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News & Features Discussion  » Neverwinter: The Rant #1 - Fixing the Holy Trinity

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85 posts found
  Brynn

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/17/03
Posts: 342

2/19/13 12:22:21 AM#61
I've always enjoyed the trinity, but I'm so glad we can also solo when we choose in other games. I like a choice, for when I feel like grouping, and when I need to solo because my friends aren't online. I don't like pick up groups. I think LotR cured me of pugs.
  jedensuscg

Novice Member

Joined: 1/18/06
Posts: 212

2/19/13 7:35:08 AM#62
Originally posted by Trionicus

Nothing new here, hell, WOW does all the things he's suggesting anyway, like how Paladin's can (or used to haven't played in a while) heal with Divine Storm.

I'm not one to remain stagnant though, I think there is a better system than the Trinity, I'm sure a few smart people have already come up with a superior alternative, in a smokey basement somewhere. Maybe not smokey, they might have vaoprizers.

For those thinking "blah etc..so on and that we don't need to reinvent the wheel." I have one word for you, TWEEL!

The issue with WoW and the paladin (and other classes that could heal) was that the fight mechanics forced you to NOT heal, or as a healer, toss in some DPS.  There was no, ok the healer is a bit weak, so I will throw in a few off heals, since my class lets me do it.  Many fights were so DPS intensive, that you were trying to max out your dps to the point that you could not even bother to look at anothers health bar.  If the healer could not heal, then you wiped, end of story.  same with healers.  They could not backup the dps at all, because the majority of the fights, if you missed JUST ONE HEAL, the tank tied and you wiped.

While I to backup the trinity, and think GW2 went way over the top with their attempt to remove the trinity, I think complety deadlocking you into your role like WoW is also a bad move.  You should be able to be at least a little flexible.  WoW and Rift are big examples of ZERO flexibility.  Certain classes did certain things best.  The developers knew that players would bring whats best at all times.  So they designed the fights so that if you did not bring what was best, then you failed.  There was no imagination, no flexibility.  You had to have specific classes, for their specific buffs.  Each role was deadlocked into that role.  If one person could not perform at a high enough level, no one else would help them, because to do so would ruin everything.

That is what I hated about WoW most.  A raid makeup had very little room for change.  At least with rift, they have the support role.  And they tend to design fights that consider the fact the support clas might not do as much DPS, or as much healing as another support class.  But even then, if you try and go into a fight with a support class that does not do this or that best, then you will find yourself sitting out.

  Lonzo

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 8/05/04
Posts: 198

2/19/13 8:08:40 AM#63
The Holy Trinity is the future of all successfull MMOs. STILL!

People need to be able to specialize on a role! All other solutions are just plain boring!
  botrytis

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 2542

2/19/13 8:22:54 AM#64
Originally posted by Lonzo
The Holy Trinity is the future of all successfull MMOs. STILL!

People need to be able to specialize on a role! All other solutions are just plain boring!

(wish you would state what you said as opinion - declaratives make it sound like it is fact and it is not).

 

In my opinion,there is room for both although I find Trinity games very limiting and  very narrow of focus. I mean, look at Rift, which supposedly had a great system where you could almost do anything with any profession. It ends up doing high level dungeons, you are stuck with Warriors as tanks, clerics as healers and Rogue and Eles as DPS - boring as all shit. As I stated earlier, it is the players fault not the game's fault that this occurs. Players get used to certain things and they ALWAYS expect it a certain way. This is why, for example, many players were dissappointed with GW2 as they could not play it they way the normally play any MMO - NOT THE GAMES FAULT.

"In 50 years, when I talk to my grandchildren about these days, I'll make sure to mention what an accomplished MMO player I was. They are going to be so proud ..."
by Naqaj - 7/17/2013 MMORPG.com forum

  Nanfoodle

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/23/06
Posts: 3508

2/19/13 9:11:43 AM#65
Originally posted by BillMurphy
It was only hinted at with a Storm Legion clip, but Rift has a decent system, marred only by the fact that you still must learn a new way to play with each "build". I'm looking for a system that allows you to play the way you know how but with different functions.

