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Diablo 3

Diablo 3 

General Discussion  » Analysis of the Dev reply to Gosu

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27 posts found
  Sibcoe

Novice Member

Joined: 11/27/12
Posts: 60

 
OP  3/02/13 6:52:02 PM#1

Hi guys -

 

We posted up some thoughts about this over on the RTG channel:

 

D3 Devs v Gosu - an analysis of the dev response

 

Check it out and let us know what you think about our breakdown of the dev response.  

 

Cheers 0/

RTG Sibcoe
-----------
http://www.youtube.com/redteamgaming
http://www.twitter.com/redteamgaming
http://www.facebook.com/Sibcoe

  Banaghran

Novice Member

Joined: 1/17/12
Posts: 872

3/03/13 9:46:22 AM#2

Dunno, recent blizz has a history in spin and promises, could be a sham (again), i mean, if they can spin the "thousands separator"...

HOWEVER, you were right with some points in your video, where you say that this is the line of thinking "we" want to see from a d3 dev, and this is what will be probably wasted on most of the community here, the difference between "we increased the rate of 6 affix drops" and "we like to increase drop QUALITY and decrease the amount".

The only thing i want to disagree with is the "information age" strawman, there is a looong way between knowing the optimal build and being willing and able to use it, that is where the devs slack off these days in respect of system depth, the ww barb or cm wiz is just too good, the problem is not that everyone knows it is existing, everyone is able to spam buttons and there is no other drawback.

Flame on!

:)

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19793

3/03/13 9:24:20 PM#3
Originally posted by Banaghran
The only thing i want to disagree with is the "information age" strawman, there is a looong way between knowing the optimal build and being willing and able to use it, that is where the devs slack off these days in respect of system depth, the ww barb or cm wiz is just too good, the problem is not that everyone knows it is existing, everyone is able to spam buttons and there is no other drawback.

Don't make it soudn like CM is the only build wiz plays. In fact, there are many (archon is also popular, with at least 2 main variant), and there are plenty of Meteor, Blizz, and even disintegration build (just go to the official D3 forum for a look).

And even CM build (and others) have quite a few skill variations to use.

 

  Banaghran

Novice Member

Joined: 1/17/12
Posts: 872

3/03/13 11:18:58 PM#4
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Banaghran
The only thing i want to disagree with is the "information age" strawman, there is a looong way between knowing the optimal build and being willing and able to use it, that is where the devs slack off these days in respect of system depth, the ww barb or cm wiz is just too good, the problem is not that everyone knows it is existing, everyone is able to spam buttons and there is no other drawback.

Don't make it soudn like CM is the only build wiz plays. In fact, there are many (archon is also popular, with at least 2 main variant), and there are plenty of Meteor, Blizz, and even disintegration build (just go to the official D3 forum for a look).

And even CM build (and others) have quite a few skill variations to use.

 

Where did i say that?

Go lash out somewhere else. :)

Flame on!

:)

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19793

3/04/13 12:26:46 PM#5
Originally posted by Banaghran
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Banaghran
The only thing i want to disagree with is the "information age" strawman, there is a looong way between knowing the optimal build and being willing and able to use it, that is where the devs slack off these days in respect of system depth, the ww barb or cm wiz is just too good, the problem is not that everyone knows it is existing, everyone is able to spam buttons and there is no other drawback.

Don't make it soudn like CM is the only build wiz plays. In fact, there are many (archon is also popular, with at least 2 main variant), and there are plenty of Meteor, Blizz, and even disintegration build (just go to the official D3 forum for a look).

And even CM build (and others) have quite a few skill variations to use.

 

Where did i say that?

Go lash out somewhere else. :)

Flame on!

:)

In that case, you agree there are many builds wiz play, and build diversity is great in D3?

  adam_nox

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/31/06
Posts: 2068

3/04/13 12:32:22 PM#6

I just realized something, why is there no quick-reply box at the end of a topic page?

 

Anyways, couldn't be bothered to watch the vid, but D3 isn't about builds.  Builds determine about 10% of your effectiveness at end game.  Uber stupid gear determines the rest.  You can seriously play MP10 with the gimpiest build possible as long as you have the gear.

 

That's what I perhaps dislike most about D3.

