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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » "US free-to-play audience outnumbers pay-to-play 6 to 1"

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350 posts found
  mmoguy43

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/31/09
Posts: 2325

2/26/13 3:25:25 PM#241
Originally posted by Scot

And as more and more MMO's and players go F2P, MMO's have got worse.

One word. Funding.

More like, they went F2P because they were bad MMOs and since then, STILL aren't good MMOs.

 

The point of the thread is moot. I see that most everyone reailze that.

More people are playing F2P now for many reasons (one being, because, well, they don't have much choice now since the majority of them have made the switch) but it has not improved the already failling MMOs. Also instead of funding the expasion of the game it goes into the cash shop. There isn't much growth like when F2P started with DDO and Lotro. Now, the players are spread out and not committing to any one MMO, thus hop from one to another. So "more F2P playerss!!11", whoop dee do.

 

and now I have deja vu

Let's build the ultimate MMO 1 feature at a time
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/398555/page/1

"blocked nariusseldon since forever"

  nbtscan

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/06/06
Posts: 479

2/26/13 3:52:41 PM#242


Originally posted by nariusseldon "If you were to look at the growth of the audience alone, the market for F2P games is substantially larger than that for pay-to-play. Six times larger, in fact." ... The good news is that in 2012, F2P MMOs made more than their P2P counterparts, capturing the majority of the MMO US market’s revenue. The tricky part lies in how to capture and replicate this success."  

Well when you outnumber P2P games by 6:1...derp.

  RefMinor

Novice Member

Joined: 7/16/11
Posts: 3542

Hipster

2/26/13 4:01:35 PM#243
Well, I can be counted as a user of about 6 F2P MMOs, none of which I played much and 1 P2P MMO, so I fit the stats perfectly
  Doogiehowser

Novice Member

Joined: 3/14/12
Posts: 1939

2/26/13 4:06:04 PM#244
Originally posted by mmoguy43
Originally posted by Scot

And as more and more MMO's and players go F2P, MMO's have got worse.

One word. Funding.

More like, they went F2P because they were bad MMOs and since then, STILL aren't good MMOs.

 

The point of the thread is moot. I see that most everyone reailze that.

More people are playing F2P now for many reasons (one being, because, well, they don't have much choice now since the majority of them have made the switch) but it has not improved the already failling MMOs. Also instead of funding the expasion of the game it goes into the cash shop. There isn't much growth like when F2P started with DDO and Lotro. Now, the players are spread out and not committing to any one MMO, thus hop from one to another. So "more F2P playerss!!11", whoop dee do.

 

and now I have deja vu

Good or bad is subjective and when it comes to MMOS it is no so black and hite. MMOS are ongoing process and many of these MMOS that were incomplete and horrible at launch have imoroved by leaps and beyond. STO and AOC for example.

So nope it is not that simple. But then again according to your logic only bad mmos go F2P so if i look at the majority of opinions WOW is a very bad game and yet somehow it has highest P2P players in market. On the other hand majority of gamers and critics love TSW and it had to go B2P to survive.

"The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.'
-Jesse Schell

"Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid."
-Luke McKinney

  User Deleted
2/26/13 4:09:46 PM#245
Originally posted by Doogiehowser
Originally posted by mmoguy43
Originally posted by Scot

And as more and more MMO's and players go F2P, MMO's have got worse.

One word. Funding.

More like, they went F2P because they were bad MMOs and since then, STILL aren't good MMOs.

 

The point of the thread is moot. I see that most everyone reailze that.

More people are playing F2P now for many reasons (one being, because, well, they don't have much choice now since the majority of them have made the switch) but it has not improved the already failling MMOs. Also instead of funding the expasion of the game it goes into the cash shop. There isn't much growth like when F2P started with DDO and Lotro. Now, the players are spread out and not committing to any one MMO, thus hop from one to another. So "more F2P playerss!!11", whoop dee do.

 

and now I have deja vu

Good or bad is subjective and when it comes to MMOS it is no so black and hite. MMOS are ongoing process and many of these MMOS that were incomplete and horrible at launch have imoroved by leaps and beyond. STO and AOC for example.

So nope it is not that simple. But then again according to your logic only bad mmos go F2P so if i look at the majority of opinions WOW is a very bad game and yet somehow it has highest P2P players in market. On the other hand majority of gamers and critics love TSW and it had to go B2P to survive.

Please don't bring logic into the topic! It will scare the P2P hardliners away!

  dakotaaoc08

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/12/10
Posts: 79

2/26/13 4:15:13 PM#246
it doesn't matter to me I purchased a lifetime sub for TSW and still feel like that game cheated me out of some serious cash.
  User Deleted
2/26/13 4:21:47 PM#247
Originally posted by dakotaaoc08
it doesn't matter to me I purchased a lifetime sub for TSW and still feel like that game cheated me out of some serious cash.