If this type of class system was married to a game as well polished as GW2 or WoW I would be all over that game. I persoanlly dont get all the class restrictions. Most MMOers have been MMOing for so long we dont need to be hand held to learn a class. Give me a class that can switch between healing, tanking or DPS with the same skill sets and I would be sold on such a mechanic but the rest of the game would need to be there, not 1/2 made like SWToR was.

 
  jtcgs

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/28/04
Posts: 1843

2/19/13 9:24:26 AM#66
Originally posted by Vesavius
Originally posted by jtcgs

 Dependence is Dependence and there is nothing good about it. small defined roles were created so bad players can be good, it was meant to expand the games to a larger audience.

 

I am just not so extreme in this as you obviously are, and nor do I want to reduce this debate to 'roles are for noobs'.

I enjoy strong roles because every game I have played that didn't have a heavy use of them (mainly CoH and GW2) the play has been zergy and frustrating, especially when dealing with PUGs.

I get that you are looking at this from a 'pro' viewpoint, but these games *have* to look at a wider audience than the top 10% (or whatever). That's just being realistic. The 'larger audience' is probably why you even have games at this point to say that are 'too easy'.

 

I do not accept that roles equal 'easy mode' though, not by defintion anyhow.

 I am just not so extreme in this as you obviously are, and nor do I want to reduce this debate to "pros vs joes".

I enjoy strong characters because every game I have played that didn't allow you to play the way you wanted (almost every game) has been zergy and boring from lack of variety in gameplay, especially when dealing with PUGs! (yeah go on and tell me PUGs in class structured games are good) LEEEEEROOOOOOOOOOY JENKINS! came out of what game again?

I get that you are looking at this from a "tell me how to play" viewpoint, but these games were created to be for a wider audience and have been dumbed down beyond belief. That's just being realistic.

I do not accept that roles are equal to dynamics like a bunker elementalist in GW2 which has made most of the people on Elitist Jerks crack and show there is nothing elite about them unless they can faceroll their class. Roles are not equal in difficulty to an open class system.

“I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson

  kirak2009

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/20/09
Posts: 545

2/19/13 9:27:28 AM#67

Nice article,  i agree with most of it.  One thing I hope is that anger and rage is never imparted upon me. Most calming rant I have ever heard

Ya know what grinds my gears!

 

Nice video though A+

"All expectation leads to suffering" Buhhda

  jtcgs

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/28/04
Posts: 1843

2/19/13 9:35:39 AM#68
Originally posted by Praetalus
Originally posted by jtcgs
Originally posted by Vesavius

Bill is right here though... in these games class dependence is bad, but role dependence is good.

 Dependence is Dependence and there is nothing good about it. small defined roles were created so bad players can be good, it was meant to expand the games to a larger audience.

A good player can play any way he is allowed and they sure as hell dont need a role that has you sitting there pressing a few buttons to play his small "role" in a group...its the very reason why so many people hate GW2, they cant wrap their heads around being able to DPS, Tank, Heal, CC, Buff and Debuff all with the same character and do it all in the same battle. Its just too much for them because they cant break the limits placed on them by the trinity.

Bunker elementalist forever!

 

I do not agree with anything you have said... with the exception of the Bunker elementalist... only because I have no clue what the hell that means? What dat mean?

 

You spoke earlier of players saying.. Look mom, I'm leet... or something like that... Is this your way of doing the same thing?

 Exactly!

People who think GW2 is a zerg fest never LEARNED HOW TO PLAY THE GAME. It went way over your head...you are too used to facerolling in trinity based games...the very idea of having one character that has 4 sometings VERY different skills sets that can be swapped out in a moments notice was TOO HARD FOR YOU...so you zerged.

Go look up bunker elementalist guide on youtube, enjoy seeing how much you didnt know about the game.

