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Camelot Unchained

Camelot Unchained 

General Discussion  » Why in my opinion people should fund the project

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63 posts found
  Smorak

Novice Member

Joined: 2/01/07
Posts: 62

What man is a man that does not make the world better?

2/17/13 10:41:21 PM#41
Originally posted by Father_Jack
Personally I don't like PvE I never have, all I want to do is RvR/PvP. A game where I don't have to PvE to grind gear for RvR is perfect for me. Why do you care how other people want to play? Why does it make you so angry, you just come off bitter.

LOL no one really likes PVE.  And where have I mentioned that care about your opinion?  I'm simply stating facts.  If you eliminate the PVE, the game is no longer a MMO its a MOBA.  And there are plenty of MOBA's out there right now that F2P.  So asking for subs for another one will be ridiculous.  In addition, EA has a Warhammer 3 realm MOBA already in place.  Is this game going to surpass simply because "Camelot" is in the title?

  Tadder

Novice Member

Joined: 2/16/13
Posts: 38

2/17/13 11:04:58 PM#42
Originally posted by Smorak
Originally posted by Anthur
I agree that new ideas should be supported. But where is the innvoation in making a DAoC2 without PvE ?

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Some of the best words I've read on these forums to date.

 

The fact is, there is absolutely no innovation mentioned about this game at all.  It's a clone.  And instead of /20, there will be /maxlevel.  BOOM!  POW!  You can RVR day 1.  The whole idea of removing PVE is simply stupid.  PVE is where people meet.  PVE is where people have silly conversations while grinding.  PVE is where guilds are created, social networks are established, crafter get their clients, and where realms are brought together.

RVR is definitely the fun side.  But it is also the dark side.  RVR is where elitism was created.  RVR is where 3rd party programs were used to get ahead (RADAR!).  RVR is where people would join someone's vent server to complain about another guild adding on their fight and they win.  RVR is where alliances are broken not made.   RVR is where people spam LFG for hours, get ganked 1v8, lose stick from the zerg and struggle to catch up, are the first to die and last to get rezzed, don't use main assists, break CC, stealth zerg, and hump portal keeps.

A solid RVR game needs PVE for balance.

That's a complete utopian view of what PvE is in MMOs. People meet in PvP just like they meet in PvE. If you need a group for it, you meet people. The fact that you are fighting AIs or other players doesn't matter. PvE is not this holy grail of MMOs. If you like PvE then yea you'll find your guild there. If you PvP all day, you'll find your friends in a battleground. It's not like PvPers wander around without guilds or companions because they don't PvE.

And the RvR creating elitism? What's the number of elite PvE guilds vs. PvP guilds? Google Death and Taxes or any other elite and standoffish guild. Any guild that is half-proficient in raids will have rules that could easily be consider elitist; 1) You need Gear 2) You have to show up reguarly 3) Know the encounters, etc etc. Activities that require time and can exclude others. A good pvp group will have the same. Look at DKP. It's a PvE system created to benefit those who put in the most time, skill, etc over casuals. Elitist?

Did someone corpse camp you or something when you were a child?

  Betakodo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/16/12
Posts: 339

2/17/13 11:12:08 PM#43

So, what's the potential profit? What's the risk? Where are my company reports and project outline? What about the estimated release date? Someone call my secretary.

Can I see your past work portfolio Mr. Jacobs? Oh, wow. I see you were lead designer and CEO of Mythic for Dark ages of Camelot. Very good. Whoa... Whoa, wait a second here. You were responsible for Warhammer online?!

I see. We'll call you about our potential investment. Don't call us.

  strangiato2112

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 9/21/12
Posts: 1566

2/17/13 11:56:33 PM#44
Originally posted by Normandy7
For me this is about trying to make a difference. No more will I toss money at overhyped big publisher mmos. The majority has been pretty much fail and quite honestly I would rather roll the dice and give an inde dev a shot. Things have to change in the mmo world and here is an opportunity to make things happen the right way.

Ah, the naive thought of thinking kickstarter will change the industry. There will always be big budgets that get it right, big budgets that fail, indies that get it right, indies that fail.  No gaurantee you will like CU if it gets made.  Translating paper to game can fail just as easily, in fact even more easily, for a small budget game.

