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General Discussion

General Discussion 

The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » "US free-to-play audience outnumbers pay-to-play 6 to 1"

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350 posts found
  Robokapp

Elite Member

Joined: 11/15/09
Posts: 4484

The only luck I had today was to have you as my opponent.

2/26/13 5:08:14 PM#261

so f2p AUDIENCE outnumber p2p AUDIENCE by 6 to 1.

 

what about f2p CUSTOMERS?

 

according to the speculative 90/9/1 rule (not a law, just an estimate made by others not by me), a 6 to 1 equates to .6 to 1 meaning the customer ratio is 3 to 5. 3 f2p customers for every 5 p2p customers.

  Dihoru

Elite Member

Joined: 1/11/06
Posts: 2623

2/26/13 5:10:20 PM#262
Originally posted by Robokapp

so f2p AUDIENCE outnumber p2p AUDIENCE by 6 to 1.

 

what about f2p CUSTOMERS?

 

according to the speculative 90/9/1 rule (not a law, just an estimate made by others not by me), a 6 to 1 equates to .6 to 1 meaning the customer ratio is 3 to 5. 3 f2p customers for every 5 p2p customers.

But how many of those P2P customers are gold sellers? :-?

  mmoguy43

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/31/09
Posts: 2293

2/26/13 5:12:04 PM#263
Originally posted by Doogiehowser
Originally posted by mmoguy43
Originally posted by Doogiehowser
Originally posted by mmoguy43
Originally posted by Scot

And as more and more MMO's and players go F2P, MMO's have got worse.

One word. Funding.

More like, they went F2P because they were bad MMOs and since then, STILL aren't good MMOs.

 

The point of the thread is moot. I see that most everyone reailze that.

More people are playing F2P now for many reasons (one being, because, well, they don't have much choice now since the majority of them have made the switch) but it has not improved the already failling MMOs. Also instead of funding the expasion of the game it goes into the cash shop. There isn't much growth like when F2P started with DDO and Lotro. Now, the players are spread out and not committing to any one MMO, thus hop from one to another. So "more F2P playerss!!11", whoop dee do.

 

and now I have deja vu

Good or bad is subjective and when it comes to MMOS it is no so black and hite. MMOS are ongoing process and many of these MMOS that were incomplete and horrible at launch have imoroved by leaps and beyond. STO and AOC for example.

So nope it is not that simple. But then again according to your logic only bad mmos go F2P so if i look at the majority of opinions WOW is a very bad game and yet somehow it has highest P2P players in market. On the other hand majority of gamers and critics love TSW and it had to go B2P to survive.

Subjective or not, it is the general consensus that some MMOs are not good MMOs, fun games maybe but not good MMOs.

If the majority of gamers and critics love TSW then why is it doing so poorly?  I'm not playing it and don't know anyone that is or wants to.

You tell me? you are the one who is talking about majority here and even though what i am not saying is some 'facts' but from what i gathered, majority of player base loves TSW. It has got very good scores and reviews from many critis too. On the other hand WOW gets so much hate, no matter what gaming website or forum you are on and yet it is king od P2P MMOS.

You just boiled everything down to game being good or bad to stay P2P or F2P. Even though it is not that simple that is all i am saying.

I don't know you even brought up WoW. The hate it gets has more to do with it's popularity than what revenue model it uses.

I also don't know why you need to call me out. I notice a trend and so I posted by what I'm seeing. I never said every F2P/P2P game is good or bad. You are the one trying make a point of that.

So, the highlighted part was a lie?

 

Originally posted by Doogiehowser
Originally posted by Dogblaster
[mod edit]

Your personal opinion and experinces are not facts.

[mod edit]

 I will have to agree that more than often what dogblaster has said is true.

Let's build the ultimate MMO 1 feature at a time
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/398555/page/1

  Dogblaster

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/14/12
Posts: 505

2/26/13 5:12:16 PM#264
Originally posted by Lienhart
Originally posted by Dogblaster

Poor pleople outnumbers rich people like 1000(made up) to 1 :D but yea ...