To use the same logic P2Pers use: how much was the lifetime sub? 400$? That's roughly 15 movies you could've watched or 23 hours of enjoyment (on average), did you enjoy TSW for that amount of time? Yes? then you got your money's worth accoring to a P2Per's logic.

  Cecropia

Gumshoe

Joined: 3/06/09
Posts: 3285

Poacher killer.

2/26/13 4:24:22 PM#248
Originally posted by Dihoru
Originally posted by dakotaaoc08
it doesn't matter to me I purchased a lifetime sub for TSW and still feel like that game cheated me out of some serious cash.

To use the same logic P2Pers use: how much was the lifetime sub? 400$? That's roughly 15 movies you could've watched or 23 hours of enjoyment (on average), did you enjoy TSW for that amount of time? Yes? then you got your money's worth accoring to a P2Per's logic.

You've crossed over into "those people" territory. Good luck with that.

"Chuck's a good fighter but he's a UFC fighter... this is Pride." - Quinton Rampage Jackson
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb

  greenreen

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/19/12
Posts: 1454

2/26/13 4:27:45 PM#249
Originally posted by dakotaaoc08
it doesn't matter to me I purchased a lifetime sub for TSW and still feel like that game cheated me out of some serious cash.

They weren't the first either to get lifetime money then go free on the money they got.  There should be laws against changing their payment model and offering goofy perks like LOTRO did but that's what the TOS is for - anytime we can do anything, sigh. Messed part was that people asked them on the forum if they were going to do free and they said NO, they said that, they lied and got away with it. That was my lifetime blunder in comparison and I can't even get rid of the account to another person without getting a CC in my name and giving them my name etc. Already tried giving it away once, big pain. Only time I would buy lifetime now would be if it came with a minimum years contract on it for the game's payment model. It always bugs me when people talk about the success of LOTRO after they had all the cash push of lifetime subs, grrrr, you can't even trust 'reputable' companies.

Chin up - better will come.

  Dogblaster

Novice Member

Joined: 3/14/12
Posts: 505

2/26/13 4:29:13 PM#250
Life time sub is $200 and if he bought it he must have had a blast :)
  User Deleted
2/26/13 4:29:43 PM#251
Originally posted by Cecropia
Originally posted by Dihoru
Originally posted by dakotaaoc08
it doesn't matter to me I purchased a lifetime sub for TSW and still feel like that game cheated me out of some serious cash.

To use the same logic P2Pers use: how much was the lifetime sub? 400$? That's roughly 15 movies you could've watched or 23 hours of enjoyment (on average), did you enjoy TSW for that amount of time? Yes? then you got your money's worth accoring to a P2Per's logic.

You've crossed over into "those people" territory. Good luck with that.

After having my subset of players continually slammed with ignorant generalized comments in so many threads in the last week alone? Yeah, I'm going into that territory but only as much as stating the logical constructs some (not all) use to justify their warped views and parodying it.

 

Fun fact: I am technically also P2Per as I play EVE-Online a regular basis (with breaks) so ^^.

  MadnessRealm

Elite Member

Joined: 1/02/09
Posts: 2710

Ignorance is Bliss.

2/26/13 4:30:01 PM#252
Originally posted by Yalexy

 


Originally posted by MadnessRealm

Originally posted by Yalexy Only tells us, that six out of seven players are too poor to pay a fair price for a good game. Oh... and F2P-titles are all not good, and I've tested basically every freakin' MMO released in the last 10 years.
If that was truly the case, the F2P business model would not be profitable, and arguable more than many P2Ps (otherwise why would they swap to the F2P model, right?). Those 6 out of 7 players are not "too poor to pay", they're playing the game they like and paying what they want to.

 

The F2P-business works, as underaged gamers pour tons of money into these games, most usually with the money from their unaware parents.

Additionally. Show me a game that went from P2P to F2P that was actually good to begin with.

The amount of baseless arguments is staggering. I assume you have some insider knowledge into the working of families with kids playing F2P titles? Would you care to share those sources with the rest of us?

As for the last line, there's not much point debating it since "Good" is an entirely subjective term but I'll bite. LOTRO comes to mind. I don't like LOTRO since it's personally not my type of game, but it was a relatively successful P2P title that arguably turned F2P as a result of DDO's success as a F2P title. (Note: The notion of success in this case is based on Turbine's acknowledgement and not on personal preconceptions).

------
Your daily dose of common sense since 2009!

  User Deleted
2/26/13 4:33:36 PM#253
Originally posted by MadnessRealm
Originally posted by Yalexy

 


Originally posted by MadnessRealm

Originally posted by Yalexy Only tells us, that six out of seven players are too poor to pay a fair price for a good game. Oh... and F2P-titles are all not good, and I've tested basically every freakin' MMO released in the last 10 years.
If that was truly the case, the F2P business model would not be profitable, and arguable more than many P2Ps (otherwise why would they swap to the F2P model, right?). Those 6 out of 7 players are not "too poor to pay", they're playing the game they like and paying what they want to.