Yes, you have the uninspired games like SWTOR and Rift sticking too closely to WoW. But you also have GW2 and TSW whch do anything but try to be WoW.  There is very lttle wrong with either TSW or GW2, they both got it right by trying to create something new from the ground up.  You dont like either?  Thats not the developer's fault.  The "change" has already happened.  Sure, some will still try to chase WoW but studios have been trying to break the mold.  Look at the two major and the two minor releases from last year.  A game without holy trinity and devalued gear progression, a game that was neither fantasy nor sci fi and didnt have traditional levels, a game with a more action oriented combat system, and a MMOFPS.  Four games and only one was WoW-like, and that game had a very un-WoW combat system.

And the game that was WoW-like?  Wasnt the game from Funcom, NCSoft, or SoE.  Nope, it was the one of the four from an inde dev.

 

  Smorak

Novice Member

Joined: 2/01/07
Posts: 62

What man is a man that does not make the world better?

2/18/13 12:17:23 AM#45
Originally posted by Tadder

That's a complete utopian view of what PvE is in MMOs. People meet in PvP just like they meet in PvE. If you need a group for it, you meet people. The fact that you are fighting AIs or other players doesn't matter. PvE is not this holy grail of MMOs. If you like PvE then yea you'll find your guild there. If you PvP all day, you'll find your friends in a battleground. It's not like PvPers wander around without guilds or companions because they don't PvE.

And the RvR creating elitism? What's the number of elite PvE guilds vs. PvP guilds? Google Death and Taxes or any other elite and standoffish guild. Any guild that is half-proficient in raids will have rules that could easily be consider elitist; 1) You need Gear 2) You have to show up reguarly 3) Know the encounters, etc etc. Activities that require time and can exclude others. A good pvp group will have the same. Look at DKP. It's a PvE system created to benefit those who put in the most time, skill, etc over casuals. Elitist?

Did someone corpse camp you or something when you were a child?

Obviously, you didn't play DAoC at all.  Examples:   your elite guild mentions are from WoW,  "corpse camp" I can only assume that is also from WoW, and I never even heard of DKP until after I left the DAoC scene.  Probably because you didn't have guilds with 200 members fighting over gear.

So let's step away from your experiences in other games that aren't applicable.  OK?  In DAoC (and most games tbh), PVE is where people met when they began the game.  For example,  in midgard, Vendo Caverns was a staple.  Everyone went there at some point.  Before the bot craze, you typically needed help.  You could spend 1-10 hours with a few people just grinding away levels.  It was tedious to earn the xp but you were with other peole.  You could "lol" in chat and share experiences.  THAT's what builds friendships in games, shared experiences... common bonds.

My friend, in WoW you didn't experience the 8 man guilds that logged on at the same time, spoke to no one, shared no intelligence, and wouldn't dare help fellow realmmates or defend anything.

  replicant

Novice Member

Joined: 2/20/04
Posts: 46

"Be resolute, fear no sacrifice and surmount every
difficulty to win victory." - Mao

2/18/13 5:03:45 AM#46

I am assisting in the funding of the game because I enjoyed the past work of Mark, feel this game brings to me something I have been wanting for awhile now, and the idea of backing such a niche project appeals to me.

However, I do want to go on record that I don't feel the High Fantasy genre makes the game easier to produce over a Sci-Fi (or other setting) setting in the suspension of disbelief category. Personally, I would have backed this even more if it had been given a Cyberpunk style setting (or Shadowrun style setting if you really need your High Fantasy as well.) as the war of the Corporations, Anarchs, Governments, etc would have been more unique and intriguing. Having the RvR, Crafting, Housing, etc explained via your story to me isn't a hard job if your writer is talented enough no matter the setting. I will still play the game and have fun otherwise though as a Viking! :-p

Bear "replicant" Powell
"I am Shaolin-Style!"

  meddyck

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/18/08
Posts: 1132

2/18/13 5:32:11 AM#47
Originally posted by Smorak

LOL no one really likes PVE.  And where have I mentioned that care about your opinion?  I'm simply stating facts.  If you eliminate the PVE, the game is no longer a MMO its a MOBA.  And there are plenty of MOBA's out there right now that F2P.  So asking for subs for another one will be ridiculous.  In addition, EA has a Warhammer 3 realm MOBA already in place.  Is this game going to surpass simply because "Camelot" is in the title?

