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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » "US free-to-play audience outnumbers pay-to-play 6 to 1"

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350 posts found
  Calerxes

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/06/09
Posts: 1660

2/23/13 5:24:31 PM#41
Originally posted by nariusseldon

http://www.superdataresearch.com/us-free-to-play-does-it-pay-to-switch/

"If you were to look at the growth of the audience alone, the market for F2P games is substantially larger than that for pay-to-play. Six times larger, in fact."

"Subscription-based MMOs have been on a decline in the US, dropping from 8.5MM in December 2009 to 6.7MM in October 2012."

"So, yes, it would appear that F2P may be a viable revenue model, partly because of the large number of gamers it attracts. But traffic alone is not a definitive measure of success. Overall spending may follow a very different trend depending on a game’s life cycle, player base and genre.

The good news is that in 2012, F2P MMOs made more than their P2P counterparts, capturing the majority of the MMO US market’s revenue. The tricky part lies in how to capture and replicate this success."

 

 

 

Your point?

This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up™ the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.

  User Deleted
2/23/13 5:32:51 PM#42
Originally posted by Robokapp
Originally posted by Dihoru

 

get with it gents because every argument you could reasonably make against a F2P game with a balanced cash shop you can make against a P2P one as well only that the F2P game has more people playing it.

I'm still waiting for such a F2P...

Star Trek Online would be the first example I can give from experience of a balanced cash shop. Note when I say balanced I mean you can earn everything in-game by playing (grinding if you prefer the term though if you like the game that's very debateable) and earning the cash shop currency through trading with players. Also note that while Cryptic/Perfect World do sell ships via their shop these ships aren't the best you can get (fleet ships are markedly better and standard, solo earned, ships can hold their own very well vs cash shop ships in pvp scenarios).

  waynejr2

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/12/11
Posts: 3740

RIP City of Heroes!

2/23/13 5:36:40 PM#43
Originally posted by Xthos
Originally posted by Brenics
Ok people play F2P games,. My son loves League of legends, he admits you have to pay at least 30 dollars to get to 30 where the game really starts getting good. Now even after that you have to pay more to really keep up with the good players if you want to keep up. Same goes for all the other F2P games, you have to spend the money, where if its for expansions, gear, buffs, ect. I would rather pay the sub and only have to pay for expansions. To me it seems a lot less expensive. Of course that is just me. :)

Actually League of Legends, you don't have to spend any money, they have a good system, money is just needed for skins/looks on your characters, so it is cosmetic.  You can buy stuff, like heros, but you can get all that stuff by playing.  I don't consider it a mmo though. 

 

I just like to know what I am going to be paying, and that everyone is on a 'even' playingfield as far as in game goes.  I think someone could stop a lot of the gold selling, and cheating a lot better if it was a bought game.  If you have a trial, then you limit activities, that could result in farming/spamming the paying community.  That way someone can try the game, but not disrupt the game.

 The community of LoL is consider the top end as well!

  twrule

Novice Member

Joined: 7/15/09
Posts: 1260

2/23/13 5:39:30 PM#44
Originally posted by FARGIN_WAR

Yep and is this because a large majority of MMO gamers are cheap bastards? Or is it actually because so many greedy and cluless companies jumped on the gravy train, released a spate of appaling MMORPGs, oversaturated the market, and pretty much destroyed the genre's value, credibility, and sank MMO customers confidence in one fell swoop?

Personally I see this trend  as not people swticing to wanting something for nothing. But instead being fed up with getting nothing for their money.

Agreed.

There is getting to be no real excuse to pay for expensive sub games these days with the introduction of decent AAA B2P and F2P options (most of which offer no real advantage to those who put money into the game), like GW2, Planetside 2, now TERA, AoC, etc. I have been playing those (not ever having, nor will I ever, spend a cent on any mmo again, beyond perhaps buying the box) - took a break to take advantage of a "return to WoW" 10 day free trial, and laughed at the prospect of paying for that game again once I did; the games I mentioned previously trump it in nearly every way. FFXIV 2.0 is going to tank again if they think they are getting a full sub fee for what they are offering too. This is not mentioning the selection of small-name f2p games on the market, which are improving in quality noticably.