 

The F2P-business works, as underaged gamers pour tons of money into these games, most usually with the money from their unaware parents.

Additionally. Show me a game that went from P2P to F2P that was actually good to begin with.

The amount of baseless arguments is staggering. I assume you have some insider knowledge into the working of families with kids playing F2P titles? Would you care to share those sources with the rest of us?

As for the last line, there's not much point debating it since "Good" is an entirely subjective term but I'll bite. LOTRO comes to mind. I don't like LOTRO since it's personally not my type of game, but it was a relatively successful P2P title that arguably turned F2P as a result of DDO's success as a F2P title. (Note: The notion of success in this case is based on Turbine's acknowledgement and not on personal preconceptions).

Nitpicking here really but DDO has a freemium, IE extended trial, model, though if you are to state successful F2P games you might as well throw in LoL and World of Tanks because those are Free to Play games though not MMOs ^^.

  MadnessRealm

Elite Member

Joined: 1/02/09
Posts: 2710

Ignorance is Bliss.

2/26/13 4:42:57 PM#254
Originally posted by Dihoru
Originally posted by MadnessRealm
Originally posted by Yalexy

 


Originally posted by MadnessRealm

Originally posted by Yalexy Only tells us, that six out of seven players are too poor to pay a fair price for a good game. Oh... and F2P-titles are all not good, and I've tested basically every freakin' MMO released in the last 10 years.
If that was truly the case, the F2P business model would not be profitable, and arguable more than many P2Ps (otherwise why would they swap to the F2P model, right?). Those 6 out of 7 players are not "too poor to pay", they're playing the game they like and paying what they want to.

 

The F2P-business works, as underaged gamers pour tons of money into these games, most usually with the money from their unaware parents.

Additionally. Show me a game that went from P2P to F2P that was actually good to begin with.

The amount of baseless arguments is staggering. I assume you have some insider knowledge into the working of families with kids playing F2P titles? Would you care to share those sources with the rest of us?

As for the last line, there's not much point debating it since "Good" is an entirely subjective term but I'll bite. LOTRO comes to mind. I don't like LOTRO since it's personally not my type of game, but it was a relatively successful P2P title that arguably turned F2P as a result of DDO's success as a F2P title. (Note: The notion of success in this case is based on Turbine's acknowledgement and not on personal preconceptions).

Nitpicking here really but DDO has a freemium, IE extended trial, model, though if you are to state successful F2P games you might as well throw in LoL and World of Tanks because those are Free to Play games though not MMOs ^^.

The question was to mention P2P titles that turned F2P. I was just saying that LOTRO is an example of that, but that it might not have turned F2P had the F2P model of DDO not worked. As far as DDO's model goes, since it's technically possible to farm the Turbine currency by playing the game, I'd more or less still consider DDO as a F2P, albeit a fairly restricted one.

------
Your daily dose of common sense since 2009!

  dakotaaoc08

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/12/10
Posts: 79

2/26/13 4:47:59 PM#255
actually know I would have more enjoyment watching snakes on a plane 15 times in a row the combat was clunky and that is being complementative, I have switched to a F2P with a sub option though and am extremely happy there, honestly I don't have a preferance and F2P,P2P or even B2P is not going the way I feel about a game that I find enjoyable, I will say that after purchasing two lifetime subs in my mmo history I will never buy another one.
  mmoguy43

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/31/09
Posts: 2325

2/26/13 4:51:17 PM#256
Originally posted by Doogiehowser
Originally posted by mmoguy43
Originally posted by Scot

And as more and more MMO's and players go F2P, MMO's have got worse.

One word. Funding.

More like, they went F2P because they were bad MMOs and since then, STILL aren't good MMOs.

 

The point of the thread is moot. I see that most everyone reailze that.

More people are playing F2P now for many reasons (one being, because, well, they don't have much choice now since the majority of them have made the switch) but it has not improved the already failling MMOs. Also instead of funding the expasion of the game it goes into the cash shop. There isn't much growth like when F2P started with DDO and Lotro. Now, the players are spread out and not committing to any one MMO, thus hop from one to another. So "more F2P playerss!!11", whoop dee do.

 

and now I have deja vu

Good or bad is subjective and when it comes to MMOS it is no so black and hite. MMOS are ongoing process and many of these MMOS that were incomplete and horrible at launch have imoroved by leaps and beyond. STO and AOC for example.

So nope it is not that simple. But then again according to your logic only bad mmos go F2P so if i look at the majority of opinions WOW is a very bad game and yet somehow it has highest P2P players in market. On the other hand majority of gamers and critics love TSW and it had to go B2P to survive.