Do you even know what the A in MOBA stands for? Let me help you: arena. There isn't anything about CU that is comparable to a MOBA's instanced arenas. The world will be non-instanced and persistent just like DAOC's and WAR's frontiers. I'm baffled why people keep trying to call CU a MOBA just because you don't have to kill 1,000,000 NPCs to level to 50 before you go RvR.

Camelot Unchained Founder
DAOC [retired]: R11 Cleric R11 Druid R11 Minstrel R9 Eldritch R6 Sorc R6 Scout R5 Healer

  Tadder

Novice Member

Joined: 2/16/13
Posts: 38

2/18/13 7:57:50 AM#48
Originally posted by Smorak
Originally posted by Tadder

That's a complete utopian view of what PvE is in MMOs. People meet in PvP just like they meet in PvE. If you need a group for it, you meet people. The fact that you are fighting AIs or other players doesn't matter. PvE is not this holy grail of MMOs. If you like PvE then yea you'll find your guild there. If you PvP all day, you'll find your friends in a battleground. It's not like PvPers wander around without guilds or companions because they don't PvE.

And the RvR creating elitism? What's the number of elite PvE guilds vs. PvP guilds? Google Death and Taxes or any other elite and standoffish guild. Any guild that is half-proficient in raids will have rules that could easily be consider elitist; 1) You need Gear 2) You have to show up reguarly 3) Know the encounters, etc etc. Activities that require time and can exclude others. A good pvp group will have the same. Look at DKP. It's a PvE system created to benefit those who put in the most time, skill, etc over casuals. Elitist?

Did someone corpse camp you or something when you were a child?

Obviously, you didn't play DAoC at all.  Examples:   your elite guild mentions are from WoW,  "corpse camp" I can only assume that is also from WoW, and I never even heard of DKP until after I left the DAoC scene.  Probably because you didn't have guilds with 200 members fighting over gear.

So let's step away from your experiences in other games that aren't applicable.  OK?  In DAoC (and most games tbh), PVE is where people met when they began the game.  For example,  in midgard, Vendo Caverns was a staple.  Everyone went there at some point.  Before the bot craze, you typically needed help.  You could spend 1-10 hours with a few people just grinding away levels.  It was tedious to earn the xp but you were with other peole.  You could "lol" in chat and share experiences.  THAT's what builds friendships in games, shared experiences... common bonds.

My friend, in WoW you didn't experience the 8 man guilds that logged on at the same time, spoke to no one, shared no intelligence, and wouldn't dare help fellow realmmates or defend anything.

Well for starters, DKP was developed during EQ (2 years before DAoC?) and i believe and I first saw Corpse camping in SWG.  We actually used to randsom Jedis while they were incapacitaed. There were 'elite' guilds in EQ, but I'll admit my first experience in one was with WoW, and there it was the same thing. People logged on at 7:55, raided for 5 hours, logged off. Same thing in Rift. I wouldn't write off the last 10 years of MMOs as irrelavent, as they are proving that your thesis of "PvE is good, PvP is bad for friends" is unsupported besides perhaps a single annecdote.

My point is that there is nothing intrinsically special about PvE vs. PvP for developing groups and relationships in an MMO. It's more about how the developers design the system. If the Devs make it so everyone needs to gang up and defeat a PvE dungeon, while 8 guys can roam RvR by themselves without an incentive to group, then yea that may happen. But if the Devs make (like I hope CU will be) a system where large PvP groups are rewarded for getting together and melting faces and working together then the I don't see how that isn't social. What builds comradery is working or struggling for a common goal, and it doesn't matter if that common goal is leveling up in a dungeon or destroying a player held tower.

