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General Discussion  » Hypocrisy of faction pride in TESO

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124 posts found
  Maelwydd

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/26/09
Posts: 1133

2/26/13 5:44:47 AM#61
HEAD <----> BRICK WALL
  jedensuscg

Novice Member

Joined: 1/18/06
Posts: 212

 
OP  2/26/13 5:49:47 AM#62
Originally posted by Crazyhorsek
Originally posted by Maelwydd
Originally posted by Crazyhorsek

Mael,

by the way dude... in Skyrim the Empire is not "at war with the nords". There is no war between the Empire and Skyrim. The "war" is the Empire vs a tiny little silly faction called "The Stormcloaks" which, if you did play the game to its fullest, you'd see that they're NO WAY supported by most of the nords.

Even when you start the game you'll hear that guy from Riverwood say "Skyrim has always been part of the empire and the empire was always good for Skyrim" - this doesnt sound like a "war" now does it?

Shock horror!

You mean not ALL Nords got involved?

You mean the fight between the Imperials was with a SUBSET of the Nord race called the stormcloaks?

Don't you see the problem with the design of TESO?

 

 

Well... different ages, different settings.

My country always fought back the countries that border it - today we're allies in NATO and part of a failure called "European Union"... but like I said, we fought eachother for millenia, the last century alone we had 2 world wars that started in Europe and placed us fighting eachother again - so Europe only has been at peace for 70 years.

Whats your point? You mean that EU peace is against the EU Lore? or Nato goes against the "Lore"?

lol... dude things change with the times...

Ok lets just remove the war and PvP aspect all together and look at it this way.

All the TES games comibined span several centuries if I am not mistaken, yet they all have one thing in common, no matter what is happening in the world, wars, crisis, racial injustice, the player has freedom over their own fate.

Now TESO comes along, it has crisis and things going on, just like all the other ES games, yet in order to make the game fit into their need of an RvRvR game, they removed that commonality between all other TES games and took away that freedom and forced you into a conflict.  Saying that because you are this race you must hate and war with these other races is like saying you can't think for yourself.

Most people against how the game is developing are not against changes in politics or racial borders, or PvP. They are against that fact that rather then fitting this PvP and conflict into a game that allows the freedom of choice that is a staple of the IP, they are in stead removing this freedom and trying to cram what is left of TES spirit into the PvP game they wanted to make.

Just because counties or factions war, does not mean everyone in that faction is going to agree.

  Phry

Elite Member

Joined: 7/01/04
Posts: 5213

2/26/13 5:51:56 AM#63
Originally posted by Maelwydd
Originally posted by Crazyhorsek

Mael,

by the way dude... in Skyrim the Empire is not "at war with the nords". There is no war between the Empire and Skyrim. The "war" is the Empire vs a tiny little silly faction called "The Stormcloaks" which, if you did play the game to its fullest, you'd see that they're NO WAY supported by most of the nords.

Even when you start the game you'll hear that guy from Riverwood say "Skyrim has always been part of the empire and the empire was always good for Skyrim" - this doesnt sound like a "war" now does it?

Shock horror!

You mean not ALL Nords got involved?

You mean the fight between the Imperials was with a SUBSET of the Nord race called the stormcloaks?

Don't you see the problem with the design of TESO?

 

 

as ESO totally ignores TES lore, then yes, i do see that as being a design problem, or fault. Its the old forcing a square peg through a round hole problem, you can do it, but only by cutting off all the corners, and ESO sure has a lot of corners missing. One of the biggest problems with faction locking, beside the obvious invisible walls seperating faction areas, is the way the various races are 'shoe-horned' into these factions without any due regard for how the racial lore even meshes, which mostly, it doesnt, or those that do have some kind of compatability, are suddenly complete enemies, probably because having them as allies wouldnt make geographical sense, at least within the context of a DAoC 2 scenario anyway.  Whichever way you try to look at it, its just dumb.

  Crazyhorsek

Novice Member

Joined: 8/18/12
Posts: 249

2/26/13 5:58:07 AM#64
Originally posted by jedensuscg
Originally posted by Crazyhorsek
Originally posted by Maelwydd
Originally posted by Crazyhorsek

Mael,

by the way dude... in Skyrim the Empire is not "at war with the nords". There is no war between the Empire and Skyrim. The "war" is the Empire vs a tiny little silly faction called "The Stormcloaks" which, if you did play the game to its fullest, you'd see that they're NO WAY supported by most of the nords.

