on PC's anyway, and it's easy to distribute on.

So my take on it isn't that it's easier to develop on the console, or that piracy is less, or that hardware is more controlled: it's just that console games sell better, and publishers follow the money. If you want more games on the PC, buy more games on the PC. The old "Vote with your dollar" mantra (although I realize that as an individual, you only have so many dollars with which to vote, it takes a concerted, combined effort, and the democracy of capitalism is such that usually the least expensive, most convenient, lowest common denominator product usually wins out).

Maybe it's just types of games, but here are a few examples from titles that are released on the major consoles and PC:

BF3 360 Sales top PS3 + PC combined
Skyrim: 360 7M, PS3 4.5M, PC 2.8M
Crysis 3
COD: Black Ops 2 - the PC barely beats Wii U
Pretty much every game, it's 360 in the lead, PS3 a bit more than half as much again, and PC way way behind.

The only real exception seems to be MMOs - there have been console MMOs (PSO, FFXI, DCUO, EQOA, upcoming FFXIV, Defiance), but not nearly as many as on the PC - probably due to the reliance of text output (chatboxes and such), which has never really translated well to the television.

Maybe if consoles could get into the Account mindset that PC Online games have - your account is the real commodity, not the software download or the disc. That would kill second-hand sales (not that people don't sell their accounts, but sales of those can be disallowed and banned/disabled via EULA, whereas second-hand CD/DVD sales are protected by First Sale Doctrine), but that would require consoles to open up their network access, and not extort the developers for using connectivity (XBL tax).

  Quizzical

Guide

Joined: 12/11/08
Posts: 13175

3/05/13 12:27:35 PM#31
Originally posted by Ezhae
Originally posted by Quizzical
Originally posted by Vrika

I'm starting to wish they'd just let people install Windows to PS4. Then use mouse, keyboard, monitor, and completely replace their desktop computer.

The problem is that Sony will probably lose money on every PS4 that they sell.  The plan is to make it up by taking a cut of game sales.  But that doesn't happen if you let users install Windows and play games where Sony doesn't get a cut of the sales.

The other problem with using it for a Windows gaming PC is that the low single-threaded performance will mean that badly-coded games that don't scale well to many CPU cores won't run well.  There are more than a few such games out there.

Plus PS4 uses GDDR5 as shared memory as opposed to PCs running on dedicated DDR3 system memory. GDDR has higher latency comapred to DDR which means any CPU focused tasks will be slower, so not really that good for OS like Windows. 

Do you know how big of a difference the memory latency is?

Some desktop architectures that use DDR3 memory have substantially higher memory latency than others, so it's not just DDR3 versus GDDR5.

  Quizzical

Guide

Joined: 12/11/08
Posts: 13175

3/05/13 12:35:23 PM#32
Originally posted by Ridelynn

 


Originally posted by Quizzical
The hardware specs affect what games are made for a console--and for PC.  What consoles offer that PCs don't is robust DRM for single-player games.  Having 90% of your players pirate your game instead of paying for it isn't terribly profitable, but that's what will probably happen if you release a single-player game for PC without very strong always-online DRM or something to that effect.

 

Well, you can say the popularity is because of DRM (which isn't necessarily true, all consoles have been hacked and piracy is still a problem), but then the developers just point to second-hand sales.

But you are right, the developers love consoles because of the control it offers. You have a static hardware base that gets subsidized to the end user, you have a very controlled and quarantined environment for your title to run in, there are strict quality controls on the software and subsequent updates, and it is much more difficult to pirate (but hardly impossible).

There are a lot of problems for developers for consoles as well, it's not all roses, but the biggest gripe tends to be second-hand sales, which publishers seem to regard as nearly the same thing as piracy, since someone else is playing their game but didn't pay the developer.

Reality is that console games sell better than PC games. So that's where developers put their money. And lately mobile gaming has been getting the traction, so that's where developers have been focusing lately. PC gaming - relatively stagnate. It's expensive to get the hardware, it's expensive to keep up with the hardware, the hardware is fragmented and runs a very wide gamut, support is difficult to maintain due to the millions of extraneous variables - the only nice thing is that your development tools all run on PC's anyway, and it's easy to distribute on.

So my take on it isn't that it's easier to develop on the console, or that piracy is less, or that hardware is more controlled: it's just that console games sell better, and publishers follow the money. If you want more games on the PC, buy more games on the PC. The old "Vote with your dollar" mantra (although I realize that as an individual, you only have so many dollars with which to vote, it takes a concerted, combined effort, and the democracy of capitalism is such that usually the least expensive, most convenient, lowest common denominator product usually wins out).

While it's true that many types of games will get better sales on consoles than PC (and that is what publishers directly care about), the reason for it is that your potential customers are relatively more likely to buy it for console versus pirate it for PC.

DRM doesn't have to be perfect to work.  If you make it hard enough to pirate a game that it's easier to just buy it, you've won.  DRM doesn't have to last forever, either.  The difference between your DRM getting cracked a week after the game launches and two days before it launches is huge.

  Quizzical

Guide

Joined: 12/11/08
Posts: 13175

3/05/13 5:24:54 PM#33
Originally posted by Southpaw.Gamer

Could they have not doubled the Memory?

Upon further review, it's entirely possible that they couldn't have doubled the memory.  The GDDR5 memory standard normally breaks each 64-bit memory channel into two 32-bit connections, which means you have to have two memory chips per channel.  It gives you the option of breaking it into four 16-bit connections, which allows you to use four chips per channel.  Four channels times four chips per channel means that you're capped at 16 chips.

Right now, the largest capacity GDDR5 memory chips are 2 Gb, which comes to 256 MB.  16 such chips gets you to 4 GB.  That's probably why rumors initially had the PS4 as only having 4 GB of memory, not 8 GB.  There will presumably be 4 Gb = 512 MB chips coming eventually, and 16 of those gets you 8 GB in total.  For that matter, they'd have to be coming soon, not just eventually, in order for Sony to be willing to rely on them.

How would you get to more than 8 GB of memory even if you wanted to?  There are three ways:  add more memory channels, wait a few years to launch it, or use DDR3 instead.  The second of those is a non-starter for obvious reasons.  The third means you'll kill your performance by not having enough memory bandwidth for the GPU.  The first adds greatly to the cost, which is why only top end GPU chips ever have more than four memory channels--and plenty of high end cards have only had four, even.

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