Subjective or not, it is the general consensus that some MMOs are not good MMOs, fun games maybe but not good MMOs.

If the majority of gamers and critics love TSW then why is it doing so poorly?  I'm not playing it and don't know anyone that is or wants to.

Let's build the ultimate MMO 1 feature at a time
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/398555/page/1

"blocked nariusseldon since forever"

  User Deleted
2/26/13 4:52:46 PM#257
Originally posted by Dogblaster
[mod edit]

Proof of facts? Come on dogblaster I know you're a fanatical person but have some proof of your allegations ;).

World of Warcraft: Community is fractured, prone to drama, gankers on pvp servers drop routinely on your head when questing, content patches are 3-6 months apart.

Ultima Online: Community went downhill after the 2nd content patch, has not recovered since, content patches/expansions every 2-3 years (optimistic estimate).

The only MMO that kinda backs your "facts" is EVE-Online but the community there is better than any other MMO's because you find every sort there, from entitled pricks ( you can blow up and grief ad nauseum) to corp thiefs (pvp op targets), gankers, trolls, white knights, average joes, derps, etc,etc but I highly doubt you will ever play EVE ergo your definitions of "better" means carebears or bleeding hearts which tbh... is sad.

  Doogiehowser

Novice Member

Joined: 3/14/12
Posts: 1939

2/26/13 4:56:11 PM#258
Originally posted by Dogblaster
[mod edit]

Your personal opinion and experinces are not facts.

[mod edit]

"The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.'
-Jesse Schell

"Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid."
-Luke McKinney

  Doogiehowser

Novice Member

Joined: 3/14/12
Posts: 1939

2/26/13 4:59:26 PM#259
Originally posted by mmoguy43
Originally posted by Doogiehowser
Originally posted by mmoguy43
Originally posted by Scot

And as more and more MMO's and players go F2P, MMO's have got worse.

One word. Funding.

More like, they went F2P because they were bad MMOs and since then, STILL aren't good MMOs.

 

The point of the thread is moot. I see that most everyone reailze that.

More people are playing F2P now for many reasons (one being, because, well, they don't have much choice now since the majority of them have made the switch) but it has not improved the already failling MMOs. Also instead of funding the expasion of the game it goes into the cash shop. There isn't much growth like when F2P started with DDO and Lotro. Now, the players are spread out and not committing to any one MMO, thus hop from one to another. So "more F2P playerss!!11", whoop dee do.

 

and now I have deja vu

Good or bad is subjective and when it comes to MMOS it is no so black and hite. MMOS are ongoing process and many of these MMOS that were incomplete and horrible at launch have imoroved by leaps and beyond. STO and AOC for example.

So nope it is not that simple. But then again according to your logic only bad mmos go F2P so if i look at the majority of opinions WOW is a very bad game and yet somehow it has highest P2P players in market. On the other hand majority of gamers and critics love TSW and it had to go B2P to survive.

Subjective or not, it is the general consensus that some MMOs are not good MMOs, fun games maybe but not good MMOs.

If the majority of gamers and critics love TSW then why is it doing so poorly?  I'm not playing it and don't know anyone that is or wants to.

You tell me? you are the one who is talking about majority here and even though what i am not saying is some 'facts' but from what i gathered, majority of player base loves TSW. It has got very good scores and reviews from many critis too. On the other hand WOW gets so much hate, no matter what gaming website or forum you are on and yet it is king of P2P MMOS.

You just boiled everything down to game being good or bad to stay P2P or F2P. Even though it is not that simple that is all i am saying.

"The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.'
-Jesse Schell

"Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid."
-Luke McKinney

  MadnessRealm

Elite Member

Joined: 1/02/09
Posts: 2710

Ignorance is Bliss.

2/26/13 5:01:59 PM#260
Originally posted by Dogblaster
[mod edit]

But to what extent are they better or worse?

If anything WoW definitively does not have the most respectable community out there. For that matter, if the subscription model actually worked as a filter for bad communities, Xbox Live probably wouldn't be such a shithole. 

However, there's no denying that F2Ps tend to have not so great community because of the lack of any barrier of entry, but a paywall is by no mean a method to keep the bad apples out. We've got entire internet communities that reeks of immaturity and rage and they don't fall within the boundaries of F2P vs P2P. 

 

And as far as "More updates" goes, it's arguable. Aside from RIFT, there aren't many P2P titles that are releasing a lot of  content (free, no less) as well as expansions within such a short timeframe. On the other hand, you've also got F2P titles like Mabinogi that released 6 content updates (technically 8, but don't want to go into details) in 2012 alone. Of course it's not the 'norm' in the F2P market, rather Nexon is probably the only ones to update at such a fast pace in the F2P market, but I'd argue Trion Worlds are also probably the only ones updating RIFT at this pace in the P2P market.

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