Even when you start the game you'll hear that guy from Riverwood say "Skyrim has always been part of the empire and the empire was always good for Skyrim" - this doesnt sound like a "war" now does it?

Shock horror!

You mean not ALL Nords got involved?

You mean the fight between the Imperials was with a SUBSET of the Nord race called the stormcloaks?

Don't you see the problem with the design of TESO?

 

 

Well... different ages, different settings.

My country always fought back the countries that border it - today we're allies in NATO and part of a failure called "European Union"... but like I said, we fought eachother for millenia, the last century alone we had 2 world wars that started in Europe and placed us fighting eachother again - so Europe only has been at peace for 70 years.

Whats your point? You mean that EU peace is against the EU Lore? or Nato goes against the "Lore"?

lol... dude things change with the times...

Ok lets just remove the war and PvP aspect all together and look at it this way.

All the TES games comibined span several centuries if I am not mistaken, yet they all have one thing in common, no matter what is happening in the world, wars, crisis, racial injustice, the player has freedom over their own fate.

Now TESO comes along, it has crisis and things going on, just like all the other ES games, yet in order to make the game fit into their need of an RvRvR game, they removed that commonality between all other TES games and took away that freedom and forced you into a conflict.  Saying that because you are this race you must hate and war with these other races is like saying you can't think for yourself.

Most people against how the game is developing are not against changes in politics or racial borders, or PvP. They are against that fact that rather then fitting this PvP and conflict into a game that allows the freedom of choice that is a staple of the IP, they are in stead removing this freedom and trying to cram what is left of TES spirit into the PvP game they wanted to make.

Just because counties or factions war, does not mean everyone in that faction is going to agree.

Of course not. Thats why if you want to stay behind your walls and only do PvE you can do so and never have to look at the opposite faction's faces if you dont want to.

But you'll still feel the war in your homeland though NPCs and PVE. If your country go to war, even if you dont agree with it or if you choose not to join, still you'll feel it even behind your borders. Thats the objective here.

And you'll always have traitors, pockets of resistance and more stuff that cant keep you away from that war. You see... you may not want it, or you may even disagree with it, but if your country goes into war, you're plunged into it also like it or not. You personally dont "have" to hate anyone, but... you'be part of something larger that the "other side" hates. So... may as well do your thing for your country and... well... hate back lol - DO YOUR PART :)

  Maelwydd

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/26/09
Posts: 1133

2/26/13 6:07:48 AM#65
Originally posted by Crazyhorsek

Of course not. Thats why if you want to stay behind your walls and only do PvE you can do so and never have to look at the opposite faction's faces if you dont want to.

The problem is, we do want to but can't.

And the really, really annoying thing for me....I bet there are NPC's of other factions in our lands that we cannot kill.

But you'll still feel the war in your homeland though NPCs and PVE. If your country go to war, even if you dont agree with it or if you choose not to join, still you'll feel it even behind your borders. Thats the objective here.

That 100% loyalty supporting a war held in a far off land sure worked out good the America during the fighting in Vietnam! 

And you'll always have traitors, pockets of resistance and more stuff that cant keep you away from that war.

Except we can't do any of it in return. Who are the traiters, the resistance or any of the other stuff...not us!

 

You see... you may not want it, or you may even disagree with it, but if your country goes into war, you're plunged into it also like it or not. You personally dont "have" to hate anyone, but... you'be part of something larger that the "other side" hates. So... may as well do your thing for your country and... well... hate back lol - DO YOUR PART :)

You are not 'doing your part' if you don't have a choice!

  loulaki

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/20/11
Posts: 810

2/27/13 3:17:40 PM#66

Role alts, and you can see everything

 

well i wouldnt be an invester to this kind of develpoer who says this ... and its sad cause they have awesome lore and from the video i saw for the "thnx 1million" there are so many good people, its so sad these guys to make these decisions and build so awfull game experience ...

  QSatu

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/14/06
Posts: 1765

2/27/13 4:42:10 PM#67
Imo the biggest problem of this factional divide is the amount of content they have to produce. It means they basically have to design 3 different ways for people to lvl up and 3 times more landmass. I have my doubts even with their deep pockets will be able to do enough so players will feel like the game is big enough and has enough content.
  azarhal

Elite Member

Joined: 7/06/09
Posts: 576

2/28/13 7:06:47 AM#68
Originally posted by jedensuscg

All the TES games comibined span several centuries if I am not mistaken, yet they all have one thing in common, no matter what is happening in the world, wars, crisis, racial injustice, the player has freedom over their own fate.