  Caldrin

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/02/04
Posts: 4114

2/18/13 8:01:17 AM#49

I will be supporting this myself, i really like what the guy is saying.. every blog he posts up seems to hit the nail on the head for me..

 

Just like he says  this game will not be foreveryone... some people hate PVP and you know what thats fine this game just wont be for them.. just like WOW, GW2, Rifts or whatever are not for me.

 

Plus the MMO industry needs some new blood pumped into it.

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  Eaderbreca

MMORPG.com Streamer

Joined: 4/04/12
Posts: 44

2/18/13 9:50:21 AM#50
Originally posted by Caldrin

I will be supporting this myself, i really like what the guy is saying.. every blog he posts up seems to hit the nail on the head for me..

 

Just like he says  this game will not be foreveryone... some people hate PVP and you know what thats fine this game just wont be for them.. just like WOW, GW2, Rifts or whatever are not for me.

 

Plus the MMO industry needs some new blood pumped into it.

No pain no gain after all :) If we don't support it'll never see the light.

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  Vorthanion

Elite Member

Joined: 7/02/11
Posts: 1910

2/18/13 9:56:03 AM#51

I'm interested to see if such a niche game can meet its benchmark on funding.  Even if it just barely scrapes by, that does not bode well for its ability to make money.  I think the fund drive needs to be a huge success to prove once and for all that even a severley niche game can make a decent profit.  Maybe then, other developers will step forward with their niche ideas and start moving the genre forward.

 

I won't be helping as PvP is not my niche, but I have my fingers crossed for you guys so that it may lead to my niche being brought forward in the future (PVE only, casual, sandpark, no raids, huge virtual world for exploration).

  gaeanprayer

Novice Member

Joined: 8/06/08
Posts: 2360

2/18/13 10:07:25 AM#52
I don't understand how people are acting like this doesn't already exist. There are plenty of PvP-only games out there. MOBA's may have a different 'style' but essentially they are the exact same thing. That's ALL you're doing. If there's no PvE, then what you're doing is logging into an arena to run around and smack people in. You can do that in plenty of games, I'm missing how CU is some bright shining example of shoulda-coulda-woulda.

"Forums aren't for intelligent discussion; they're for blow-hards with unwavering opinions."

  strangiato2112

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 9/21/12
Posts: 1566

2/18/13 10:10:26 AM#53
Originally posted by Vorthanion

I'm interested to see if such a niche game can meet its benchmark on funding.  Even if it just barely scrapes by, that does not bode well for its ability to make money.  I think the fund drive needs to be a huge success to prove once and for all that even a severley niche game can make a decent profit.  Maybe then, other developers will step forward with their niche ideas and start moving the genre forward.

 

I won't be helping as PvP is not my niche, but I have my fingers crossed for you guys so that it may lead to my niche being brought forward in the future (PVE only, casual, sandpark, no raids, huge virtual world for exploration).

2 million is a pretty significant amount.  Wont matter if it scrapes by or not, if it hits the 2 million people will take notice.

 

Niche games work, we already know this.  EvE is as niche as it can get.  

 

Niche games still have to be well made, thats why the darkfalls of the world fail.

  Vorthanion

Elite Member

Joined: 7/02/11
Posts: 1910

2/18/13 10:12:10 AM#54
Originally posted by strangiato2112
Originally posted by Vorthanion

I'm interested to see if such a niche game can meet its benchmark on funding.  Even if it just barely scrapes by, that does not bode well for its ability to make money.  I think the fund drive needs to be a huge success to prove once and for all that even a severley niche game can make a decent profit.  Maybe then, other developers will step forward with their niche ideas and start moving the genre forward.

 

I won't be helping as PvP is not my niche, but I have my fingers crossed for you guys so that it may lead to my niche being brought forward in the future (PVE only, casual, sandpark, no raids, huge virtual world for exploration).

2 million is a pretty significant amount.  Wont matter if it scrapes by or not, if it hits the 2 million people will take notice.

 

Niche games work, we already know this.  EvE is as niche as it can get.  

 

Niche games still have to be well made, thats why the darkfalls of the world fail.