As for those of you who think paying money for a game makes a better community - keep telling yourself that to rationalize shelling out money for nothing each month. That is not at all the case, and anyone who has played WoW, or TERA, Aion, etc, when they were P2P mmos (or still are) knows that is not necessarily the case (those communities were miserable). Likewise, even if you have a greater number of casual 'passer-through' players, most games will also have a core tight-knit community that plays it; you just need to find, or (heaven forbid) create, such a community. The later type of community is likely to be such because they genuinely like the game and the people they play with, not because they are invested via psychological pressure of knowing they need to try and get their money's worth.

Sad that people would rather trot out platitudes like "you get what you pay for" than swallow the pill that they've been wasting their money.

  DamonVile

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 4909

2/23/13 5:43:13 PM#45
Originally posted by Robokapp
Originally posted by Dihoru

 

get with it gents because every argument you could reasonably make against a F2P game with a balanced cash shop you can make against a P2P one as well only that the F2P game has more people playing it.

I'm still waiting for such a F2P...

Let me know when you find a p2p one. :P

  Comaf

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/13/10
Posts: 1137

I want an mmorpg where pvp matters, my enemies are not my race or class, and community matters.

2/23/13 5:47:04 PM#46
Originally posted by Fearum
Who cares. I would rather play with a smaller tight knit population than a huge on the go population of passer through players. I will not play F2P games.

Absolutely!

  Robokapp

Elite Member

Joined: 11/15/09
Posts: 4754

The only luck I had today was to have you as my opponent.

2/23/13 5:49:51 PM#47
Originally posted by DamonVile
Originally posted by Robokapp
Originally posted by Dihoru

 

get with it gents because every argument you could reasonably make against a F2P game with a balanced cash shop you can make against a P2P one as well only that the F2P game has more people playing it.

I'm still waiting for such a F2P...

Let me know when you find a p2p one. :P

i'm writing this in my eve browser.

  shingoukieh

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/10/09
Posts: 117

2/23/13 5:50:58 PM#48
cant name 1 f2p that started out as f2p that matches quality of b2p or p2p
  User Deleted
2/23/13 5:52:52 PM#49
Originally posted by Robokapp
Originally posted by DamonVile
Originally posted by Robokapp
Originally posted by Dihoru

 

get with it gents because every argument you could reasonably make against a F2P game with a balanced cash shop you can make against a P2P one as well only that the F2P game has more people playing it.

I'm still waiting for such a F2P...

Let me know when you find a p2p one. :P

i'm writing this in my eve browser.

Call me back when you donno what else to train and the only reason you log on is to chat with friends :P ( 0.0 gets boring after a few years, trust me and as for the rest... you gotta cycle it otherwise you burn out ^^ ).

  BeansnBread

Elite Member

Joined: 9/19/06
Posts: 5553

2/23/13 5:53:22 PM#50
Originally posted by shingoukieh
cant name 1 f2p that started out as f2p that matches quality of b2p or p2p

I think Planetside 2 does. 

 

But yeah, all the good F2P started out as P2P. Way too many times the P2P option is just a monthly fee to beta test until the game goes F2P.

SWTOR is the greatest mmo ever!

  User Deleted
2/23/13 5:53:34 PM#51

pretty much confirms a long held suspicion that many on these forums alone (like me) already figured out but that many on these forums and other forums were resistant to accept even now.

It's mostly due to the market and the economy however one cannot rule out the tendency for people to spend as much time in regular real life activities as much as they do in games. No longer are most people accepting the requirement by game manufacturers to spend every waking hour working towards a goal in their virtual world all for the purpose of standing in the middle of their main race's city and walking around strutting because they did something extreme like spend an entire 2-3 month period running the same dungeon/raid over and over again to learn the dance that the game developers have scripted just so they can finally and at long last get that single piece of gear to drop to complete their set. People have lives now and survival is more important then spending enormous insane amounts of time working on such things. Devs are finally starting to realize for the most part (we still have a few stragglers AHEM Anet for one) that mmo's should not be second careers when it comes to these virtual experiences.