Now TESO comes along, it has crisis and things going on, just like all the other ES games, yet in order to make the game fit into their need of an RvRvR game, they removed that commonality between all other TES games and took away that freedom and forced you into a conflict.  Saying that because you are this race you must hate and war with these other races is like saying you can't think for yourself.

Most people against how the game is developing are not against changes in politics or racial borders, or PvP. They are against that fact that rather then fitting this PvP and conflict into a game that allows the freedom of choice that is a staple of the IP, they are in stead removing this freedom and trying to cram what is left of TES spirit into the PvP game they wanted to make.

Just because counties or factions war, does not mean everyone in that faction is going to agree.

All the single player games minus Skyrim happen during or right after the death of Uriel Septims VII. It's the same Empire, same political landscape, same everything. And in all those games you end up as an agent of the Empire as well (direct in Daggerfall and Morrowind, by circumstances in Arena and Oblivion).

Skyrim is about 200 years later and I really doubt that the Thalmor let everybody walk around Alinor as they please, but you could only travel around Skyrim which was still mostly civilized (except for the Reachmen). Also, once you joined the Imperial or Stormcloaks you became an enemy of the other side.

If Skyrim was an MMO, you would have had to join the Imperial or Stormcloaks at the start of the game and it would have had Open PvP everywhere.

  sapphen

Novice Member

Joined: 1/06/07
Posts: 918

2/28/13 3:42:13 PM#69
Originally posted by azarhal

If Skyrim was an MMO, you would have had to join the Imperial or Stormcloaks at the start of the game and it would have had Open PvP everywhere.

That is a crazy assumption.  Other MMOs have had a neutral faction system in which you would join one later (if ever).   If Skyrim was a MMO and made by Todd Howard then forced faction locks would never happen.

  Nanfoodle

Elite Member

Joined: 5/23/06
Posts: 3431

2/28/13 5:57:15 PM#70

Think about a zone thats designed for your faction. Every quest, story and dungeon designed around the lore and the war you are in. Each NPC is effected by tbis war. From the worried mother that gives you a quest to find her son that did not come back from a battle. To the orphan you help who lost her family in a dark elf attack. 

 

Make the zones generic and for all factions the impact of faction pride is not as great. I get we lose the abilty to see all areas on one char but we gain a lot more in story and quests that will drive faction pride. I will be happy seeing 1/3 of the factions maps but when I played DAoC it never bugged me I didnt see it all, as this is a MMO and the scope of that means you never really do.

  BlueTiger33

Novice Member

Joined: 2/25/13
Posts: 169

2/28/13 6:34:33 PM#71
Thanks to the OP I see a lot of replay-ability in this game...sounds pretty cool to me.


I will never support freeloaders, no more subsidized gaming.
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  azarhal

Elite Member

Joined: 7/06/09
Posts: 576

3/01/13 6:49:40 AM#72
Originally posted by sapphen
Originally posted by azarhal

If Skyrim was an MMO, you would have had to join the Imperial or Stormcloaks at the start of the game and it would have had Open PvP everywhere.

That is a crazy assumption.  Other MMOs have had a neutral faction system in which you would join one later (if ever).   If Skyrim was a MMO and made by Todd Howard then forced faction locks would never happen.

Now talk about assumptions. It's clear that Todd Howard doesn't do MMOs...

 

  sapphen

Novice Member

Joined: 1/06/07
Posts: 918

3/01/13 7:39:22 AM#73
Originally posted by azarhal
Originally posted by sapphen
Originally posted by azarhal

If Skyrim was an MMO, you would have had to join the Imperial or Stormcloaks at the start of the game and it would have had Open PvP everywhere.

That is a crazy assumption.  Other MMOs have had a neutral faction system in which you would join one later (if ever).   If Skyrim was a MMO and made by Todd Howard then forced faction locks would never happen.

Now talk about assumptions. It's clear that Todd Howard doesn't do MMOs...

It's also clear that Skyrim is not a MMO.

  Maelwydd

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/26/09
Posts: 1133

3/01/13 8:41:56 AM#74
Originally posted by azarhal

If Skyrim was an MMO, you would have had to join the Imperial or Stormcloaks at the start of the game and it would have had Open PvP everywhere.

Please explain why you think that is a neccessity.

What mechanic is forcing this faction choice option to be unavailable in an MMO?