My guild can run most dungeons without having a single death, continualy have HoTs, AHoTs, CCs, Buffs, Debuffs up just because we took the TIME TO LEARN our own classes cooldowns as well as those of the other classes so we know when to pop our own skills.

Once the PvP contests start youll see those that learned the game steamrolling those that think there is nothing to the game.

“I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson

  Tithenon

Novice Member

Joined: 1/31/11
Posts: 106

2/19/13 9:58:48 AM#69

Game designers need to start developing the opposition in their games more intelligently.  Not everything in a game needs to be based around how many "mobs" (shudder) you can drop; these are not MMORPGs -not even my beloved Lord of the Rings Online-, they are MMO Combat Games.

 

Should there be a massive fight?  Yes.  But it should come after trials and travails played through the game, and these travails should not be based on 5 groups of fairly tough bad guys stuffed into a room that really should only have group of bad guys your characters really have to fight hard to get through.  In this way, your group can maneuver, get into good locations, use the space designed and, at the end of the fight, understand they've been in a fight.  This is as opposed to getting into a fight with one group, putting one step into the aggro threshold, and then suddenly you're fighting two groups.  LotRO took care of some of this, but it's still not all that easy to get away from death in packed areas, such as the Worms in the North Downs.

 

The problem is that there should be NO need for the "holy trinity" at all!  I should be able to make a Thief and be relevant to a group, for solving puzzles, for opening locks, for increasing loot chances and rarity of loot.  I should be able to make a Bard or Troubadour, buff the party against damage, help to guide them with my knowledge, and give them insight into the creatures they're facing, and be relevant to the group.  This mistaken notion that there HAS to be a Tank, a DPS, and a Healer -and that's how they're referred to, rather than in role-playing terms as the Fighter, the Ranger, and a Cleric-, which reference is derogatory to someone like me, who's been playing role-playing games since 1983, needs to be disbursed.  We need to get tabletop role-players in there to design the terminology, the encounters, the adventures, and everything else, rather than these console gamers who've been developing our MMORPGs.

 

In conclusion, I look forward to a day when I no longer hear the terms Tank, Healer, and DPS.  Good day.

  loulaki

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/20/11
Posts: 811

2/19/13 11:47:44 AM#70

i wanted to answer but the guy above just spoke for me ...

 

those who defend the holy trinity reminds me those who were defending that the earth is flat and that the king is speaking in the name of God ...

  PeZzy

Novice Member

Joined: 3/08/04
Posts: 130

2/19/13 11:54:42 AM#71

The BIG problem with GW2 is the lack of roleplaying in an MMORPG game. The trinity means you can go into an instance or hang with a small group and play a role. While it is harder to set up groups that have players with specific skills, it is very fun to know that your skills will be called upon and you are a valued member of a group.

Unfortuately the games that have holy trinities and additional subdivisions have UI's that are filled with rows upon rows of buttons. GW2 has the best action system of any MMORPG. The reason why I like Mesmer is the roles you play (portal, mass invisibility). Unfortunately the other classes are mostly hack and slash: you can change the way a character's attacks are animated - add flames or undead arms - but in the end it doesn't add much to the game.

 
  Thorbrand

Novice Member

Joined: 3/06/04
Posts: 1217

2/19/13 11:58:30 AM#72
Trinity doesn't need to be fixed never needed to be fixed, brings more tactical advanced gameplay to MMOs and has been around since D&D 1st edition. If it ain't broke don't fix it unless you are going to make it better. FYI...GW2 sure didn't make anything better!
  Amsai

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/16/11
Posts: 69

2/19/13 12:05:34 PM#73

@ jtcgs - Its not dependency. Its INTERDEPENDENCY! Big difference, because one implies riding the coat tails of others. the other implies working together as a organized, structured, and cohesive unit. Not too mention you get the whole class pride feel. With GW2 I felt as I had no identity

I say the trinity vs non-trinity folks just agree to disagree. You will never convince me that a non-tiity system is a good thing, even if you have 100% successful GW2 dungeon runs. I persoannly didnt like them , and they felt zergy and it did have an every man for themselves feel. BUT I too have seen the youtube vids of people doing spectacular jobs in the dungeons. But to say its easy-mode to use trinity is ridiculous. It very much depends on the game. Some are easy, some not so much. And even that is opinion. For instance I think Tera raids are easy, and I found FFXIVs to be prety challenging (Garuda anyone?) But they are both trinity.

