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Camelot Unchained

Camelot Unchained 

General Discussion  » Gear in CU, and importance of and common myths (weight of weapons, viablity of armor, etc).

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28 posts found
  Metanol

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/20/05
Posts: 247

2/18/13 4:47:41 PM#21
Originally posted by Angier2758

 I watched a documentary where they proved the longbow could punch through, but found out it was in part due to the strength of the guy using the bow and not only the bow itself (might have been the same documentary?).  The british longbow is not a normal bow either.  They also showed how a crossbow bolt could go punch through plate armor; which sort of made plate armor a death trap.

Also.... what was said about plate armor wearers wrestling each other to the ground.... that did not happen LOL.... they could barely walk in plate armor let alone fight in it... once a guy was brought off his horse in his plate armor he was done for.

He wasn't a walking fortress by any means.  The reason the poleaxe was deadly was similar to the reason why crossbows were deadly to plate wearers.... a lot of force on a tiny point could punch through the armor....

First of all, lets talk about armor penetration. Steel bolts and all sorts of arrows were indeed used to penetrate plate armour, but there were more than a few factors to take in here. Also, the "age" at what the plate armor was used is a huge factor to this. Early plate armor (Coat of Plates), starting from 13th century did not actually stop most projectiles, but the further the time went, the better the armors became. It was not always about -thickness- of armor, but the curves mattered too.

These two must always be taken into calculation when talking about armor penetration.

1st. The angle of the projectile hitting the armor combined with armor thickness.

2nd. The velocity of the projectile.

Now, lets not talk in detail about the first one, since it should be logical, if you understand even WW 2 armored warfare.

However, the second point is kind of interesting. Now, an english longbow was of course a unique weapon, and it did kill an unbelievable amount of French knights during the hundred years war, but it would not have fared against 15th or 16th century plate armour. Crossbows however, were quite different. Light and hunting crossbows could not penetrate most plates of any century, but a late 12th century Arbalest provided enough force to penetrate even the heaviest armours for.. well, god knows for how long? And then crossbows evolved, with different mechanisms coming to use and allowing them to be reloaded both faster and more easily than arbalests, which could only fire two bolts in a minute.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossbow#Medieval_Europe

 

The "romanticed" view of Plate armour is often the 15th to 16th century "heaviest" ones, which were full plates (full suits, logical), or then the separate tournament armors, which indeed were heavy and restricted mobility - they were not meant for combat, only to make you a tank and possibly survive a tourney lance, were you to take it in your chest. Now, with tourney armor I understand that you could not possibly get up from the ground, but real plate armour, for combat? Do some more studying, please.

Actual plate armour worn for combat did not prevent you from participating freely in combat. It was of course heavy (with the weight divided neatly all over you) and all troops who had such armour were trained to fight in it. Brawling did happen, but much more efficient way of killing would've been a poleaxe, a halberd or a hammer/maul. Swords in europe were often forged to be able to thrust into weaker points, but just hacking away would've done it too, since the blade was forged just for that (heavy and tough enough) and enough blunt trauma puts anything down.

"Instead of cutting, long swords were then used more to thrust against opponents in plate armour, requiring a more acute point and a more rigid blade."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longsword#Blade_profile

I suggest watching ten more documentaries and reading through all the information you can.

We´re all dead, just say it.

  Stiler

Novice Member

Joined: 10/19/05
Posts: 599

 
OP  2/18/13 4:48:33 PM#22
Originally posted by Angier2758
 

 I watched a documentary where they proved the longbow could punch through, but found out it was in part due to the strength of the guy using the bow and not only the bow itself (might have been the same documentary?).  The british longbow is not a normal bow either.  They also showed how a crossbow bolt could go punch through plate armor; which sort of made plate armor a death trap.

Also.... what was said about plate armor wearers wrestling each other to the ground.... that did not happen LOL.... they could barely walk in plate armor let alone fight in it... once a guy was brought off his horse in his plate armor he was done for.

He wasn't a walking fortress by any means.  The reason the poleaxe was deadly was similar to the reason why crossbows were deadly to plate wearers.... a lot of force on a tiny point could punch through the armor....

Not true at all.

Plate armour was considered the "best" armourr for a reason, and there's a reason it was so damn expensive too.

Plate was pretty much impervious to arrows, and smaller arms/slashing, that is why it was so valued on the battlefield and used.

Plate armour was generally curved to some degree, and it was thicker at parts likely to be hit (chest/helmet) and weaker at area's such as the joints which were thinner plate/open. 

Arrows could generally penetrate only at close distances, to the point that if you were an archer firing at someone that close, you should be running away.

Arrows that did penetrate armour, were usually done so by hitting these "weak" points of the armour, the joints, and the visor slit in helmets They did not generally penetrate plate armour otherwise, that is one of the main advantages to wearing plate armour. I'm not saying arrows NEVER pentrated armour, just not as easily or as "common" as most people think. Plate Armour (a good suit) was generally going to stop most any arrows from penetrating unless you were very very close to the archer firing it .

Bodkin arrows, which is a common name thrown around for people who say plate was pierced by longbows/arrows, were made more for shooting vs light armour/mail, not against plate armour, getting in-between the rivets and such, it was not made to penetrate plate armour nor did it usually.

See:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3997HZuWjk

A lot of modern "tests" you will find, they either have the wrong quality arrows, wrong quality plate armour (or evne just a crappy "flat" sheet of steel, which is not comparable to curved plate) and the yoften ignore the undergarments worn with padding that you would generally wear under the plate.

As far as the "weight" you are wrong on that as well. Plate armour was not that heavy, people could run in it if they wanted, mount their own horse, etc. It did not make them a "slow" walking tank. I mean think logically here, if plate armour was THAT heavy what would be the point? It just would not be feasible to fight in.

As far as "wrestling" goes, actualy they did. This is a type of combat that Hollywood movies generally ignore/are very ignorant about.

They used things such as "half" swording (whereby you'd use the sword more of a spear then a normal sword stance) and a LOT of combat was focused on tripping, throwing, etc and basically getting people on the ground so you could stab them in the weak points of armour.

See:

http://www.thearma.org/essays/armoredlongsword.html

Do not get your history from movies.

 

 

  Metanol

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/20/05
Posts: 247

2/18/13 4:51:35 PM#23
Originally posted by Stiler

As far as the "weight" you are wrong on that as well. Plate armour was not that heavy, people could run in it if they wanted, mount their own horse, etc. It did not make them a "slow" walking tank. I mean think logically here, if plate armour was THAT heavy what would be the point? It just would not be feasible to fight in.

As far as "wrestling" goes, actualy they did. This is a type of combat that Hollywood movies generally ignore/are very ignorant about.

They used things such as "half" swording (whereby you'd use the sword more of a spear then a normal sword stance) and a LOT of combat was focused on tripping, throwing, etc and basically getting people on the ground so you could stab them in the weak points of armour.

See:

http://www.thearma.org/essays/armoredlongsword.html

Do not get your history from movies.

 

 

Amen.

We´re all dead, just say it.

  Angier2758

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/05/09
Posts: 1061

2/18/13 4:57:07 PM#24
It really was not feasible to fight in. Get it? Don't get your history from video games.
  Angier2758

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/05/09
Posts: 1061

2/18/13 4:58:12 PM#25
PS- crossbows ended plate armor as a real use on the battlefield.
  Stiler

Novice Member

Joined: 10/19/05
Posts: 599

 
OP  2/18/13 5:06:49 PM#26
Originally posted by Angier2758
It really was not feasible to fight in. Get it? Don't get your history from video games.

Are you trolling or what? Post sources, becaues by all account sif it wasn't "feasible" to fight in........they wouldn't have, but they did.

I get my information from historical documents, tests, and which I've linked to, you can look at real historical fighting manauals made back in those days and SEE these techniques that they trained in.

 

Crossbows did not "end" plate armour, just as longbows didn't (hell even chainmail could stop some arrows, broadheads, etc). Crossbows were easier for common people to use then longbows, but they weren't m agical bows that penetrated plate armour with ease or something.

Firearms is what sent plate armour on it's way out, not crossbows. Actually not even the early firearms did this , as Plate armour existed on the battlefields and was used a couple hundred years after the early firearms, until firearms become more evolved and eventually plate went out of favor and usefullness vs them.

 

  tlear

Novice Member

Joined: 12/15/07
Posts: 143

2/18/13 5:18:13 PM#27
I am actually correct, longbow, composite bow or crossbow can not punch through plate. Late period plate chest plates can withstand musket balls but they are damn heavy.

It is all matter of quality of metal arrowheads were made from iron while plate was normally a high(for the time ) grade steel. Take iron nail and try to punch a hole in steel plate see what happens

If CU is set in early dark ages then there is no plate and it is not an issue. Chain protects well against most things but it is not nearly as inpenetrateable.
  Metanol

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/20/05
Posts: 247

2/18/13 6:23:12 PM#28
Originally posted by Angier2758
PS- crossbows ended plate armor as a real use on the battlefield.

Actually, they did not... But advanced formations of crossbows and pikemen did end mounted knight charges head-on.

Please provide some feasible argument here. Why would people, especially knights have worn plate armour if it was not feasible to fight in? What century are we talking about? What design? There are so many variations and so many scenarios and weapons to draw upon.

 

I personally am a fan of "ages where full plate was not invented". Brytenwalda! Englaland! Saxons, Frisians, Britons, Picts.. And of course The Viking Age.

More info concerning penetration:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_longbow#Range_and_penetration

 

PS.

Originally posted by Angier2758

Plate armor was *done* as soon as crossbows came about.  Why might you ask?  Crossbows actually punched threw plate armor.

Oh god, just reading this now got me laughing. Crossbows were around -before- plate armour, or at least, what you -consider- plate armour.

Originally posted by Stiler

Yea, I am one for more realistically designed armours.

 ......

I think this could be an aamazing part of crafting, if crafters were able to visually design both weapons and armor, from vairous "layers" where they can select different base models and pieces of an armor, then the colour of ht ebase armor, then paintings on the armour, and then etching/gilding, etc Bascially it's all layered one over th eother so you can create some truly unique armor different from others, even develop their own "style" of armor that sets them apart from other crafters visually.

I missed this post from the OP, but that's truely beautiful! Indeed, the idea of giving crafters such freedom while keeping armours realistic would be something unheard of, and yet it would be -incredibly- wonderful! I fully approve! Only game what lets you do that is some mods for NwN, but even there you are restricted to some premade pieces which don't fulfill your every need.

We´re all dead, just say it.

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