That's my point, there needs to at least be a pattern of success and one niche game won't do that, but two is a good start and three would be even better.  Maybe one could do it if it were a huge success on the scale of a AAA game.

  lilwins

Novice Member

Joined: 12/11/07
Posts: 130

2/18/13 10:43:53 AM#55
Originally posted by meddyck
Originally posted by Smorak

LOL no one really likes PVE.  And where have I mentioned that care about your opinion?  I'm simply stating facts.  If you eliminate the PVE, the game is no longer a MMO its a MOBA.  And there are plenty of MOBA's out there right now that F2P.  So asking for subs for another one will be ridiculous.  In addition, EA has a Warhammer 3 realm MOBA already in place.  Is this game going to surpass simply because "Camelot" is in the title?

Do you even know what the A in MOBA stands for? Let me help you: arena. There isn't anything about CU that is comparable to a MOBA's instanced arenas. The world will be non-instanced and persistent just like DAOC's and WAR's frontiers. I'm baffled why people keep trying to call CU a MOBA just because you don't have to kill 1,000,000 NPCs to level to 50 before you go RvR.

People are dumb, don't even bother, rofl. Calling CU a MOBA (Multiplayer online battle arena) and comparing it to games like DOTA, LOL, HON, etc., is one of the dumbest statements I have heard in awhile.

lilwins Xfire Miniprofile
  shadevice

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/27/12
Posts: 71

2/18/13 10:55:57 AM#56

Lot of PVE discussion in this thread, not sure why, its not relevant to CU.

But I'll say my piece since its already been brought up. PVE is super repeatitive once you experience the content once, its no longer new, you know how to win, it becomes trivial even if it was once hard because you didnt know the correct strategy. Theres only been one PVE game that some how addicted me like crack, thats EQ1. The world was so vast, so  unforgiving yet remained fun. The feeling is hard to explain and only those who played classic EQ1 will understand.

RVR is always challenging and unpredictable. Sure there is some repeatition such as the correct abilities to use in certain encounters but the human unpredictability factor makes PVP new and intense nearly every battle.

Where PVE shines is the relaxing, comfortable setting it places you in. Thats why there are PVEers who enjoy that and PVPers who prefer the adreniline rush of PVP.

Perhaps one day Daoc 2.0 or a derivative there of will spawn and give everyone the best of both worlds but until then UC will hopefully exist and satisfy RVR junkies needs.

The great thing about a RVR only game is they only have to balance classes vs each other and not also vs enviornment. Thus reducing the exponential balacing factor greatly. Allowing for even better , competitive PVP.

I believe the game will be funded via kickstarter because its indeed time. Time for a revolution without too much negative evolution.  Evolution is good except when it changes the true core of what a MMORPG is. Old school games captured that and brought worlds to life. Will CU? If Mark's words in his blogs turn into factual programming. CU will devolve the degeneration that has occured in our beloved MMORPG genre. 

  Smorak

Novice Member

Joined: 2/01/07
Posts: 62

What man is a man that does not make the world better?

2/18/13 12:44:13 PM#57

Originally posted by meddyck

Do you even know what the A in MOBA stands for? Let me help you: arena. There isn't anything about CU that is comparable to a MOBA's instanced arenas. The world will be non-instanced and persistent just like DAOC's and WAR's frontiers. I'm baffled why people keep trying to call CU a MOBA just because you don't have to kill 1,000,000 NPCs to level to 50 before you go RvR.

So the A stands for Arena you say?  But where does it say instanced arena?  And what world do you live in?  The are boundaries on every game.  "Open" RVR is still an arena.  There are still places you cannot go.  It may be bigger to allow more people but nevertheless, it is still a contained enviornment.  the battlegrounds in DAoC were scaled down versions of the frontiers.  And the frontiers were an area that you zoned into.  It had its own rules separate from the PVE zones.  It was an ARENA.