  Sovrath

Elite Member

Joined: 1/06/05
Posts: 17373

2/23/13 5:57:30 PM#52
Originally posted by twrule
 

As for those of you who think paying money for a game makes a better community - keep telling yourself that to rationalize shelling out money for nothing each month. That is not at all the case, and anyone who has played WoW, or TERA, Aion, etc, when they were P2P mmos (or still are) knows that is not necessarily the case (those communities were miserable). Likewise, even if you have a greater number of casual 'passer-through' players, most games will also have a core tight-knit community that plays it; you just need to find, or (heaven forbid) create, such a community. The later type of community is likely to be such because they genuinely like the game and the people they play with, not because they are invested via psychological pressure of knowing they need to try and get their money's worth.

Sad that people who rather trot out platitudes like "you get what you pay for" just because they can't swallow the pill that they've been wasting their money.

I think it's sad that you think the small percentage of people who actually pay and pay lots should support your gaming habit.

So you will buy the box huh (if I box is offered) ? That pays for very little over the life and development of a game.

essentially small groups of people, some who should know better, shovel out tons of money to keep these games afloat while large groups of people come and go.

And that's if those people keep these games afloat. Keep in mind Aion hasn't made the money they thought it would with their f2p model.

As far as getting what you pay for, that always holds true. You are mistaken if you think that others believe a subscrtiption equals a great community.

It never has.

a subscription means a devoted or at least more serious community. People always pay for things they value and will pay for things they value greatly.

A Cello professor at BU once told me that he used to give lessons but that he had a hard time keeping students as many of his students weren't serious. He had a constantly revolving door of students amid some die hard serious students. His former teacher told him to raise fee. He did this, lost all the non-serious students, kept his serious students, attracted more serious students and learned that he could make more money with a small group of students to teach, freeing up his time for other endeavors.

That can be applied to mmo's as well. the people who pay are more devoted to a game, more serious about it. The problem with p2p games is that developers stopped giving players good reasons to keep paying those subs. Players weren't seeing what they were getting for their money. Game companies started skimping more in order to keep more money and having less events, less online gm's, less updates meant that players would get tired of just logging in for the sake of it.

That is the real lesson of p2p. If a player is going to pay something they are going to want to see something of value worth his money.

It does keep down the transient population

  Banquetto

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/06/09
Posts: 1033

2/23/13 5:58:37 PM#53


Originally posted by Mardukk
Everyone seems to love P2P in this thread.  Do you still love the box price with the sub?  Or just a sub is enough P2P for you?  Just curious.  I don't feel that I'll ever do box price and sub together ever again, short of my dream game.

Monthly sub with no box price would be my ideal model. That was the model of the first MMO I ever played (two week free trial, then you had to sub to continue), and I still think it's the best. No barrier to entry to stop people from checking out your game; but an ongoing sub to finance it.

Sadly it's not particularly popular. Although you virtually have it when the box includes a month of sub and barely costs any more than a month of sub (e.g. EVE cost I think $20 when I bought it, so basically the box cost $5).

  Torvaldr

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/09
Posts: 5912

2/23/13 5:59:17 PM#54

The only distinction I make now is sub-free or sub-locked.  I spend money on any game I like so b2p, f2p, freemium is pretty much the same to me.  I buy premium account status when I'm focusing on a game or if it makes sense to unlock things that way.

I don't plan on renting my game access again though.  That doesn't work for me anymore.

Curse you AquaScum!

  Robokapp

Elite Member

Joined: 11/15/09
Posts: 4754

The only luck I had today was to have you as my opponent.

2/23/13 5:59:35 PM#55
Originally posted by Dihoru
Originally posted by Robokapp
Originally posted by DamonVile
Originally posted by Robokapp
Originally posted by Dihoru

 

get with it gents because every argument you could reasonably make against a F2P game with a balanced cash shop you can make against a P2P one as well only that the F2P game has more people playing it.

I'm still waiting for such a F2P...

Let me know when you find a p2p one. :P

i'm writing this in my eve browser.

Call me back when you donno what else to train and the only reason you log on is to chat with friends :P ( 0.0 gets boring after a few years, trust me and as for the rest... you gotta cycle it otherwise you burn out ^^ ).

you know...let's assume I agree with you.

 

A FEW YEARS is not that bad. I can't think of many new MMOs that can say they have a retention of A FEW YEARS.

 

Again, not agreeing with you, just pointing out even THAT is still not too damn bad. 