 

Every mmorpg wishes to be P2P or B2P but usually they cant :)

 

+ say what you want. B2P or P2P communities are 1000x better than ANY F2P games. They dont last /stick with the games, they are not loyal and most of  these F2P players are just looking for FREE fun, they like to troll, etc.

Poor people?

What do you have in your garage?

Mercedes E 2003. Not in garage tho .. :(

  Robokapp

Elite Member

Joined: 11/15/09
Posts: 4484

The only luck I had today was to have you as my opponent.

2/26/13 5:16:14 PM#265
Originally posted by Dihoru
Originally posted by Robokapp

so f2p AUDIENCE outnumber p2p AUDIENCE by 6 to 1.

 

what about f2p CUSTOMERS?

 

according to the speculative 90/9/1 rule (not a law, just an estimate made by others not by me), a 6 to 1 equates to .6 to 1 meaning the customer ratio is 3 to 5. 3 f2p customers for every 5 p2p customers.

But how many of those P2P customers are gold sellers? :-?

gold sellers aren't excused from paying their subscriptions. but how many ? we don't know no stats exist for how many people bot in p2p vs f2p.

  kakasaki

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/11/06
Posts: 1259

"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room!"

2/26/13 5:22:20 PM#266

As a crusty MMO veteran, I am resigned to the fact that F2P seems to be the path most MMO games are/will be taking. Doesn't mean I have to like it!!!

 

 

A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true...

  Phelcher

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/01/09
Posts: 1133

2/26/13 5:22:56 PM#267
But once again... F2P is for people who dont want, cannot afford, or have no means for registering for a monthly game. (Ie their own credit card)

Those who eschew free games do so because gaming is not a hobby, but a passtime. So they are unwilling to pay for adventure and get more caught up in the self-bravado of items n things.

"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."


-Nariusseldon

  Dihoru

Elite Member

Joined: 1/11/06
Posts: 2623

2/26/13 5:24:26 PM#268
Originally posted by mmoguy43
Originally posted by Doogiehowser
Originally posted by mmoguy43
Originally posted by Doogiehowser
Originally posted by mmoguy43
Originally posted by Scot

And as more and more MMO's and players go F2P, MMO's have got worse.

One word. Funding.

More like, they went F2P because they were bad MMOs and since then, STILL aren't good MMOs.

 

The point of the thread is moot. I see that most everyone reailze that.

More people are playing F2P now for many reasons (one being, because, well, they don't have much choice now since the majority of them have made the switch) but it has not improved the already failling MMOs. Also instead of funding the expasion of the game it goes into the cash shop. There isn't much growth like when F2P started with DDO and Lotro. Now, the players are spread out and not committing to any one MMO, thus hop from one to another. So "more F2P playerss!!11", whoop dee do.

 

and now I have deja vu

Good or bad is subjective and when it comes to MMOS it is no so black and hite. MMOS are ongoing process and many of these MMOS that were incomplete and horrible at launch have imoroved by leaps and beyond. STO and AOC for example.

So nope it is not that simple. But then again according to your logic only bad mmos go F2P so if i look at the majority of opinions WOW is a very bad game and yet somehow it has highest P2P players in market. On the other hand majority of gamers and critics love TSW and it had to go B2P to survive.

Subjective or not, it is the general consensus that some MMOs are not good MMOs, fun games maybe but not good MMOs.

If the majority of gamers and critics love TSW then why is it doing so poorly?  I'm not playing it and don't know anyone that is or wants to.

You tell me? you are the one who is talking about majority here and even though what i am not saying is some 'facts' but from what i gathered, majority of player base loves TSW. It has got very good scores and reviews from many critis too. On the other hand WOW gets so much hate, no matter what gaming website or forum you are on and yet it is king od P2P MMOS.

You just boiled everything down to game being good or bad to stay P2P or F2P. Even though it is not that simple that is all i am saying.

I don't know you even brought up WoW. The hate it gets has more to do with it's popularity than what revenue model it uses.

I also don't know why you need to call me out. I notice a trend and so I posted by what I'm seeing. I never said every F2P/P2P game is good or bad. You are the one trying make a point of that.

So, the highlighted part was a lie?

