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General Discussion  » Hypocrisy of faction pride in TESO

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124 posts found
  Nitth

Elite Member

Joined: 7/29/10
Posts: 3069

Magic Propels my Rolly Chair.

3/03/13 6:31:19 AM#101


Originally posted by SoMuchMass

Originally posted by Maelwydd

Originally posted by evilastro

 
  Exactly, the game has been designed from the ground up as a 3 faction realm vs realm focused game. If this doesn't appeal to you, no amount of complaining or entitled demands will change it now. Just sit back and wait for the next single player Elder Scrolls.
Actually a 3 faction RvR game would be cool...if they didn't butcher, uneccessarily, the things about a TES game that make it a TES game.
What makes a TES game a TES game is the lore, period.  The devs can make a fighthing game with TES lore and it would be a TES game.  A TES game is what Bethesda says is a TES game not what you say is a TES game.

Bethesda-Zenimax continues to make TES games because players buy said games.

because they like how the product is. change the product and run the risk of customer loss.


TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development

  Maelwydd

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/26/09
Posts: 948

3/03/13 8:30:11 AM#102
Originally posted by SoMuchMass
 

Exactly.

Not every game has to be for you, obviously some don't like the way TESO is designed.  So don't play it, play the MMOs you like, simple.

This to me is the problem. If too many people follow this advice another GREAT IP will be lost and probably never resurface. I want a TES MMO, a good one. I don't want the IP lost to make a quick buck. Sure I still have the SPG games and that is fine. But I would love a TES game made into an MMO. This isn't a TES game made into an MMO but a DAOC ripoff with a TES skin.

Until more information is released that changes the currently released stuff then that is just how it is. The game might well be great, might well be a great Themepark MMO but it isn't what I want to a TES MMO. So yes, if it doesn't change I will not buy it or play it. If enough have the same opinion the game might fail, making further investments appear riskier and thus no more games. Being a lover of games I think that is a bad thing. Lets hope I am wrong and all the fans that don't like the design are wrong too. Because if too many are not wrong then it is a bad thing.

  Maelwydd

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/26/09
Posts: 948

3/03/13 8:34:36 AM#103
Originally posted by SoMuchMass

 

What makes a TES game a TES game is the lore, period.  The devs can make a fighthing game with TES lore and it would be a TES game.  A TES game is what Bethesda says is a TES game not what you say is a TES game.

Have you ever considered, just for a moment, that Bethesda are happy with how the MMO is being developed because Todd Howard doesn't like MMO's, is probably working on teh next SP TES game and would probably make more sales if Zenimax release a stinker?

BTW Zenimax are making the game not Bethesda.

  jtcgs

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/28/04
Posts: 1843

3/03/13 8:50:13 AM#104
Originally posted by jedensuscg

The thing that really upsets me, is that they are dictating how us, as players, should develop faction pride. Instead of letting us find our own path, our own reason to join and fight for the faction we chose, they force this on you.

In the end, this faction pride us less about your own personal feelings, and comes down to "This is my highest level character, so this is my faction"

 DaoC was the first dumbed down MMORPG. It came right after Anarchy Online, one of the most difficult and was shortly followed by SWG, completely open.

You will NEVER convience someone that played DaoC as their first MMORPG that anything BUT closed RvR produces "pride" because they knew no better.

You take someone that played The Realm, Meridian 59, Ultima Online, EverQuest, Asherons Call, Anarchy Online, Star Wars Galaxies or even one of the Korean MMOs FIRST...they will LAUGH at the very thought that you must seperate races and have magical walls protecting each faction land while fighting you war in neverland in order to create "faction pride" or longevity.

Best part about it, they will respond with something they do KNOW is complete BS in order to defend it...really love the "but DaoC is STILL running and thats PROOF it works"...even though they know there are far more MMOs still going that are OLDER and dont have closed factions/races/lands.

Closed faction RvR did not take off for a reason...was one of the worst aspects of DaoC to everyone but its small rabid fanboy base and they will never understand the feel of real PvP, running into the enemies city and trying to own it...or the thrill of entering the enemies lands alone, trying to get as deep into it as you can.

TESO, the war for neverland where your kids and all you know are safe at home and some leader takes you to a far away place and makes you fight for him because you actually have no real reason to fight, since your home is not being threatened!

