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Elder Scrolls Online

Elder Scrolls Online 

General Discussion  » I hope TESO can avoid the casualisation/streamlining trap that other recent MMOs have fallen into.

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51 posts found
  DavisFlight

Elite Member

Joined: 9/25/12
Posts: 2524

2/26/13 7:55:01 AM#41

It already added in instanced dungeons, phasing,  "megaserver" phasing, and will have quest based leveling.

It's already casual.

  kostantis

Novice Member

Joined: 12/31/05
Posts: 29

2/26/13 8:23:17 AM#42
Originally posted by crasset15
Originally posted by Wickedjelly

Yes

Clearly mmos of late have not lived up to expectations because of things such as auction houses and mini maps.

Where the fuck do some of you come up with these things?

Auction house alone is not a game breaker. It is a piece in a very large puzzle which comes together to create a very on rails and linear game experience.

Lets use the example of a recently released sequel to a successful MMO. The game is essentially divided into zones, and in each zone, you can do the following things:

- Heart quests

- Skill points

- Find waypoints

- Points of interest

- Group Events

- Vistas

- Collect crafting materials

- Jumping puzzles

Every next zone follows the exact same layout as the previous one. Do you see how a game can become shallow and repetitive if you remove all the 'inconveniences' or 'chores'? Do they honestly expect me to do the same exact thing over and over again in 25 different zones? It became boring when I reached the third zone.

The games don't make you do anything aside from your mob killing loop. Even all armor and weapons can be conveniently acquired from lizards, mammoths, deers, bears. Oh the horror of actually having to stop what you are doing, and figuring out how and where to acquire better gear, instead of being handed gear left and right. Why would a lizard carry around a steel mace of shock, or a bear live in some forest with a leather helmet of archery?

You don't have to figure ANYTHING out on your own, the game is built up in a way that all the time you have a clear goal, and  you know exactly step by step how to acheive it. If you go near a heart, it gives you a detailed description of what the NPC requires, without ever having to go even within 50 meters of that person. The overall shallow feel is caused by the sum of the little streamlinings, not the individual parts on their own.

Do you see how absurd this has become? You can acquire a quest without even speaking to the NPC.

*humble bow*

  alterfenix

Novice Member

Joined: 3/05/10
Posts: 335

2/26/13 4:53:32 PM#43
Originally posted by crasset15

Who is the audience for casual dumbed down MMOs? Most of the AAA MMO developers seem to think that this is the biggest part of the consumers. And what happens when a game like that comes out? It is hyped up, lots of people buy it at launch, and then it is struggling within 6 months. One thing is playing a game casually, something completely different is building a game from the ground up for people that you consider casuals. I don't think even casual players like some of the design choices that are made.

 

What I consider casual/streamlined design:

- auction house

AH is not a bad idea, definitely better than sitting half day around one area and spamming trade channel.

- drop-in-drop-out pvp with no risk, no long term implications/goals. Respawning during a match.

If you refer to instanced PvP the way it is done in WoW right now then I agree, this sucks. Although in case of TESO any kind of instanced PvP would easily go wrong way really so hopefully they won't put it in.

- no chance to lose progress in a pve environment (aka lose gear). Why do you win items when you complete something, but don't lose anything if you fail? The balance is off here.

This has little to do with not bein casual friendly. Rather reminds me of some korean titles instead. Also remmeber that even WoW (not to mention older western THEMEPARK alike titles) wasn't really designed with casuals in mind.

- waypoints

Agreed here. Waypoints and other instant travel mechanisms (like portals) suck. The only exception may be recall but even that should have some decent cooldown (like 1h atleast)

- dividing the gameworld into zones, and other related gizmos, like completion percentage. Telling a player how much % of the game they have completed, is like telling a person in real life the year and date that they are going to die on.

Regarding zones. Every MMO out there has kind of zones (even if they are called differently). Regarding achievements. This is just a poor addition to give ppl more stuff to do in order to extend too short content (or too dull content). Things such as Tome of Knowledge (WAR) can be fun tho as such mechanics can be used i.e. to tell game world's story. It would be fun feature as long as it does not have stuff such as kill 200 daedras in order to get title or jump around Cyrodiil 10 times without getting bored with it. This is just not even fun.

- all content is available for everyone. 

Technically in already mentioned two EvE and Darkfall situation is similar.

- too many tutorials. Most people have a brain, and using it can be fun sometimes.

To be fair tutorials are fine as long as they are not too intrusive (like can be disabled or they don't interrupt you other stuff). Part "room for discovery" should be left totally for more complex content. See i.e. idea behind crafting in games such as EvE or Mortal (not talking about realisation of this idea in this case).

- minimap/zone map, and related gizmos such as quest markers. Do devs think people are crippled and can't progress if you don't give them a map?