  Banaghran

Novice Member

Joined: 1/17/12
Posts: 872

3/04/13 3:09:48 PM#7
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Banaghran
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Banaghran
The only thing i want to disagree with is the "information age" strawman, there is a looong way between knowing the optimal build and being willing and able to use it, that is where the devs slack off these days in respect of system depth, the ww barb or cm wiz is just too good, the problem is not that everyone knows it is existing, everyone is able to spam buttons and there is no other drawback.

Don't make it soudn like CM is the only build wiz plays. In fact, there are many (archon is also popular, with at least 2 main variant), and there are plenty of Meteor, Blizz, and even disintegration build (just go to the official D3 forum for a look).

And even CM build (and others) have quite a few skill variations to use.

 

Where did i say that?

Go lash out somewhere else. :)

Flame on!

:)

In that case, you agree there are many builds wiz play, and build diversity is great in D3?

I didnt say that either, whether there is variety or not is meaningless in respect of the point i was trying to make.

If you want to go trough gear, mechanics, ej, percentages and affixes once more so that you can again stop replying, we can, but preferably in a different thread.

Flame on!

:)

  nbtscan

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/06/06
Posts: 462

3/04/13 3:17:21 PM#8

Haven't played this in a while, but back around 1.0.3, the only thing that mattered was a high dps weapon and armor with main stat, stam and resistance.

No Youtube access at work so I'm not sure what the video was about.

  User Deleted
3/04/13 11:47:52 PM#9
Originally posted by nbtscan

Haven't played this in a while, but back around 1.0.3, the only thing that mattered was a high dps weapon and armor with main stat, stam and resistance.

No Youtube access at work so I'm not sure what the video was about.

Just go to the D3 forums and click the forums, it should be displayed on the active threads list.

All this is, is a really detailed analysis of whats wrong with D3, but not in the drooling mouthbreather typical trolling fashion.

Its actually quite good. It was good enough, and sane enough of a post to get a game developer, not a moderator, to respond in the thread with a fairly detailed response.

The jist of his reponse is basically they are working on ways to liven up build diversity, which imo, is never something ARPG games do well since the most efficiant build will be the only one anyone uses, and there are a few varying builds you see around that work just fine.  Also mentioned was itemization.

This is where the post shines imo.  The guy broke down what exactly is wrong with D3 gear, what stats are important, and why so much gear is worthless despite perhaps being good gear. The response was mostly they are working on cool gear effects, and he agrees that the way items are valued are based on a few stats that everyone needs, which only appear on certain items.  This means that aside from your classes main stat, the rest of the gears stats is pretty much interchangable granted a few class specific acceptable gear stats. 

 

In all honesty, i do think the developers see theres issues, and i dont think they would ever quickly fix something without really thinking it through then fully testing them extensivly. Which is why im sure the issues stated havent really been addressed other than what appear to be easy fixes.

I wish it wasnt this way, but its really looking like its going to be like D2 was, an ok game that became a legend years later due to a fantastic expansion. Still has hands down the best combat and combat mechanics, and the best multiplayer, which is why i keep comming back to it over some of the other games.

  User Deleted
3/04/13 11:51:52 PM#10

Oh, and btw, great video and anlysis, i was actually expecting a snarky D3 suck response...rare to see actual discussion outside of the game.

 

 

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19793

3/05/13 12:11:07 PM#11
Originally posted by nbtscan

Haven't played this in a while, but back around 1.0.3, the only thing that mattered was a high dps weapon and armor with main stat, stam and resistance.

 

It is not true anymore.

1) stat needs is different from different builds. Example

- wiz CM build .. need high attack speed, and crit. In fact, people are advised NOT to look at their sheet DPS.

- wiz archon build ... need high DPS

2) there are also "gimick build" based on legendary affix. Example:

- wd zero dog build ... using some legendaries to reduce zombie dog CD to 0, and use sacrifice to blow them up as homing missiles. I run this build .. very fun, and very different.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19793

3/05/13 12:17:40 PM#12
Originally posted by Crunchy222

The jist of his reponse is basically they are working on ways to liven up build diversity, which imo, is never something ARPG games do well since the most efficiant build will be the only one anyone uses, and there are a few varying builds you see around that work just fine.  Also mentioned was itemization.