“I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson

  SoMuchMass

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/16/13
Posts: 583

3/03/13 1:38:39 PM#105
Originally posted by Maelwydd
Originally posted by SoMuchMass

 

What makes a TES game a TES game is the lore, period.  The devs can make a fighthing game with TES lore and it would be a TES game.  A TES game is what Bethesda says is a TES game not what you say is a TES game.

Have you ever considered, just for a moment, that Bethesda are happy with how the MMO is being developed because Todd Howard doesn't like MMO's, is probably working on teh next SP TES game and would probably make more sales if Zenimax release a stinker?

BTW Zenimax are making the game not Bethesda.

Todd Howard doesn't like making MMOs he prefers making what he is currently doing.  He never said he doesn't like MMOs. Second, the company that owns everything TES came up with the idea of making a TES MMO.  Again, they own it they call the shots.  They can make a RTS with TES lore and it would be a TES game.

  SoMuchMass

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/16/13
Posts: 583

3/03/13 1:44:05 PM#106
Originally posted by jtcgs
Originally posted by jedensuscg

The thing that really upsets me, is that they are dictating how us, as players, should develop faction pride. Instead of letting us find our own path, our own reason to join and fight for the faction we chose, they force this on you.

In the end, this faction pride us less about your own personal feelings, and comes down to "This is my highest level character, so this is my faction"

You take someone that played The Realm, Meridian 59, Ultima Online, EverQuest, Asherons Call, Anarchy Online, Star Wars Galaxies or even one of the Korean MMOs FIRST...they will LAUGH at the very thought that you must seperate races and have magical walls protecting each faction land while fighting you war in neverland in order to create "faction pride" or longevity.

It doesn't have to have seperate races and have magical walls, but this game does and so did DAoC.  Not all games are alike.  I rather have different type of MMOs than everything being the same.  I am fed up of the same old two faction or one faction, this is something new and fresh.  And before anyone brings up DAoC, 99% of the current MMO population has never played DAoC.

Having seperate faction, races, classes gives you identity in the world.  You identify with various subsets within the game and feel a belonging.  It doesn't have to be three faction it would be even better with more factions.

  jtcgs

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/28/04
Posts: 1843

3/03/13 2:15:39 PM#107
Originally posted by SoMuchMass

It doesn't have to have seperate races and have magical walls, but this game does and so did DAoC.  Not all games are alike.  I rather have different type of MMOs than everything being the same.  I am fed up of the same old two faction or one faction, this is something new and fresh.  And before anyone brings up DAoC, 99% of the current MMO population has never played DAoC.

Having seperate faction, races, classes gives you identity in the world.  You identify with various subsets within the game and feel a belonging.  It doesn't have to be three faction it would be even better with more factions.

 No just no. This isnt "like daoc" it IS DaoC, and its being MADE by the same guys that made DaoC. It isnt "new", its OLD. NEW would be sandbox like SWG...because there hasnt been one since then and no I dont count Eve because Eve is in space. You are sick of two or one factions? Go play Warhammer...oh wait, that was also made by the makers of DaoC.

Also...when did I say dont have 3 factions?.

We dont like this crap because its about their inability to make a game DIFFERENT than DaoCs highly flawed closed off faction zone, PvP in a box design that didnt catch on for a REASON. If a game maker SHOWS he cant make anything based on a different design, they PROVE THEY ARE TRAPPED IN A BOX CREATED WITH THEIR FIRST GAME! Not to mention the fact that makes the game even less TES in nature when we KNOW FOR A FACT that an MMO can be made allowing us to chose a side or even SWITCH sides after creation...

Hell, even Raph Koster, a man I cannot STAND ONE LITTLE BIT managed to make games very different from one another and I even used ONE of them as an example here...SWG.

And lastly, NO having seperate factions, races, classes gives you NOTHING that NOT having them doesnt also give...you are saying that every game that DOES NOT HAVE IT has not given ANYONE any identity, something 99% of the people that have played MMOs would laugh in your face IRL about. Welcome to being what the title says.

I have no desire to play inside someone else's little box where the RP in RPG doesnt stand for Role Playing YOUR Role, but THEIR Role.

I, I want to have a character that was a Human slave to the Dominion, sent to do his masters work that eventually runs away to Skyrim only to come back and kill his master...but no, this short sighted closed minded BS that ruined DoaC will make it what most MMOs are today...a piss poor online RPG on a rail made by developers that have little skill in creating a game that allows the player to play in a world on their own so instead hold the players hand and leads them every step of the way...because even according to them, without clear faction identity, the player would be TOO STUIPID to know who the enemy is.