  DamonVile

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 4909

2/23/13 6:01:29 PM#56
Originally posted by Robokapp
Originally posted by DamonVile
Originally posted by Robokapp
Originally posted by Dihoru

 

get with it gents because every argument you could reasonably make against a F2P game with a balanced cash shop you can make against a P2P one as well only that the F2P game has more people playing it.

I'm still waiting for such a F2P...

Let me know when you find a p2p one. :P

i'm writing this in my eve browser.

I was bored a month after beta. If there was a p2p game that I felt was worth paying for I would, right now the game I'm interested in is f2p. I still pay the $15 a month for the extras it just happens to be a f2p game.

( not at you but the thread )

I think people who sit on their high horse and say f2p is beneath them, do it because they need little things like that or they simply haven't given the good ones a chance. Either way it doesn't effect me, it's just another post on a forum

  craftseeker

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/11/09
Posts: 636

2/23/13 6:02:39 PM#57
Originally posted by itgrowls

pretty much confirms a long held suspicion that many on these forums alone (like me) already figured out but that many on these forums and other forums were resistant to accept even now.

It's mostly due to the market and the economy however one cannot rule out the tendency for people to spend as much time in regular real life activities as much as they do in games. No longer are most people accepting the requirement by game manufacturers to spend every waking hour working towards a goal in their virtual world all for the purpose of standing in the middle of their main race's city and walking around strutting because they did something extreme like spend an entire 2-3 month period running the same dungeon/raid over and over again to learn the dance that the game developers have scripted just so they can finally and at long last get that single piece of gear to drop to complete their set. People have lives now and survival is more important then spending enormous insane amounts of time working on such things. Devs are finally starting to realize for the most part (we still have a few stragglers AHEM Anet for one) that mmo's should not be second careers when it comes to these virtual experiences.

That argument is certainly valid at your time in life.  But move yourself forward 10 to 20 years, perhaps a little more. More free time, no job, kids gone, grandchildren only occasionally an issue.  You just might like the idea of a game that can be played for a few hours every day.  Alternately move yourself back,  lots of college kids playing computer games for a few hours a day. 

After all its entertainment, and given the failure in business model that TV broadcasters are facing (at least in Australia if not globally), falling viewerships leading to falling advertising revenes plus rising costs for sports broadcastng rights, so less quality and variety of enterainment programming, on-line games look more attractive. Pity about the quality of them though.

  User Deleted
2/23/13 6:05:45 PM#58
Originally posted by Sovrath
Originally posted by twrule
 

As for those of you who think paying money for a game makes a better community - keep telling yourself that to rationalize shelling out money for nothing each month. That is not at all the case, and anyone who has played WoW, or TERA, Aion, etc, when they were P2P mmos (or still are) knows that is not necessarily the case (those communities were miserable). Likewise, even if you have a greater number of casual 'passer-through' players, most games will also have a core tight-knit community that plays it; you just need to find, or (heaven forbid) create, such a community. The later type of community is likely to be such because they genuinely like the game and the people they play with, not because they are invested via psychological pressure of knowing they need to try and get their money's worth.

Sad that people who rather trot out platitudes like "you get what you pay for" just because they can't swallow the pill that they've been wasting their money.

I think it's sad that you think the small percentage of people who actually pay and pay lots should support your gaming habit.

So you will buy the box huh (if I box is offered) ? That pays for very little over the life and development of a game.

essentially small groups of people, some who should know better, shovel out tons of money to keep these games afloat while large groups of people come and go.

And that's if those people keep these games afloat. Keep in mind Aion hasn't made the money they thought it would with their f2p model.

Uhmm... dude... you need to start thinking beyond your own biases if you hope to have a chance in hell of anyone reading your posts beyond that first 4-5 lines (you do make a point towards the end that p2p devs stopped giving p2p players what they need/wanted but few are gonna read that far when you insult them from the get go).

 

That said you know next to nothing about the dynamics of an F2P game's payment model and what makes it great compared to P2P, yes it is a revolving door, yes some people will never pay, but to put it bluntly: I played Forsaken World, the most grindtastic MMO I've ever known on the face of the Earth for over 5 months with one of my exs and her friends and their friends, why? Because those people made it fun, once that group broke up I stopped playing. A good F2P game will have hooks for keeping people in, hooks for getting people to pay and also have ways of letting you enjoy all the content in-game without ever paying for it (hey if someone wants to sell me cryptic points for dilithium so he/she doesn't have to grind it and I can get my Kumari cruiser all the better, convinience dear chap).