 

Originally posted by Doogiehowser
Originally posted by Dogblaster
[mod edit]

Your personal opinion and experinces are not facts.

[mod edit]

 I will have to agree that more than often what dogblaster has said is true.

Played B2P games, allot of F2P games and quite a few P2P ones (EVE and WoW being the only ones I'll admit to paying for publicly)  and over my years of playing games I can tell you that it's the communities, all of em, that have gone down the shitter, true P2P ones are going down the shitter a bit slower but all of em are because of the influx of people whom, as people in my country would say, "lack the 7 years from home" or more bluntly put: were never educated to act in an considerate fashion, the so called "me" generation and make no mistake gents they're universal and they're wrecking MMOs and all online games from the inside by creating toxic communities, demanding games geared towards easy gratification, asserting their importance over all others, etc.

Blame F2P all you want it's in the same crap as your precious P2P games, most of which are already geared towards their type ( want an entitled brat to have a bigger mouth? give him/her a reason to claim "I am a paying customer! I AM RIGHT!" ).

 

Facts really of life, casuals aren't running games, "e-beggers" aren't ruining games, F2P isn't ruining games, hell greedy devs aren't ruining games, what truly is ruining games are the large amount of "me" players running around making the developers think they have audiences for WoW/EQ/w/e clones.

  thark

Elite Member

Joined: 1/01/03
Posts: 1104

2/26/13 5:32:05 PM#269

If you are not paying anything at all for a game, it easy becomes a throw away mentality, you wont take any game seriously as you haven't payd for it..

It's the same effect the piracy has on games and films , If a game or a film doesn't hook you in a few minutes , you just hop to the next and the next etc

Atleast if you have payd for it you will give the game yu bought a few more chances before dismissing it...

 

  Dogblaster

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/14/12
Posts: 505

2/26/13 5:51:05 PM#270
Originally posted by colddog04

"P2P is better because it keeps all the shitty people away from my game!  You can infer from my statement that I am not a shitty person! It's ok for me to act like this because I waste my money differently than other people!"

 

In the end, these hilarious "P2P is a barrier to scum" statements just make the P2P-only people look like the immature group they claim is in F2P games.

[mod edit]

 

All comes to this. Only company and only the developers decide what model they will go with. You can either go with it or dont. BUT STOP FUCKING TELLING THEM WHAT TO DO!

WHY I dont see almost zero topics created by P2P saying this :''This game should be P2P, not F2P'' ''FUCK YOU F2P''

BUT I can everyday see topics created by F2P fans saying .. ''This game should be F2P!'' P2P suck.'' ''Why should I pay for lame subscription?!!'' bla bla bla

Only based on how many ''trolls'' topics are created by F2P fans you can clearly see what F2P players and communities are about.. No thank you.

  dakotaaoc08

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/12/10
Posts: 79

2/26/13 5:51:23 PM#271
I play DCUO it is F2P but my experiance with the community thus far has been nothing but positive.  I tried SWTOR for 6 months it was B2P with a sub and my experiance with the community was nothing but negative, I thik your formula only shows your experiance's with the differant community's and that is by far to small of a sample to make it an accurate statement.
  BeansnBread

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/19/06
Posts: 5540

2/26/13 5:58:03 PM#272
Originally posted by Dogblaster
Originally posted by colddog04

"P2P is better because it keeps all the shitty people away from my game!  You can infer from my statement that I am not a shitty person! It's ok for me to act like this because I waste my money differently than other people!"

 

In the end, these hilarious "P2P is a barrier to scum" statements just make the P2P-only people look like the immature group they claim is in F2P games.

[mod edit]

 

All comes to this. Only company and only the developers decide what model they will go with. You can either pay it or not.

 

Why i dont see hundereds of players saying ''this game should be P2P, not F2P!!'' And all what you see is .. ''This game should be F2P!'' P2P suck.'' ''Why should I pay for lame subscription?!!''

Only based on how many topics made by F2P trolls you can clearly see what F2P players are.. ***************** and ************

So your argument is that because you have seen threads about people wanting a game to go F2P, F2P games have shitty people in them and P2P games have better people.