Here again from what I recall it was also the case of games before this trend

- nothing occurs in the game world that is out of the player's control. All the way through, the games make you feel like a superhero. Who has played Stalker, I mean something along the line of emissions.

For that reason I hope that they get RvR right. It's hard to expect unexpected from computer controlled mob but it's totally different story in case of enemy players.

The 3 big hopes for me this year are TESO, Repopulation, and DayZ. To be brutally honest, I absolutely expect TESO to take the casual approach. And this time around, I'll wait for people to post videos on youtube, before blindly buying into the hype (made that mistake with TSW and GW2). Now if you'll excuse me, I'm off to play oldschool runescape.

Well I have similar feelings. I really hope that theyr ecreate oldschool DAoC but then I feel that it won't be the case. Hopefully I am wrong.

  SchroesCat

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/23/10
Posts: 44

2/28/13 7:24:43 AM#44

 

Just for the record: Though' I haven't bothered to read through this entire thread, I have read about half of it. Enough to say:

OP: I feel with you. Contemporary MMOs are so bland, shallow and boring it is a shame. Dumbing down of the sheep. Everyone aiming at the golden-middle middle grounds. And every game being the same golden-middle ground. Sometimes in green. Sometimes in red. And some daring souls might even try blue. But the mind-numbing middle grounds are always aimed for.

*snore*

I lost interest in the genre. I think it will take a few years until someone comes up with something really interesting again. Not that the time wouldn't be ripe now. But - paradoxically - MMORPG game developpers seem to be one of the most conservative industries around these days.

  Squeak69

Novice Member

Joined: 1/21/13
Posts: 960

cheese cheese wheres da bloody cheese

2/28/13 7:43:05 AM#45

to the OP

as hard as it is to beleave most people play games to have fun and work off the stress of life, not add to it or show off thier e-pen.

i know there are people out their like that and some people think they are the majority but they really arnt just the most outspoken.

F2P may be the way of the future, but ya know they dont make them like they used to
Proper Grammer & spelling are extra, corrections will be LOL at.

  SchroesCat

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/23/10
Posts: 44

2/28/13 9:07:06 AM#46

Why is the perception so often, that people put

 challenge / harsh environment / cruel game settings no fun / grind / frustration ?

I feel it is just different tastes. A game with a harsh-death penalty, for example, is per so no more "grindy" or anything, methinks, than any vanilla settings. Why is it also, that so many feel that harsh game settings are only attractive to folk that put 40 hours + game time in per week. I think it is by no means.

It is no more and no less than just different tastes and preferences. One gets frustrated by losing it all. Another gets the kick out of the threat of losing it all around the next corner... and persevering. To one, getting stripped of all stuff is frustrating. To another, it is just a "shit-happens", the cause for a good tale and nice RP. Perma-death to one is losing the beloved character forever. For another player perma-death is just that: The end of a virtual character. The start of a new one. And maybe cause for great tales and a bit of a dramatic mood and story?

I hate grinding, personally. But I love harsh death-settings and the rush of (real) adrenaline, even in virtual worlds. Some people do challenging, risky, tricky, difficult stuff for recreation. Play chess. Climb mountains. Solve mathematical and logic puzzles. What is so bizarre about the notion of a challenging, risky, tricky MMORPG I wonder? 

Not all of us that have this preference are nerds or cats with too much time on our paws. It is just a matter of personal tastes. And I really doubt we are so few. There are just no MMORPGs for our tastes. Especially not if you combine the demand for "risky" mechanics with a game favouring, fostering and catered for "roleplay".

*Editted for a bazillion of typos.

  grimal

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 9/11/05
Posts: 2083

2/28/13 9:22:28 AM#47

WoW and GW2 have cemented the casual in the MMORPG.  Aside from indie developers, I really don't see the genre changing because every game type is moving towards consolification/mobilzation.

As you pointed out, nowadays you don't even have to click an NPC to get a quest.  People embrace this. 

"I'm sorry, if you were right, I'd agree with you." - Robin Williams

  crasset15

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/12/12
Posts: 157

 
OP  2/28/13 6:46:37 PM#48
Originally posted by SchroesCat

Why is the perception so often, that people put

 challenge / harsh environment / cruel game settings no fun / grind / frustration ?

I feel it is just different tastes. A game with a harsh-death penalty, for example, is per so no more "grindy" or anything, methinks, than any vanilla settings. Why is it also, that so many feel that harsh game settings are only attractive to folk that put 40 hours + game time in per week. I think it is by no means.

It is no more and no less than just different tastes and preferences. One gets frustrated by losing it all. Another gets the kick out of the threat of losing it all around the next corner... and persevering. To one, getting stripped of all stuff is frustrating. To another, it is just a "shit-happens", the cause for a good tale and nice RP. Perma-death to one is losing the beloved character forever. For another player perma-death is just that: The end of a virtual character. The start of a new one. And maybe cause for great tales and a bit of a dramatic mood and story?