I actually think build diversity is pretty good in D3. In fact, it is one of the reason why i still play the game. While there are efficient builds that a lot of people use (CM wiz, and WW barb for example), there are also a lot of other builds people are using. You just need to read the official forum to see that. Just off the top of my head

Wiz

- CM SNS .. standard most popular build

- Meteor

- Archon (almost as popular as CM) with at least 2 variant

  - perma archon doing low MP

  - hybrid archon (i use mostly) doing high MP

- disintegration

- some new blizz build (because blizz is buffed)

- blade build (i play with this one and it is fun)

The efficiency differences are not that great and depends a lot on what you are comfortable with.

WD

- your standard zombie bear high dps build

- acid rain build for paragon leveling

- zero dog build (I love this one)

 

I am less familiar with the builds of other classes (i do have a WW barb, and i know you can do weapon throw, and HoTA barb) but you get the idea.

  User Deleted
3/05/13 9:12:15 PM#13

That blogpost regarding itemization is up.

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/blog/8953696/developer-journal-itemization-update-3-5-2013

 

In a nut shell

 

Legendaries are losing the bottom 75% of their roll range.  So a legendary that now has a range of rolling 1-100 on a stat will now have a chance to roll 75-100, eliminating those "wtf" bad legendaries...which now is about 99% of them.

Clutter rares are going to be reduced, not sure if they are getting the same legendary treatment, but, rares will be rare, and good.

 

They are keeping the AH but want to make the focus of gearing yourself mob found items. In all reality, if they got rid of the bottom level rolls like they suggested, removed bad stat pairings that no one would ever use, and making rares decent and legendaries...well legendary...peole wouldnt need to use the AH, however those short on time, or without alts, might still use it...

I actually like playing the AH, not RMAH (too lazy to get authenticator) but i see this as effectivly killing it off, which...fine with me just something to do between runs tbh.

 

Also talk of the highest rolls comming off the higher level mobs, not sure if that means youll be getting the best drops off elites and bosses rather than white mobs, or if that refers to inferno having the better drops.

 

This all isnt in the next patch, but i believe mob density is, which will add some variety to where people farm, and tbh, high mob density is a blast in this game.

 

It seems they are slow to move but seem to be headed in the right direction.

  Banaghran

Novice Member

Joined: 1/17/12
Posts: 872

3/06/13 1:44:41 AM#14
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by nbtscan

Haven't played this in a while, but back around 1.0.3, the only thing that mattered was a high dps weapon and armor with main stat, stam and resistance.

 

It is not true anymore.

1) stat needs is different from different builds. Example

- wiz CM build .. need high attack speed, and crit. In fact, people are advised NOT to look at their sheet DPS.

- wiz archon build ... need high DPS

2) there are also "gimick build" based on legendary affix. Example:

- wd zero dog build ... using some legendaries to reduce zombie dog CD to 0, and use sacrifice to blow them up as homing missiles. I run this build .. very fun, and very different.

1) is not true (or "not true long enough for most players"), as you grow with power you will more and more be similar to everyone else, due to no real choice (there are no gloves with 20%crit instead of 10%crit 30%critdamage) and additive diminishing returns with too many affixes possible on too many slots, even most legendaries follow this formula, that is why some of those are that clear of a choice (lacuni).

2)not enough of these

(I guess we can go all the way, again...)

Flame on!

:)

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19793

3/06/13 10:49:31 AM#15
Originally posted by Banaghran
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by nbtscan

Haven't played this in a while, but back around 1.0.3, the only thing that mattered was a high dps weapon and armor with main stat, stam and resistance.

 

It is not true anymore.

1) stat needs is different from different builds. Example

- wiz CM build .. need high attack speed, and crit. In fact, people are advised NOT to look at their sheet DPS.

- wiz archon build ... need high DPS

2) there are also "gimick build" based on legendary affix. Example:

- wd zero dog build ... using some legendaries to reduce zombie dog CD to 0, and use sacrifice to blow them up as homing missiles. I run this build .. very fun, and very different.

1) is not true (or "not true long enough for most players"), as you grow with power you will more and more be similar to everyone else, due to no real choice (there are no gloves with 20%crit instead of 10%crit 30%critdamage) and additive diminishing returns with too many affixes possible on too many slots, even most legendaries follow this formula, that is why some of those are that clear of a choice (lacuni).

2)not enough of these

(I guess we can go all the way, again...)

Flame on!