 

And just so you know, when a P2P game announces F2P, forums light up with people wanting to keep their game P2P. "F2P is SHIT! P2P RULES! God damn kiddies are going to infest my game!" So really, your anecdotal eveidence about the threads you personally see and pay attention to is worthless anyway.

 

I mean, just read this thread to find out how mature the P2P community is. I think it's a toss-up. Both have positives if you look for it and both have negatives if you look for it.

SWTOR is the greatest mmo ever!

  BeansnBread

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/19/06
Posts: 5540

2/26/13 6:10:08 PM#273
Originally posted by Dogblaster
Originally posted by colddog04

So your argument is that because you have seen threads about people wanting a game to go F2P, F2P games have shitty people in them and P2P games have better people.

 

And just so you know, when a P2P game announces F2P, forums light up with people wanting to keep their game P2P. "F2P is SHIT! P2P RULES! God damn kiddies are going to infest my game!" So really, your anecdotal eveidence about the threads you personally see and pay attention to is worthless anyway.

 

I mean, just read this thread to find out how mature the P2P community is.

[mod edit]

Yeah, I see the difference. P2P players are getting duped by the devs of almost every major release in the last 5 years. It's really the lifetime subbers that I feel the most sorry for.

 

And you are overstating the amount and quality of the F2P players that are coming in and starting threads that beg for games to go F2P. I rarely, if ever see them. You apparently see them all the time. If anything I see crying by P2P players about their game going F2P all the time. And you're right, that does make sense. They just got bamboozled out of their preferred payment method.

 

And I'm not knocking anyone that prefers one payment method over the other. But this thread certainly has a lot to say about the more vocal P2P-only crowd.

SWTOR is the greatest mmo ever!

  Dogblaster

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/14/12
Posts: 505

2/26/13 6:17:01 PM#274
Originally posted by colddog04
Yeah, I see the difference. P2P players are getting duped by the devs of almost every major release in the last 5 years. It's really the lifetime subbers that I feel the most sorry for.

 

And you are overstating the amount and quality of the F2P players that are coming in and starting threads that beg for games to go F2P. I rarely, if ever see them. You apparently see them all the time. If anything I see crying by P2P players about their game going F2P all the time. And you're right, that does make sense. They just got bamboozled out of their preferred payment method.

 

And I'm not knocking anyone that prefers one payment method over the other. But this thread certainly has a lot to say about the more vocal P2P-only crowd.

Ah okey so get this straight .. JUST because there are some games/developers who fucked up the game or didnt keep the promise all those F2P players have now right to demand F2P in every new game? Awesome .. lol

 

Apple suck and did sold me broken product .. I have right to demand free product from HTC/Sony/Samsung/.. Awesome :)

 

P.S.: Sadly I had a chance to play many F2P games, League of Legends has the worst community I have ever seen. Every game I played there made me worse person, all the rage, verbal abuse, trolling in that game is just sad ..from ranked to normal, from lvl 1 to 30.

Why do you think that SWTOR had to introduce new policy on forums? So much more trolling and complaing started after F2p players came in it was unbearable.

  BeansnBread

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/19/06
Posts: 5540

2/26/13 6:22:02 PM#275
Originally posted by Dogblaster
Originally posted by colddog04
Yeah, I see the difference. P2P players are getting duped by the devs of almost every major release in the last 5 years. It's really the lifetime subbers that I feel the most sorry for.

 

And you are overstating the amount and quality of the F2P players that are coming in and starting threads that beg for games to go F2P. I rarely, if ever see them. You apparently see them all the time. If anything I see crying by P2P players about their game going F2P all the time. And you're right, that does make sense. They just got bamboozled out of their preferred payment method.

 

And I'm not knocking anyone that prefers one payment method over the other. But this thread certainly has a lot to say about the more vocal P2P-only crowd.

Ah okey so get this straight .. JUST because there are some games/developers who fucked up the game or didnt keep the promise all those F2P players have now right to demand F2P in every new game? Awesome .. lol

 

Apple suck and did sold me broken product .. I have right to demand free product from HTC/Sony/Samsung/.. Awesome :)

No, that wasn't what I said at all. That's really far off. I was actually saying it made sense that P2P players would complain when their game went F2P. It's ridiculous that games would open up with box + sub to get that initial burst of cash only to switch models 6 months after release. 