“I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson

  pantheron

Novice Member

Joined: 1/13/08
Posts: 172

3/03/13 2:47:14 PM#108
It makes me laugh that TESO is going to lock you into a faction, when a F2P japanese MMO can figure out how to offer your choice and have 3 factions, Law, Chaos, and Neutral, decided by the decisions you made in the game. I never PvP'd in that game, well, because I don't enjoy PvP in the least. It also has Free skill development. hell its closer to a TES game than TESO.  Personally i've always disliked TES games because i found them aimless, but I'm sad for  fans who feel this doesn't do their fandom justice. 

I play MMOs for the Forum PVP

  SoMuchMass

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/16/13
Posts: 583

3/03/13 3:11:09 PM#109
Originally posted by jtcgs
Originally posted by SoMuchMass

It doesn't have to have seperate races and have magical walls, but this game does and so did DAoC.  Not all games are alike.  I rather have different type of MMOs than everything being the same.  I am fed up of the same old two faction or one faction, this is something new and fresh.  And before anyone brings up DAoC, 99% of the current MMO population has never played DAoC.

Having seperate faction, races, classes gives you identity in the world.  You identify with various subsets within the game and feel a belonging.  It doesn't have to be three faction it would be even better with more factions.

 No just no. This isnt "like daoc" it IS DaoC, and its being MADE by the same guys that made DaoC. It isnt "new", its OLD. NEW would be sandbox like SWG...because there hasnt been one since then and no I dont count Eve because Eve is in space. You are sick of two or one factions? Go play Warhammer...oh wait, that was also made by the makers of DaoC.

Also...when did I say dont have 3 factions?.

We dont like this crap because its about their inability to make a game DIFFERENT than DaoCs highly flawed closed off faction zone, PvP in a box design that didnt catch on for a REASON. If a game maker SHOWS he cant make anything based on a different design, they PROVE THEY ARE TRAPPED IN A BOX CREATED WITH THEIR FIRST GAME! Not to mention the fact that makes the game even less TES in nature when we KNOW FOR A FACT that an MMO can be made allowing us to chose a side or even SWITCH sides after creation...

Hell, even Raph Koster, a man I cannot STAND ONE LITTLE BIT managed to make games very different from one another and I even used ONE of them as an example here...SWG.

And lastly, NO having seperate factions, races, classes gives you NOTHING that NOT having them doesnt also give...you are saying that every game that DOES NOT HAVE IT has not given ANYONE any identity, something 99% of the people that have played MMOs would laugh in your face IRL about. Welcome to being what the title says.

I have no desire to play inside someone else's little box where the RP in RPG doesnt stand for Role Playing YOUR Role, but THEIR Role.

I, I want to have a character that was a Human slave to the Dominion, sent to do his masters work that eventually runs away to Skyrim only to come back and kill his master...but no, this short sighted closed minded BS that ruined DoaC will make it what most MMOs are today...a piss poor online RPG on a rail made by developers that have little skill in creating a game that allows the player to play in a world on their own so instead hold the players hand and leads them every step of the way...because even according to them, without clear faction identity, the player would be TOO STUIPID to know who the enemy is.

Opinions are opinions.  The PvE in this game is nothing like DAoC.  The RvR is and the world set up is.  2 faction games that come out in the future won't be WoW 2.0.  There are flaws with many games including popular games like WoW.  If a new game comes out with 2 factions it isn't old design.  There is nothing flawed about closed off faction zones, it is just a different way to design the world.  

Yes seperate factions, races and classes give you identity.  It might not for you but I love it.  I like the different races per faction in any MMO.  I liked Vanilla WoW and Shamans on Horde and Pallies on the Alliance.

You are looking for a MMO to be made in the same mold as every other MMO in the market today.  I am ready for something different.  One faction open world MMOs have failed recently.  Two faction open world MMOs have failed recently.  There is no one forumla for MMOs.

And here is the thing, if you "have no desire to play" don't play it.  This game is not for you.  And nothing you or the rest say will change anything.

  CthulhuPuffs

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/03/13
Posts: 360

Will consume your soul, yet stay crunchy in milk

3/03/13 3:24:03 PM#110

 

The 3 Factions fighting over Cyrodill ala DAOC sounds great, but Im not big on the Faction=Race lock and the segregated PvE zones.