 

There is no reason we cant have developers make both, just like we have devs making both action and traditional MMOs.

Anyways, my prefered system would be a totally classless system, that focusses on roles (trinity + CC and buff/debuff). And these roles would be crucial, as in @ endgame you will struggle or fail if you dont have the right roles. But seeing as its a classless system, anyone could learn the skills to take on any role. And youd spec yourself accordingly.

 

Back up idea is something along the lines of FFXI/FFXIV but with a heavier focus on hybrid classes that are awesome at BOTH their roles and needed. That way you could trade out if you wante to but if you like a class you can stick with it.

(example: CC as tanking - in other words a plate mail defensive fighter with damage mitigating abilities and powerful CC abilities that double as threat generators. That way if there are too many "tanks" the ones not tanking can focus on CC and will be nice to have in case tank goes down.)

  BadSpock

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/21/04
Posts: 7750

Logic be damned!

2/19/13 12:20:53 PM#74

I always thought it'd be a good idea to create a Holy Trinity MMO where the three legs of the group dynamic tripod were - Tank/Heal/Control and all 3 did the same amount of damage (as in all three were equally responsible for making the HP bars of the other guy(s) go down.)

Balancing for PvP would be hard though.

Tank - Limited self buffs, resistant to damage/avoidance of damage, limited enemy debuff application

Heal - Group buffs, heal damage, friendly debuff removal

Control - Enemy debuff application, control damage via CC, enemy buff removal

So tanks do good damage, have limited self buffs and limited debuffs they place on enemies (mostly to reduce damage output) and are by far the best soakers/avoidance with the unique mechanic of Threat.

Healers do good damage, have the most powerful group-wide buffs and can remove debuffs from others and self, and have the unique mechanic of Healing themselves/others.

Control do good damage, have the most powerful and widest variety of debuffs to apply to enemies, as well as ability to remove buffs from enemies, and have the unique mechanics of Control - all forms of Crowd Control like stuns/sleeps/interupts etc.

It would have to play out in an Opportunity Cost system.

All players can deal balanced level of damage to the enemy, but the opportunity cost for using a damage skill or combo/rotation is that during that time frame you aren't controlling/defending/healing.

It also solves the problem of some roles being better at others for leveling/soloing AND it solves the problem of having too many tanks or healers or whatever for a particular fight.

That player would just focus on the damage part of their class instead of using the specific skillset unique to their chosen mechanic (Threat/Heal/Control).

For PvP, Tanks would be difficult to kill due to being sturdy and having limited means to provide themselves buffs and debuff their opponents, but they can't heal and are very limited in their tactical control.

For Healers, they are always a threat as they can negate offensive actions against others via healing and provide good buffs and debuff cleansing, but lack the sturdiness to take damage as Tanks or the ability to control the situation.

Control can literally change the course of battle from moment to moment with their powerful debuffs and crows controls as well as removing powerful buffs from enemies, but lack the defensive options of Tanks and the ability to heal damage dealt to them so they have to play more tactically.

As with any Trinity system, I think it is completely ruined by Hybrids.

Hybrids also make balance an impossible task.

Now Playing: Destiny, WoW

  Aeonblades

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/12/12
Posts: 2123

2/19/13 12:24:21 PM#75
Originally posted by BadSpock

I always thought it'd be a good idea to create a Holy Trinity MMO where the three legs of the group dynamic tripod were - Tank/Heal/Control and all 3 did the same amount of damage (as in all three were equally responsible for making the HP bars of the other guy(s) go down.)

Balancing for PvP would be hard though.