 

But this isn't just happening with a few games. This is like every major release for the last 5 years. It's awful that they do it. But apparently, P2P is only sustainable in very few situations right now. It's a really competitive market right now and people are finding ways to compete through various F2P models.

 

And yes, F2P players have the right to beg for whatever they want. Just like P2P players also have that right. 

 

And I have no idea why you think that last sentence would apply to anything I wrote. Edit: You edited so it turned into the second to last sentence. But if you base all games community on LoL, I don't know what to say. That is a 1 game sample size you are basing your opinions on.

SWTOR is the greatest mmo ever!

  Phelcher

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/01/09
Posts: 1133

2/26/13 6:26:01 PM#276
Originally posted by colddog04
Originally posted by Dogblaster
Originally posted by colddog04

So your argument is that because you have seen threads about people wanting a game to go F2P, F2P games have shitty people in them and P2P games have better people.

 

And just so you know, when a P2P game announces F2P, forums light up with people wanting to keep their game P2P. "F2P is SHIT! P2P RULES! God damn kiddies are going to infest my game!" So really, your anecdotal eveidence about the threads you personally see and pay attention to is worthless anyway.

 

I mean, just read this thread to find out how mature the P2P community is.

[mod edit]

Yeah, I see the difference. P2P players are getting duped by the devs of almost every major release in the last 5 years. It's really the lifetime subbers that I feel the most sorry for.

 

And you are overstating the amount and quality of the F2P players that are coming in and starting threads that beg for games to go F2P. I rarely, if ever see them. You apparently see them all the time. If anything I see crying by P2P players about their game going F2P all the time. And you're right, that does make sense. They just got bamboozled out of their preferred payment method.

 

And I'm not knocking anyone that prefers one payment method over the other. But this thread certainly has a lot to say about the more vocal P2P-only crowd.

 

So what u are saying, is that because you are an average consumer and was "duped" buy on of these devs, that you dont have additional money to try every game you want... so now u can try every free game u want.. because that alleviates ur own fear of wasting a few bucks on a game. Honestly, your arvument is hystarical... why really wants to play a free to play game, only because it is free.

"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."


-Nariusseldon

  BeansnBread

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/19/06
Posts: 5540

2/26/13 6:30:28 PM#277
Originally posted by Phelcher
Originally posted by colddog04
Originally posted by Dogblaster
Originally posted by colddog04

So your argument is that because you have seen threads about people wanting a game to go F2P, F2P games have shitty people in them and P2P games have better people.

 

And just so you know, when a P2P game announces F2P, forums light up with people wanting to keep their game P2P. "F2P is SHIT! P2P RULES! God damn kiddies are going to infest my game!" So really, your anecdotal eveidence about the threads you personally see and pay attention to is worthless anyway.

 

I mean, just read this thread to find out how mature the P2P community is.

[mod edit]

Yeah, I see the difference. P2P players are getting duped by the devs of almost every major release in the last 5 years. It's really the lifetime subbers that I feel the most sorry for.

 

And you are overstating the amount and quality of the F2P players that are coming in and starting threads that beg for games to go F2P. I rarely, if ever see them. You apparently see them all the time. If anything I see crying by P2P players about their game going F2P all the time. And you're right, that does make sense. They just got bamboozled out of their preferred payment method.

 

And I'm not knocking anyone that prefers one payment method over the other. But this thread certainly has a lot to say about the more vocal P2P-only crowd.

 

So what u are saying, is that because you are an average consumer and was "duped" buy on of these devs, that you dont have additional money to try every game you want... so now u can try every free game u want.. because that alleviates ur own fear of wasting a few bucks on a game. Honestly, your arvument is hystarical... why really wants to play a free to play game, only because it is free.

No, I'm not saying that at all. Another wierd answer that is really far off.

 

I am currently paying for 2 games. WoW (to play arenas with my RL brother next season) and EVE (because it's great). I also play GW2 with my friends from other games (a B2P game) and occasionally bullshit around in Planetside 2 (a F2P game. I've spent $20 on it).