Id rather see a more open Elder Scrolls game.

Probably gonna give this one a pass

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Games Played: Too Many

  Pewpsockemz

Novice Member

Joined: 5/01/08
Posts: 35

3/03/13 3:34:35 PM#111
I would be more worried about it being a good game than anything else. Cause who cares if the game isn't good? And who would care if the game is awesome? These posts come up all the time and it won't matter at all if the game fails and if it fails because of this reason then it wouldn't have been good anyways.
  SoMuchMass

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/16/13
Posts: 583

3/03/13 3:59:47 PM#112
Originally posted by Pewpsockemz
I would be more worried about it being a good game than anything else. Cause who cares if the game isn't good? And who would care if the game is awesome? These posts come up all the time and it won't matter at all if the game fails and if it fails because of this reason then it wouldn't have been good anyways.

This exactly.  But people generally want to have something to complain about and for ESO they latched on to  this, it happens with every single MMO.

People need to realize devs are not creating a game for them or one person.  It might not fit your "vision" of what an MMO should be.  But you aren't making the game, they are. You play a game based on their vision and design.  You don't have to play it if you feel it isn't the right thing to do, play games with the design you prefer.

  jtcgs

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/28/04
Posts: 1843

3/03/13 4:07:14 PM#113
Originally posted by SoMuchMass
Originally posted by Pewpsockemz
I would be more worried about it being a good game than anything else. Cause who cares if the game isn't good? And who would care if the game is awesome? These posts come up all the time and it won't matter at all if the game fails and if it fails because of this reason then it wouldn't have been good anyways.

This exactly.  But people generally want to have something to complain about and for ESO they latched on to  this, it happens with every single MMO.

People need to realize devs are not creating a game for them or one person.  It might not fit your "vision" of what an MMO should be.  But you aren't making the game, they are. You play a game based on their vision and design.  You don't have to play it if you feel it isn't the right thing to do, play games with the design you prefer.

 THis isnt just any other MMO...this is a game using the TES name. Just like people got rabid over the massive pile of poodoo that is SWTOR bastardizing KOTOR and just like people got rabid over LoTRo causing a trainwreck with the lore.

When you take an existing IP, mess with its fans, you not only betray them, you stand a chance of ruining the IP to the point it can hurt the FUTURE of that IP.

If you take an IP, you either make it for the fans of that IP or you dont use it. This game is clearly not being made for TES fans, its being made for DaoC fans. Idiocy all around, but not suprising coming from the people making it since they have shown no ability to create any other kind of MMO.

“I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson

  SoMuchMass

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/16/13
Posts: 583

3/03/13 4:08:11 PM#114
Originally posted by jtcgs
Originally posted by SoMuchMass

Opinions are opinions.  The PvE in this game is nothing like DAoC.  The RvR is and the world set up is.  2 faction games that come out in the future won't be WoW 2.0.  There are flaws with many games including popular games like WoW.  If a new game comes out with 2 factions it isn't old design.  There is nothing flawed about closed off faction zones, it is just a different way to design the world.  

Yes seperate factions, races and classes give you identity.  It might not for you but I love it.  I like the different races per faction in any MMO.  I liked Vanilla WoW and Shamans on Horde and Pallies on the Alliance.

You are looking for a MMO to be made in the same mold as every other MMO in the market today.  I am ready for something different.  One faction open world MMOs have failed recently.  Two faction open world MMOs have failed recently.  There is no one forumla for MMOs.

And here is the thing, if you "have no desire to play" don't play it.  This game is not for you.  And nothing you or the rest say will change anything.

[mod edit]

The info is released.  This game will have raids and the traditional dungeon system.  The game will have quests like Skyrim and other MMOs.  The world design and RvR is like DAoC and that is an excellent thing, I want to see something different instead of the stale old thing over and over and over again.

People can "laugh" at themepark games all they like, while I laugh at the population of so called "sandbox" games.  People always say they want "sandpark" but they don't know what they are talking about.  Most people asking for sandpark games are playing Themeparks anyway.

[mod edit]
  SoMuchMass

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/16/13
Posts: 583

3/03/13 4:11:23 PM#115
Originally posted by jtcgs
Originally posted by SoMuchMass
Originally posted by Pewpsockemz
I would be more worried about it being a good game than anything else. Cause who cares if the game isn't good? And who would care if the game is awesome? These posts come up all the time and it won't matter at all if the game fails and if it fails because of this reason then it wouldn't have been good anyways.