 

Originally posted by Tadder

My point is that there is nothing intrinsically special about PvE vs. PvP for developing groups and relationships in an MMO. It's more about how the developers design the system. If the Devs make it so everyone needs to gang up and defeat a PvE dungeon, while 8 guys can roam RvR by themselves without an incentive to group, then yea that may happen. But if the Devs make (like I hope CU will be) a system where large PvP groups are rewarded for getting together and melting faces and working together then the I don't see how that isn't social. What builds comradery is working or struggling for a common goal, and it doesn't matter if that common goal is leveling up in a dungeon or destroying a player held tower.

So you're basically hoping that the devs make a system that forces people to PVP together.  Remeber the mantra of the salesman:  know, like, and trust.  As stressful as RVR is, people are not going to willing subject themselves to repetitive failure ie rage log.

Originally posted by lilwins

 

People are dumb, don't even bother, rofl. Calling CU a MOBA (Multiplayer online battle arena) and comparing it to games like DOTA, LOL, HON, etc., is one of the dumbest statements I have heard in awhile.
Please explain me to the difference between open rvr in WAR (minus siege) and say... max level LoL champs fully temped.  Let's eliminate your immediate responses of size of team and map.  Any experiment can be scaled up or down.  I bet your "dumb" response doesn't even happen.
  parrotpholk

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/20/05
Posts: 3317

2/18/13 3:40:35 PM#58
Loved DAoC but cannot bring myself to fund this one.  That magic only happens once.  Also it sounds to much like PS2 and to little like DAoC.
  cronius77

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/26/12
Posts: 1300

2/18/13 3:58:08 PM#59

i played DAOC for about 4 years and then warhammer online for another 2 , thinking back the last thing that I would of done right from level 1 the first time I played WAR was jump into the realm vs realm zones. After playing for a few days and making an alt , knowing the basic mechanics etc I then went right into RvR naked for the titles and laughs. But saying that , I do feel like some pve is good . You could see that in DAOC and WAR, in DAOC beating on the doors of a keep and having to fight off guards allowed players to get to the keep and defend. This also worked very well in warhammer but then they changed the mechanics about a year ago and no one would defend keeps because they took the guards away and just made it so you had to get through the doors. People would leave and not defend the zerges and that caused a lot of headaches and pretty much sealed the deal with warhammer and why its down to just its hardcore few fans left.

I question if no pve will work at all also with this project and am aprehensive myself about a bit. I wont pass judgement myself until after I hear how this will work exactly. If its just a zone with a warcamp and you have to go out of the warcamp and get camped , this just wont interest me at all. But if they make it so objectives are not just run , avoid pvp and capture objectives I will be interested. The no pve thing just completely bugs me though honestly , I think guards , a DF style dungeon , and objectives with incentive to defend and fight over is what made realm vs realm a lot of fun.

  MarkJacobs

CEO City State Entertainment

Joined: 12/18/12
Posts: 405

2/18/13 4:03:01 PM#60
Originally posted by cronius77

i played DAOC for about 4 years and then warhammer online for another 2 , thinking back the last thing that I would of done right from level 1 the first time I played WAR was jump into the realm vs realm zones. After playing for a few days and making an alt , knowing the basic mechanics etc I then went right into RvR naked for the titles and laughs. But saying that , I do feel like some pve is good . You could see that in DAOC and WAR, in DAOC beating on the doors of a keep and having to fight off guards allowed players to get to the keep and defend. This also worked very well in warhammer but then they changed the mechanics about a year ago and no one would defend keeps because they took the guards away and just made it so you had to get through the doors. People would leave and not defend the zerges and that caused a lot of headaches and pretty much sealed the deal with warhammer and why its down to just its hardcore few fans left.

I question if no pve will work at all also with this project and am aprehensive myself about a bit. I wont pass judgement myself until after I hear how this will work exactly. If its just a zone with a warcamp and you have to go out of the warcamp and get camped , this just wont interest me at all. But if they make it so objectives are not just run , avoid pvp and capture objectives I will be interested. The no pve thing just completely bugs me though honestly , I think guards , a DF style dungeon , and objectives with incentive to defend and fight over is what made realm vs realm a lot of fun.

Understandable but please don't confuse "No PvE or no PvE/levling" with "No DF" (or anything like that). There's more than one way to skin a dragon. :)

Mark Jacobs
CEO, City State Entertainment

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