Tank - Limited self buffs, resistant to damage/avoidance of damage, limited enemy debuff application

Heal - Group buffs, heal damage, friendly debuff removal

Control - Enemy debuff application, control damage via CC, enemy buff removal

So tanks do good damage, have limited self buffs and limited debuffs they place on enemies (mostly to reduce damage output) and are by far the best soakers/avoidance with the unique mechanic of Threat.

Healers do good damage, have the most powerful group-wide buffs and can remove debuffs from others and self, and have the unique mechanic of Healing themselves/others.

Control do good damage, have the most powerful and widest variety of debuffs to apply to enemies, as well as ability to remove buffs from enemies, and have the unique mechanics of Control - all forms of Crowd Control like stuns/sleeps/interupts etc.

It would have to play out in an Opportunity Cost system.

All players can deal balanced level of damage to the enemy, but the opportunity cost for using a damage skill or combo/rotation is that during that time frame you aren't controlling/defending/healing.

It also solves the problem of some roles being better at others for leveling/soloing AND it solves the problem of having too many tanks or healers or whatever for a particular fight.

That player would just focus on the damage part of their class instead of using the specific skillset unique to their chosen mechanic (Threat/Heal/Control).

For PvP, Tanks would be difficult to kill due to being sturdy and having limited means to provide themselves buffs and debuff their opponents, but they can't heal and are very limited in their tactical control.

For Healers, they are always a threat as they can negate offensive actions against others via healing and provide good buffs and debuff cleansing, but lack the sturdiness to take damage as Tanks or the ability to control the situation.

Control can literally change the course of battle from moment to moment with their powerful debuffs and crows controls as well as removing powerful buffs from enemies, but lack the defensive options of Tanks and the ability to heal damage dealt to them so they have to play more tactically.

As with any Trinity system, I think it is completely ruined by Hybrids.

Hybrids also make balance an impossible task.

I like the idea of tanks/heals/control with all equal DPS. Would really negate the 90% of a game playing DPS like happens now.

Currently Playing: ESO and FFXIV
Have played: You name it
If you mention rose tinted glasses, you better be referring to Mitch Hedberg.

  Torvaldr

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/09
Posts: 5932

2/19/13 12:28:18 PM#76
The only real problem with the trinity is tank and artificial aggro mechanics.  It makes combat simple and stupid and totally trivializes group content which further negates the idea that group content is somehow the holy grail of progression and rewards.  Games that go this route will end up in the same place at "end game".

Curse you AquaScum!

  BadSpock

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/21/04
Posts: 7750

Logic be damned!

2/19/13 12:36:02 PM#77
Originally posted by Torvaldr
The only real problem with the trinity is tank and artificial aggro mechanics.  It makes combat simple and stupid and totally trivializes group content which further negates the idea that group content is somehow the holy grail of progression and rewards.  Games that go this route will end up in the same place at "end game".

Well you can mostly solve artificial aggro mechanics with solid collision detection and LoS restrictions, but you take away a LOT of the wiggle room encounter designers get to invent new gameplay mechanics to make your fights interesting.

So in a lot of ways, getting rid of the idea of threat/aggro will lead to simple and stupid trivialized group combat.

Now Playing: Destiny, WoW

  BadSpock

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/21/04
Posts: 7750

Logic be damned!

2/19/13 12:38:22 PM#78
Originally posted by Aeonblades
Originally posted by BadSpock

I always thought it'd be a good idea to create a Holy Trinity MMO where the three legs of the group dynamic tripod were - Tank/Heal/Control and all 3 did the same amount of damage (as in all three were equally responsible for making the HP bars of the other guy(s) go down.)

I like the idea of tanks/heals/control with all equal DPS. Would really negate the 90% of a game playing DPS like happens now.

Well it would bring up the point of - "Well we know you can do damage, what ELSE can you bring to the group?"

Playing the Opportunity Cost mechanics would be great - finding balance between your specific role in a group and making the enemy dead before you are overwhelmed or out of resources etc.