 

Originally posted by Robokapp
Originally posted by Dihoru
Originally posted by Robokapp
Originally posted by DamonVile
Originally posted by Robokapp
Originally posted by Dihoru

 

get with it gents because every argument you could reasonably make against a F2P game with a balanced cash shop you can make against a P2P one as well only that the F2P game has more people playing it.

I'm still waiting for such a F2P...

Let me know when you find a p2p one. :P

i'm writing this in my eve browser.

Call me back when you donno what else to train and the only reason you log on is to chat with friends :P ( 0.0 gets boring after a few years, trust me and as for the rest... you gotta cycle it otherwise you burn out ^^ ).

you know...let's assume I agree with you.

 

A FEW YEARS is not that bad. I can't think of many new MMOs that can say they have a retention of A FEW YEARS.

 

Again, not agreeing with you, just pointing out even THAT is still not too damn bad. 

Unless they shake things up a bit the retention rate will be less because even with emergent gameplay element Goonswarm and TEST are pretty much uncontested right now, the russians have their merits but the game and the metagame as well needs to evolve or else 0.0 will just be spam supercap zones, high-sec will be carebear central and low sec will be "hot drop em with everything except the titans!" with wormholes providing benny hill style chases and pretty interesting small scale sieges.

I joined up in EVE over 7 years ago lad so trust me when I say the retention rate isn't the same, back when I started out capitals were a rare sight, interceptors were running around but to my recollection nothing else tech 2 was yet in, high-sec was a clusterfuck of high-sec alliances, mercenary pvp corps and wars were to put it bluntly not that rare and station games were even rarer, you'd see battleship squadrons supported by frigate wings moving in, interceptors dodging and weaving in "I was there" style... shit was epic no matter where you went... now it's just... meh... and it isn't just me getting jaded, the most pvp you'll see in high-sec are ganks as people generally do not engage these days without numerical superiority... well maybe the wormholers do sometimes when they're chasing down war targets in high-sec but I doubt it even then.

  Kaneth

Elite Member

Joined: 8/19/07
Posts: 1631

2/23/13 6:07:03 PM#59

The shift from P2P to B2P or F2P models is a good thing, as long as variety is also kept.

My biggest gripe with P2P the past number of years is that many of the P2P games haven't been worth the 15 per month. I cut my teeth on mmos in AC1, and I paid I believe $10 per month initially. There was monthly content additions, story arcs, interesting loot system, skill based system, group and solo play, player housing, crafting, etc. That game was more than worth the price of admission. DAoC was also worth the sub because of how great the pvp was, as well as regular changes that were made.

WoW was worth the sub price for a long time, but then we come to points like between WotLK to Cataclysm, and between Cata and MoP. Where we months and months of no content additions, all developer focus was on making the expansion pack and the massive loss of subs after WotLK, during Cata, and going into MoP reflected the feelings of the community at large. Their dev cycle has slowed considerably, and even though MoP brought in a ton of things for casuals to do, the entire game still revolves around the raiding endgame. Many servers are floundering in population imbalances, and you see many folks tranferring servers just to be able to raid anymore.

Look at the numerous P2P games that have gone Freemium over the past number of years as well, and more recently games like TSW going B2P. The sub based model isn't as popular anymore, because so many of the games out there are worth the price. To top it off, many P2P mmos also have Cash Shops with exclusive items available via cash store only (the wow pet store is a great example of this).

I would say, that even though the example article in the OP does have flaws, it does show a shift in the line of thinking of gamers. Why pay 15 per month for a game that may not be better than a B2P or F2P game that is also readily available?

Like other's have said in this thread though. If the game is worth 15 per month, then people will pay to play. Unfortunately, most mmos, in my opinion, simply aren't worth it anymore.

  marsh9799

Novice Member

Joined: 11/30/10
Posts: 101

2/23/13 6:10:11 PM#60

I'm pretty sure the only way you can get to a 45 million US MMOer population is by including things that aren't MMOs like LOL and Diablo.

 

At which point, you might as well count BF3 and Call of Duty... which they may have...

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