I hate grinding, personally. But I love harsh death-settings and the rush of (real) adrenaline, even in virtual worlds. Some people do challenging, risky, tricky, difficult stuff for recreation. Play chess. Climb mountains. Solve mathematical and logic puzzles. What is so bizarre about the notion of a challenging, risky, tricky MMORPG I wonder? 

Not all of us that have this preference are nerds or cats with too much time on our paws. It is just a matter of personal tastes. And I really doubt we are so few. There are just no MMORPGs for our tastes. Especially not if you combine the demand for "risky" mechanics with a game favouring, fostering and catered for "roleplay".

*Editted for a bazillion of typos.

Well said. The adrenaline rush is one of the main things that I feel is missing in recent titles. And this is also one of the main reasons that I consider runescape (2007 and earlier) to be one of the best MMOs ever. They did eventually dumb it down with gravestones and whatnot. I would imagine EVE can offer something similar, but I'm not really into the whole space theme.

Just earlier today in the oldschool servers of RS, some mage had died to a few city guards, and I, as a complete noob, picked up his 60k gold and a bunch of runes. It was unexpected, and that's what made it memorable and fun. This extra layer of possible interaction between players (even though he was dead) is what gives the game depth. Basically the game lets this player 'create content' for me, instead of some dev needing to make something like that. This wasn't some intricately developed game system, it was just another person dying, and it was far more memorable than some zone boss in GW2 will ever be. Now, which is more efficient from a development standpoint, a zone boss, or a simple gear drop system that is developed once, and used permanently throughout the lifespan of the game, and is available in every situation, and everywhere.

Both of them are a bunch of code, but the gear loss system is content that the players use permanently, whereas a zone boss is only used for 5 minutes during the entire playthrough of the character (waste of development time and doesn't add to the overall 'selling points' of the game).

Games like dayz don't have any quests or any set goals, they rely completely on players creating content for eachother, and I believe this is a huge missed opportunity in the modern MMOs. They try too hard to have everything made on the development level, and end up having insane budgets.

Nothing has even come close to the feeling of going into the wilderness in RS with insane amount of risk, knowing full well that if I die, I'll lose all of it. The adrenaline from doing something like that can keep you shaky, sleepless and anxious for hours and I love it.

I just haven't felt that way while playing any other MMO. Tried runes of magic, tried GW2, tried TSW, tried lineage 2, and a lot of the smaller MMOs like MU online, dragon raja and helbreath, sword of the new world. DayZ is the only recently released game that has got something like that to offer, but that isn't really a MMO in the traditional sense.

  Vorgarag109

Novice Member

Joined: 3/14/12
Posts: 13

2/28/13 11:45:36 PM#49

TESO has been in this Trap/ stuck on the one way street that WoW Created the minute they decided to start taking Idea's From DAOC and other similar games that restrict Player Freedom/Choices.

I am sorry Hardcore DAOC fans but Daoc was a Good game but by no means was it SUCH a GREAT GAME that so many idea's should be taken from it and rehashed. 

 Locked Factions is gonna be TESO's Nail to the Coffin. Why you maybe wondering? here are some Reasons.

1.Don't get me wrong It Works only in Some Games.But I will use WoW as a Example since the game has 2 factions with seperate races and its a successful game. tho You are not very Restricted in which zones/ areas you can enter based on your Factions however u can only quest in some of them based on your faction. Not to Mention WoW's Main Selling Point / Key feature that keeps players playing it IS NOT (Locked Faction Open World PvP let alone PvP for that matter. is a Minority in that game.)

 

2. Population Imbalances. this is a Major/Key Problem that Feeds off itself. if a Factions Worlds starts to feel empty or is very onesided in World Objectives it just creates more problems. TESO Dev's are not even addressing this problem in fact they are just helping dig the hole by Locking Races to not 2 Factions but 3 Factions. So it is more likely that one faction is gonna be extremely at a Disadvantage/underpopulated aka from the looks of it Aldmeri Dominion is apparently stuck with 2 of the least popular Races in TES games.(Mega Server Does not Fix this Problem it would be a bandaid to put on a Major Open Wound since in No Way is Player's Faction Choices/favorite races  gonna be 33% per each faction.)

 

3. RvRvR(Aka Locked Factions Fighting for Control of Major Objectives). Why? is this idea constantly being reused! has it worked for a Game yet? Their is a Difference between Massive Siege Battles and RvRvR. If you played Shadowbane for a decent amount of time you probably know what i mean.  Locked Factions Fighting for Objectives to control a Zone one side is gonna eventually Win because People Jump Ship from the losing factions side to the Winning Factions Side if its something as simple as Rerolling your character's race people avoid Challenges/problems if they can.