This exactly.  But people generally want to have something to complain about and for ESO they latched on to  this, it happens with every single MMO.

People need to realize devs are not creating a game for them or one person.  It might not fit your "vision" of what an MMO should be.  But you aren't making the game, they are. You play a game based on their vision and design.  You don't have to play it if you feel it isn't the right thing to do, play games with the design you prefer.

 THis isnt just any other MMO...this is a game using the TES name. Just like people got rabid over the massive pile of poodoo that is SWTOR bastardizing KOTOR and just like people got rabid over LoTRo causing a trainwreck with the lore.

When you take an existing IP, mess with its fans, you not only betray them, you stand a chance of ruining the IP to the point it can hurt the FUTURE of that IP.

If you take an IP, you either make it for the fans of that IP or you dont use it. This game is clearly not being made for TES fans, its being made for DaoC fans. Idiocy all around, but not suprising coming from the people making it since they have shown no ability to create any other kind of MMO.

lol at the use of "betray", there is nothing of that sort here.  People are taking video games a little too seriously.  Zenimax that owns the IP is willing to take that risk, it is their choice their MMO.  Players don't own it but have a sense of entitlement to it for some reaosn.

As both a TES fan and a DAoC fan this game is a dream come true.  It hits on the parts of TES that I love the questing and PvE and hits on the PvP I love in DAoC, the perfect marriage.  Can this game fail as hard as GW2 and SWTOR? Absolutely, but only if it is a bad game.

  rojo6934

Elite Member

Joined: 8/13/09
Posts: 4546

"It is double pleasure to deceive the deceiver". - Niccolo Machiavelli

3/03/13 4:12:37 PM#116
i love when game developers promote the creation of alts and give enough varied content to avoid repeating the exact same content with every alt. However, i really dislike when portions of the world are restricted to some races. At least in TESO ill have plenty of alts. Ill have most likely one of each race in every faction because to me there is zero faction pride in the map restriction they added. So ill get the best of all three worlds, specially if im paying for the game, duh!

"in peace, in sleep under the barren, abandoned soil"

  jtcgs

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/28/04
Posts: 1843

3/03/13 4:27:48 PM#117
Originally posted by SoMuchMass

The info is released.  This game will have raids and the traditional dungeon system.  The game will have quests like Skyrim and other MMOs.  The world design and RvR is like DAoC and that is an excellent thing, I want to see something different instead of the stale old thing over and over and over again.

 So if the information is released please tell me how PvE in TESO is nothing like DaoC. Saying "raids" does not make it unlike DaoC because memory recalls getting a 10 man and later 6 to take on the Kracken during the short time I played on Albion...and saying quests are like skyrim and other MMOs makes me question how Skyrims quests are like "other MMOs".

You are arguing a point without actually providing anything for your argument.

“I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson

  Zaskar70

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/26/13
Posts: 22

Whatever blows your hair back...

3/03/13 4:34:52 PM#118
Originally posted by jtcgs
 

 DaoC was the first dumbed down MMORPG. It came right after Anarchy Online, one of the most difficult and was shortly followed by SWG, completely open.

You will NEVER convience someone that played DaoC as their first MMORPG that anything BUT closed RvR produces "pride" because they knew no better.

You take someone that played The Realm, Meridian 59, Ultima Online, EverQuest, Asherons Call, Anarchy Online, Star Wars Galaxies or even one of the Korean MMOs FIRST...they will LAUGH at the very thought that you must seperate races and have magical walls protecting each faction land while fighting you war in neverland in order to create "faction pride" or longevity.

Best part about it, they will respond with something they do KNOW is complete BS in order to defend it...really love the "but DaoC is STILL running and thats PROOF it works"...even though they know there are far more MMOs still going that are OLDER and dont have closed factions/races/lands.

Closed faction RvR did not take off for a reason...was one of the worst aspects of DaoC to everyone but its small rabid fanboy base and they will never understand the feel of real PvP, running into the enemies city and trying to own it...or the thrill of entering the enemies lands alone, trying to get as deep into it as you can.

TESO, the war for neverland where your kids and all you know are safe at home and some leader takes you to a far away place and makes you fight for him because you actually have no real reason to fight, since your home is not being threatened!

Why would you claim that DAOC's faction based RvR never "took off" when the numbers prove otherwise?