 

My argument isn't that I only want to play a free game because it's free. How you got that is anyone's guess.

SWTOR is the greatest mmo ever!

  Doogiehowser

Elite Member

Joined: 3/14/12
Posts: 1930

2/26/13 6:47:53 PM#278
Originally posted by mmoguy43
Originally posted by Doogiehowser
Originally posted by mmoguy43
Originally posted by Doogiehowser
Originally posted by mmoguy43
Originally posted by Scot

And as more and more MMO's and players go F2P, MMO's have got worse.

One word. Funding.

More like, they went F2P because they were bad MMOs and since then, STILL aren't good MMOs.

 

The point of the thread is moot. I see that most everyone reailze that.

More people are playing F2P now for many reasons (one being, because, well, they don't have much choice now since the majority of them have made the switch) but it has not improved the already failling MMOs. Also instead of funding the expasion of the game it goes into the cash shop. There isn't much growth like when F2P started with DDO and Lotro. Now, the players are spread out and not committing to any one MMO, thus hop from one to another. So "more F2P playerss!!11", whoop dee do.

 

and now I have deja vu

Good or bad is subjective and when it comes to MMOS it is no so black and hite. MMOS are ongoing process and many of these MMOS that were incomplete and horrible at launch have imoroved by leaps and beyond. STO and AOC for example.

So nope it is not that simple. But then again according to your logic only bad mmos go F2P so if i look at the majority of opinions WOW is a very bad game and yet somehow it has highest P2P players in market. On the other hand majority of gamers and critics love TSW and it had to go B2P to survive.

Subjective or not, it is the general consensus that some MMOs are not good MMOs, fun games maybe but not good MMOs.

If the majority of gamers and critics love TSW then why is it doing so poorly?  I'm not playing it and don't know anyone that is or wants to.

You tell me? you are the one who is talking about majority here and even though what i am not saying is some 'facts' but from what i gathered, majority of player base loves TSW. It has got very good scores and reviews from many critis too. On the other hand WOW gets so much hate, no matter what gaming website or forum you are on and yet it is king od P2P MMOS.

You just boiled everything down to game being good or bad to stay P2P or F2P. Even though it is not that simple that is all i am saying.

I don't know you even brought up WoW. The hate it gets has more to do with it's popularity than what revenue model it uses.

I also don't know why you need to call me out. I notice a trend and so I posted by what I'm seeing. I never said every F2P/P2P game is good or bad. You are the one trying make a point of that.

So, the highlighted part was a lie?

 

Originally posted by Doogiehowser
Originally posted by Dogblaster
[mod edit]

Your personal opinion and experinces are not facts.

[mod edit]

 I will have to agree that more than often what dogblaster has said is true.

Yes i brought up WOW to show that your assesment regarding what majority considers as a good or bad. Your view that simply if MMO is good it stays P2P and if it is bad it goes F2P is very simplistic at best and extremely black and white.

I wasn't calling you out though. Simply disagreeing with your view point. A lot of good games also change their payment models because sometimes even though good games they fail to generate enough interest in gamers for number of reasons It could be because it is niche, more challenging, complex and  less advertisement etc.

And as far as dogblaster is concerned i don't know what he said can be considered as true. Unless you mean his constant generalsiations, insults and acggressive attitude towards F2P players. And ignoring the irony that if he is trying to show that P2P players are more prudent and mature, he is completely failing at that.

"The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.'
-Jesse Schell

"Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid."
-Luke McKinney

  greenreen

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/19/12
Posts: 1391

2/26/13 7:24:02 PM#279

Breaking News *** beep beep

Scoop McGee here on the scene reporting to you LIVE!

"US free-to-play despisers outnumber pay-to-play 5 to 1"

http://i56.tinypic.com/ip5e9g.png

  A.Blackloch

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/21/07
Posts: 836

"Choke on the smoke from my quill."

2/26/13 8:29:48 PM#280

Didn't really know that talking about F2P and P2P requires this much modding and deleting posts. It's quite a chore to play catch up when you keep erasing stuff faster than we write it down.

Maybe it's those big F2P advertisements on the site that get bad rep here...

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