Now Playing: Destiny, WoW

  thark

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/01/03
Posts: 1107

2/19/13 12:46:27 PM#79
Originally posted by jtcgs
Originally posted by Praetalus
Originally posted by jtcgs
Originally posted by Vesavius

Bill is right here though... in these games class dependence is bad, but role dependence is good.

 Dependence is Dependence and there is nothing good about it. small defined roles were created so bad players can be good, it was meant to expand the games to a larger audience.

A good player can play any way he is allowed and they sure as hell dont need a role that has you sitting there pressing a few buttons to play his small "role" in a group...its the very reason why so many people hate GW2, they cant wrap their heads around being able to DPS, Tank, Heal, CC, Buff and Debuff all with the same character and do it all in the same battle. Its just too much for them because they cant break the limits placed on them by the trinity.

Bunker elementalist forever!

 

I do not agree with anything you have said... with the exception of the Bunker elementalist... only because I have no clue what the hell that means? What dat mean?

 

You spoke earlier of players saying.. Look mom, I'm leet... or something like that... Is this your way of doing the same thing?

 Exactly!

People who think GW2 is a zerg fest never LEARNED HOW TO PLAY THE GAME. It went way over your head...you are too used to facerolling in trinity based games...the very idea of having one character that has 4 sometings VERY different skills sets that can be swapped out in a moments notice was TOO HARD FOR YOU...so you zerged.

Go look up bunker elementalist guide on youtube, enjoy seeing how much you didnt know about the game.

My guild can run most dungeons without having a single death, continualy have HoTs, AHoTs, CCs, Buffs, Debuffs up just because we took the TIME TO LEARN our own classes cooldowns as well as those of the other classes so we know when to pop our own skills.

Once the PvP contests start youll see those that learned the game steamrolling those that think there is nothing to the game.

 What I think you really are trying to say Is this..

YOU  learned how to ADOPT to a system that was BY DESIGN made to play easy solo(verstility in classes) , you did it, and sure I'm impressed..Very good :)

They made the game , and designed it around the dynamic events and the outdoor content, wich works great..But the dungeons, im not sure they thought this trough at all..Group content without any sort of direction or hints to what to do, doesnt sound as if they would do such a thing ..

My conclusion is that they didnt, or they did , but they didnt have the time to fix this problem, so they hoped that the community eventually could come up with a solution, apparently some of you has done just that, but it's evedently a very small minority of GW2 players that has done so.

But  can you really say "learn how to play the game" in this debacle ?

I don't think so, because I dont think even the developers where aware of your tactics when they designed the game. 

Lets just have a look at  the made up term .."bunker elementalist" There is no such class in this game, because this is a term invented by the community..The Elementalist class is described by the developers as a high damage  class as follows.

"Elementalists are multi-faceted spellcasters that channel elemental forces, making fire, air, earth, and water do their bidding. What they lack in physical toughness, they make up in versatility and the ability to inflict massive damage in a single attack."

This is the official description of the Elementalist, sure It also hints that it's a "versatile" class, mening you can do "other things" but damage, and yes the fan made term "Bunker Elementalist" is created.

This is no diffrent then when "other classes" not by design made for tanking in  other games tanks..A good example would be "assasins and scout" classes from EQ or EQ2, in some cases succesful due to extreme patience and internet builds just like your "bunker elementalist" It's the same thing, really, just that in those games there are classes dedicated for it, thats the only diffrence.

So...Can you REALLY say "learn how to play the game" on terms you created or the community created in answer to a flawed dungeon concept,  since none of the actual classes has any really defined roles , atleast not as far as the classic concept goes..

 

  ErifNevow

Novice Member

Joined: 6/05/11
Posts: 97

More of an idea guy...

2/19/13 12:56:46 PM#80
As someone who plays DnD, I hate the trinity. I have seen rouges tank, Paladins DPS, And wizards heal. In fact, I've only never seen a rouge or fighter heal. Everything else is pretty much possible if you play right. So I would like to be able to do that. GW2 was great, but I'm not very into it right now. Maybe later. PoE is also very good at this.

Newb= Newly Enrolled Wannabe Badass.

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