Looking at MMOData it seems that Anarchy Online never broke 70k subs and for a 3 year period from 2002 to 2005 carried from 20k to 40k peak subs.

Ultima Online peaked at 250k subs and carried between 200k and 250k between 2000 and 2004 at it's peak.

Star Wars Galaxies hit 300k at peak and carried between 250k and 300k subs at it's peak between 2003 and 2005.

DAOC peaked at 250k subs and held between 200k to 250k at its peak between 2002 and 2005.

A very telling statistic is Warhammer Onlines initial 800k sub spike, one could argue that MMORPG gamers were VERY interested in what they thought would be another DAOC style RvR game.

These numbers tell me that DAOC's style was far from the failure you claim that it was for an RvR or PvP MMO.  Was it something you personaly didnt like? perhaps but looking at the rest of the gaming community it was well recieved.

  SoMuchMass

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/16/13
Posts: 583

3/03/13 4:34:52 PM#119
Originally posted by jtcgs
Originally posted by SoMuchMass

The info is released.  This game will have raids and the traditional dungeon system.  The game will have quests like Skyrim and other MMOs.  The world design and RvR is like DAoC and that is an excellent thing, I want to see something different instead of the stale old thing over and over and over again.

 So if the information is released please tell me how PvE in TESO is nothing like DaoC. Saying "raids" does not make it unlike DaoC because memory recalls getting a 10 man and later 6 to take on the Kracken during the short time I played on Albion...and saying quests are like skyrim and other MMOs makes me question how Skyrims quests are like "other MMOs".

You are arguing a point without actually providing anything for your argument.

PvE in TESO will be more like WoW. It is a pretty simple concept to comprehend.  Questing in TESO will be a mix of Skyrim and WoW.  TESO and DAoC will be as simliar as WoW is to DAoC.  If you want to strech the similiarites that much all MMORPGs are the same.

What points have you provided, other than old rehashed baseless arguments?

  Horusra

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/26/05
Posts: 1803

3/03/13 5:36:02 PM#120
Originally posted by Zaskar70
Originally posted by jtcgs
 

 DaoC was the first dumbed down MMORPG. It came right after Anarchy Online, one of the most difficult and was shortly followed by SWG, completely open.

You will NEVER convience someone that played DaoC as their first MMORPG that anything BUT closed RvR produces "pride" because they knew no better.

You take someone that played The Realm, Meridian 59, Ultima Online, EverQuest, Asherons Call, Anarchy Online, Star Wars Galaxies or even one of the Korean MMOs FIRST...they will LAUGH at the very thought that you must seperate races and have magical walls protecting each faction land while fighting you war in neverland in order to create "faction pride" or longevity.

Best part about it, they will respond with something they do KNOW is complete BS in order to defend it...really love the "but DaoC is STILL running and thats PROOF it works"...even though they know there are far more MMOs still going that are OLDER and dont have closed factions/races/lands.

Closed faction RvR did not take off for a reason...was one of the worst aspects of DaoC to everyone but its small rabid fanboy base and they will never understand the feel of real PvP, running into the enemies city and trying to own it...or the thrill of entering the enemies lands alone, trying to get as deep into it as you can.

TESO, the war for neverland where your kids and all you know are safe at home and some leader takes you to a far away place and makes you fight for him because you actually have no real reason to fight, since your home is not being threatened!

Why would you claim that DAOC's faction based RvR never "took off" when the numbers prove otherwise?

Looking at MMOData it seems that Anarchy Online never broke 70k subs and for a 3 year period from 2002 to 2005 carried from 20k to 40k peak subs.

Ultima Online peaked at 250k subs and carried between 200k and 250k between 2000 and 2004 at it's peak.

Star Wars Galaxies hit 300k at peak and carried between 250k and 300k subs at it's peak between 2003 and 2005.

DAOC peaked at 250k subs and held between 200k to 250k at its peak between 2002 and 2005.

A very telling statistic is Warhammer Onlines initial 800k sub spike, one could argue that MMORPG gamers were VERY interested in what they thought would be another DAOC style RvR game.

These numbers tell me that DAOC's style was far from the failure you claim that it was for an RvR or PvP MMO.  Was it something you personaly didnt like? perhaps but looking at the rest of the gaming community it was well recieved.

If anything most PvP heavy oriented games are failures.  Most people, from looking at server pops and game pops, show that the masses do not want an open world gankfest pvp game.  You want to "kill" an IP then make one focused on PvP open world.

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