Because I cannot think of any reason why, if you were to try and faithfully move the Skyrim over to an MMO environment, you woul dneed to suddenly remove the choice from the player.

So what mechanic, system limitation or other fly in the ointment do you think is unsurmountable when considering the design of an MMO?

  Findariel

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/20/05
Posts: 216

3/01/13 4:00:06 PM#75

I don't see any problems with the chosen system.

Like most people, I will have a main character with my guild and roll alts to discover the other lands and perhaps learn the faction specific classes and skills. Which doesn't mean I won't feel most attached to my main and her specific faction and guild.

  sapphen

Novice Member

Joined: 1/06/07
Posts: 918

3/01/13 4:47:07 PM#76
Originally posted by Findariel

I don't see any problems with the chosen system.

Like most people, I will have a main character with my guild and roll alts to discover the other lands and perhaps learn the faction specific classes and skills. Which doesn't mean I won't feel most attached to my main and her specific faction and guild.

I guess in a lot of ways I'm too attached to the Elder Scrolls franchise.  I've dreamed about a TES MMO since Oblivion and I probably had too many expectations on how it would turn out.  Out of fairness, many of my expectations aligned with the previous games but if I was not a fan of TES (and annoyed by the generality of modern MMOs) then I probably wouldn't have a problem with the chosen systems.  From a design point they are really not that bad ~ I just don't think they apply to TES.

  Vorgarag109

Novice Member

Joined: 3/14/12
Posts: 13

3/01/13 6:15:37 PM#77
Originally posted by Maelwydd
Originally posted by azarhal

If Skyrim was an MMO, you would have had to join the Imperial or Stormcloaks at the start of the game and it would have had Open PvP everywhere.

Please explain why you think that is a neccessity.

What mechanic is forcing this faction choice option to be unavailable in an MMO?

Because I cannot think of any reason why, if you were to try and faithfully move the Skyrim over to an MMO environment, you woul dneed to suddenly remove the choice from the player.

So what mechanic, system limitation or other fly in the ointment do you think is unsurmountable when considering the design of an MMO?

I Agree Their is No Reason why such limitation's would need to be implemented just because TES became a MMO. Infact I think the Fact a Player can or could have been Neutral should have been Emphasized if the game was actually staying true to giving Player's Freedom and Choice of how they want to play their Role in the world.

Would of Loved to have explored the entire world even if i couldn't have interacted with all of the NPC's due to the lack of being a member of their Respective Faction or Alignment. in some cases it would have been fun to see how some of the NPC's would have reacted to a Neutral Player giving more background onto the said Faction.

 

 

  sapphen

Novice Member

Joined: 1/06/07
Posts: 918

3/01/13 6:24:52 PM#78
Originally posted by Vorgarag109

Would of Loved to have explored the entire world even if i couldn't have interacted with all of the NPC's due to the lack of being a member of their Respective Faction or Alignment. in some cases it would have been fun to see how some of the NPC's would have reacted to a Neutral Player giving more background onto the said Faction.

That's kind of what I was thinking.  Instead of locking factions, NPCs would react to you differently depending on your race and their faction.  For instance; if you create a Brenton you would begin in a Daggerfall controlled area.  All the NPCs would be trying to recruit you to their army.  When you leave the area and go to another faction they may treat you with hostility.  You would have to do a series of quests to earn their trust in order to join their faction.

  Heretique

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/02/07
Posts: 965

Most of my posts get deleted.

3/01/13 7:37:48 PM#79
One thing that bothers me the most about this game is being able to join multiple guilds, still think it's a retarded feature.

Originally posted by salsa41
are you have problem ?

  Rukushin

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/07/04
Posts: 46

3/01/13 7:39:09 PM#80
Originally posted by sapphen
Originally posted by Vorgarag109

Would of Loved to have explored the entire world even if i couldn't have interacted with all of the NPC's due to the lack of being a member of their Respective Faction or Alignment. in some cases it would have been fun to see how some of the NPC's would have reacted to a Neutral Player giving more background onto the said Faction.

That's kind of what I was thinking.  Instead of locking factions, NPCs would react to you differently depending on your race and their faction.  For instance; if you create a Brenton you would begin in a Daggerfall controlled area.  All the NPCs would be trying to recruit you to their army.  When you leave the area and go to another faction they may treat you with hostility.  You would have to do a series of quests to earn their trust in order to join their faction.

Exactly what I would have wanted as well. Too bad we wont get it.

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