I Only see TESO Population / Success lasting for about 3-5months and this is on the Assumption that it has a Smooth Release. 

 

In My Honest Opinion tho. When I Think Elder Scrolls meets MMO. I think of a game with Ultima Online's Choices and player Freedom Combined with TES fun Combat/ Immersive  and Interactive World. ( By No means does Death's / PvP have to be as harsh as Ultima Onlines. While i Enjoyed UO's Death Penalty it can be to harsh for Newcomers. who basically haven't found their place in the World so compromises would have to have been made on such aspects.)

(Honestly Probability of me buying this game is about 50-50 at this point. Its riding basically on the back of its PvE Content/how fun its combat is which will most likely be seen in Beta. Since the Beta's Give a General idea of a Games Design/ Direction the Dev's are taking.)

 

(Edited to fix Typos)

 

  alterfenix

Novice Member

Joined: 3/05/10
Posts: 335

3/01/13 12:55:47 PM#50
Originally posted by Vorgarag109

TESO has been in this Trap/ stuck on the one way street that WoW Created the minute they decided to start taking Idea's From DAOC and other similar games that restrict Player Freedom/Choices.

I am sorry Hardcore DAOC fans but Daoc was a Good game but by no means was it SUCH a GREAT GAME that so many idea's should be taken from it and rehashed. 

 Locked Factions is gonna be TESO's Nail to the Coffin. Why you maybe wondering? here are some Reasons.

1.Don't get me wrong It Works only in Some Games.But I will use WoW as a Example since the game has 2 factions with seperate races and its a successful game. tho You are not very Restricted in which zones/ areas you can enter based on your Factions however u can only quest in some of them based on your faction. Not to Mention WoW's Main Selling Point / Key feature that keeps players playing it IS NOT (Locked Faction Open World PvP let alone PvP for that matter. is a Minority in that game.)

 

2. Population Imbalances. this is a Major/Key Problem that Feeds off itself. if a Factions Worlds starts to feel empty or is very onesided in World Objectives it just creates more problems. TESO Dev's are not even addressing this problem in fact they are just helping dig the hole by Locking Races to not 2 Factions but 3 Factions. So it is more likely that one faction is gonna be extremely at a Disadvantage/underpopulated aka from the looks of it Aldmeri Dominion is apparently stuck with 2 of the least popular Races in TES games.(Mega Server Does not Fix this Problem it would be a bandaid to put on a Major Open Wound since in No Way is Player's Faction Choices/favorite races  gonna be 33% per each faction.)

 

3. RvRvR(Aka Locked Factions Fighting for Control of Major Objectives). Why? is this idea constantly being reused! has it worked for a Game yet? Their is a Difference between Massive Siege Battles and RvRvR. If you played Shadowbane for a decent amount of time you probably know what i mean.  Locked Factions Fighting for Objectives to control a Zone one side is gonna eventually Win because People Jump Ship from the losing factions side to the Winning Factions Side if its something as simple as Rerolling your character's race people avoid Challenges/problems if they can.

I Only see TESO Population / Success lasting for about 3-5months and this is on the Assumption that it has a Smooth Release. 

 

In My Honest Opinion tho. When I Think Elder Scrolls meets MMO. I think of a game with Ultima Online's Choices and player Freedom Combined with TES fun Combat/ Immersive  and Interactive World. ( By No means does Death's / PvP have to be as harsh as Ultima Onlines. While i Enjoyed UO's Death Penalty it can be to harsh for Newcomers. who basically haven't found their place in the World so compromises would have to have been made on such aspects.)

(Honestly Probability of me buying this game is about 50-50 at this point. Its riding basically on the back of its PvE Content/how fun its combat is which will most likely be seen in Beta. Since the Beta's Give a General idea of a Games Design/ Direction the Dev's are taking.)

 

(Edited to fix Typos)

 

To be fair you may be right but then you may be wrong.

1. No idea what you mean here really. In WoW, Rift and a few others it is like that but I never really felt there cut away from content whatsoever. The only exception to this was Aion for sure. Won't speak of WAR as I haven't done much PvE there (if any).

2. and 3. That's what underdog systems are for. Don't look at WAR as it had it far from perfect but there are a few titles where it was used to boost interest in different content. That's what zone population cap is for. Set it high (but then set it at all) and problem solved. Not talking here about joke values like in GW2 but something more serious. There are tools, they just need to use them if required.

  ignore_me

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/04/11
Posts: 2034

3/01/13 1:01:12 PM#51

"related gizmos, like completion percentage. Telling a player how much % of the game they have completed, is like telling a person in real life the year and date that they are going to die on."

I have to say that I do agree with this. Mystery is a powerful tool that has been thrown in the trash bin.

Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011

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