:)

1) You are wrong. People at end game keep different sets of gear for different build. For example, wiz offhand .. trium has more dps but no APOC, or it is not BIS (no matter how the roll is) for CM wiz. CM wiz are all on Chan offhand, and archon are on trium.

This is end game gear we are talking about.

There are many examples like this. You just don't know the game well enough.

2) not enough? Since it is better than all other games i have played, i will say they are succcessful in that. Certainly better than WOW, EQ, ....

 

 

  thinktank001

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/13/08
Posts: 1861

3/10/13 2:45:19 PM#16
Originally posted by nariusseldon

1) You are wrong. People at end game keep different sets of gear for different build. For example, wiz offhand .. trium has more dps but no APOC, or it is not BIS (no matter how the roll is) for CM wiz. CM wiz are all on Chan offhand, and archon are on trium.

This is end game gear we are talking about.

There are many examples like this. You just don't know the game well enough.

2) not enough? Since it is better than all other games i have played, i will say they are succcessful in that. Certainly better than WOW, EQ, ....

 

 

Those are not different builds.  They all rely on the 3 same stats to work.   D3 is completely broken and there really isn't anything the developers can do to fix it without a scrapping the current systems.    

 

 

  Purutzil

Elite Member

Joined: 10/02/11
Posts: 2860

The Critical Hit Pretzel!

3/10/13 2:59:23 PM#17
The customization... yeah... D2 sure has nostologia and has its issues but it CAN be done right. Path of exile does a good job updating it and making it work. Theres very few PoE builds that are exactly the same, particularly when it comes to how you get the job done. That and crazy odd builds are still quite fun in PoE and you always see new builds turning out. I have not yet followed a cookie cutter build and every time I make the character again (dieign in HC) I always tend to change it up each time and I do build based off what issues I have at the time.
  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19793

3/11/13 12:51:02 PM#18
Originally posted by thinktank001

 

 

Those are not different builds.  They all rely on the 3 same stats to work.   D3 is completely broken and there really isn't anything the developers can do to fix it without a scrapping the current systems.    

 

 

LOL .. CM WW and archon are not different builds? Have you played the game?

3 same stats .. you are kidding me. CM WW requires APOC and AS. Archon builds don't need a sinlge point of APOC. And we haven't even get to mitigation vs iAS and stuff yet.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19793

3/11/13 12:53:46 PM#19
Originally posted by Purutzil
The customization... yeah... D2 sure has nostologia and has its issues but it CAN be done right. Path of exile does a good job updating it and making it work. Theres very few PoE builds that are exactly the same, particularly when it comes to how you get the job done. That and crazy odd builds are still quite fun in PoE and you always see new builds turning out. I have not yet followed a cookie cutter build and every time I make the character again (dieign in HC) I always tend to change it up each time and I do build based off what issues I have at the time.

I am enjoying PoE too. I just hope that it has a little more polish. I like the skill gems (and combo around that) much more than the big chart thing.

  Banaghran

Novice Member

Joined: 1/17/12
Posts: 872

4/11/13 1:48:30 AM#20
Originally posted by nariusseldon

1) You are wrong. People at end game keep different sets of gear for different build. For example, wiz offhand .. trium has more dps but no APOC, or it is not BIS (no matter how the roll is) for CM wiz. CM wiz are all on Chan offhand, and archon are on trium.

This is end game gear we are talking about.

There are many examples like this. You just don't know the game well enough.

2) not enough? Since it is better than all other games i have played, i will say they are succcessful in that. Certainly better than WOW, EQ, ....

 

 

1) i am not, that you see the HUGE benefit of 1-2% of dps or 1-3 item pieces swap when you are above 100-150k dps is the problem here,we are again in the ej area

And dunno bout my experience with the game, you could be very well right, but it sound like a wierd argument since you seem to behave the same way as people that obsessed with and seeked top dps blue weapons at the beginning of d3 only to find out that they are constantly dying...

2) if it is better that all the other games you have played, then you either have failing memory (and we all go there), or your game choices must have been very unfortunate

As for eq and wow, you are not trying to pretend this problem does not exist, in wow especially?

And ofcourse proper mmorpgs offer distractions to make up for this lack of choices, that is why in a arpg or especially diablo game the (relative) lack of these choices is much more pressing and significant.

Flame on!

:)

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