Originally posted by syntax42
I played DAOC for the PvE, mostly.  RvR was fun before it turned into elitist 8-man groups who excluded me because of my realm rank.  If CU doesn't have a good PvE game, I won't be interested in playing it.

im guessing you came to daoc in the late stages of the game, this is why MJ is not trying to market CU as the next DAOC because what happened 4 years after release was not as he intended and as you would expect from a long running RVR foccoused game.

Edit; I mean alot of people put there heart and sole into daoc, they lived it, breathed it, died outside of it. DAOC had a community that held funerals for there loved players within the game, people knew them, all be it via killing them or playing along side them. DAOC is the only mmo in history that has bred such a community, and such a want for more. If you were unlucky enough not to experiance that im sorry for you because daoc in its prime was the best communtiy ever...

If there's anybody who can make an RvR game that comes close to what DAOC used to be, it's the people who designed DAOC in the first place. That's why I'm following TESO and CU with interest.

The problem with TESO based on what I read on their own web site is that it will be another game where RvRers will have to do PvE raids to stay competitive in RvR. I'm sick to death of that. Now it is possible that TESO's RvR will neverthless be so much fun that I'll be willing to raid in it. But I highly doubt it. More than likely it will be another WAR or GW 2 where RvR fans give it a shot and give up on it after a couple of months.

That's why I'm more than likely going to back CU's kickstarter. It's the kind of RvR game I want to play: one that doesn't require me to go on 40 main raids or grind instanced dungeons before I can RvR. Mark and co. could certainly get RvR wrong (again). They wouldn't be the first or the last. But I'm prepared to forgive and forget his past missteps in the hopes that he can make a new RvR game that will be fun for years. And if he fails again, who else will ever do better? At that point, we'll either need to settle for the kind of keep-swapping, PvE-in-order-to-RvR games the industry churns out or just give up on the whole concept of RvR.

I completely respect why others would be hesitant to put their money into a game like CU that is basically only a bunch of foundational statements at this point (but I'm sure Mark and crew have been hard at work behind the scenes designing how the game will play in detail so they can get right to work when/if the kickstarter succeeds). I can afford financially to take a chance on it. I expect that the kickstarter rewards will make it a good financial deal for anybody who would end up buying the game and subscribing for months anyway. YMMV.

Originally posted by meddyck

If there's anybody who can make an RvR game that comes close to what DAOC used to be, it's the people who designed DAOC in the first place. That's why I'm following TESO and CU with interest.

The problem with TESO based on what I read on their own web site is that it will be another game where RvRers will have to do PvE raids to stay competitive in RvR. I'm sick to death of that. Now it is possible that TESO's RvR will neverthless be so much fun that I'll be willing to raid in it. But I highly doubt it. More than likely it will be another WAR or GW 2 where RvR fans give it a shot and give up on it after a couple of months.

That's why I'm more than likely going to back CU's kickstarter. It's the kind of RvR game I want to play: one that doesn't require me to go on 40 main raids or grind instanced dungeons before I can RvR. Mark and co. could certainly get RvR wrong (again). They wouldn't be the first or the last. But I'm prepared to forgive and forget his past missteps in the hopes that he can make a new RvR game that will be fun for years. And if he fails again, who else will ever do better? At that point, we'll either need to settle for the kind of keep-swapping, PvE-in-order-to-RvR games the industry churns out or just give up on the whole concept of RvR.

I completely respect why others would be hesitant to put their money into a game like CU that is basically only a bunch of foundational statements at this point (but I'm sure Mark and crew have been hard at work behind the scenes designing how the game will play in detail so they can get right to work when/if the kickstarter succeeds). I can afford financially to take a chance on it. I expect that the kickstarter rewards will make it a good financial deal for anybody who would end up buying the game and subscribing for months anyway. YMMV.

im guessing MJ knows this and thats why he has chosen now to come out with this idea.

I'm not going to fund the game because its strictly RVR no more no less....

I'm not interested in an RVR centric game....... I loved DAOC but when he said no PVE that clinched it for me..........

Originally posted by nationalcity

I'm not going to fund the game because its strictly RVR no more no less....

 

I'm not interested in an RVR centric game....... I loved DAOC but when he said no PVE that clinched it for me..........

There are plenty of PvE games out there for you. Nobody has to like every game. Mark is making CU to appeal to a certain type of player (like me) who isn't being well served by the MMO industry. He gets that there is a big pool of WOW and clones players who won't find CU appealing. You're not his target audience.

Originally posted by Scilly

Originally posted by meddyck

If there's anybody who can make an RvR game that comes close to what DAOC used to be, it's the people who designed DAOC in the first place. That's why I'm following TESO and CU with interest.

The problem with TESO based on what I read on their own web site is that it will be another game where RvRers will have to do PvE raids to stay competitive in RvR. I'm sick to death of that. Now it is possible that TESO's RvR will neverthless be so much fun that I'll be willing to raid in it. But I highly doubt it. More than likely it will be another WAR or GW 2 where RvR fans give it a shot and give up on it after a couple of months.

That's why I'm more than likely going to back CU's kickstarter. It's the kind of RvR game I want to play: one that doesn't require me to go on 40 main raids or grind instanced dungeons before I can RvR. Mark and co. could certainly get RvR wrong (again). They wouldn't be the first or the last. But I'm prepared to forgive and forget his past missteps in the hopes that he can make a new RvR game that will be fun for years. And if he fails again, who else will ever do better? At that point, we'll either need to settle for the kind of keep-swapping, PvE-in-order-to-RvR games the industry churns out or just give up on the whole concept of RvR.

I completely respect why others would be hesitant to put their money into a game like CU that is basically only a bunch of foundational statements at this point (but I'm sure Mark and crew have been hard at work behind the scenes designing how the game will play in detail so they can get right to work when/if the kickstarter succeeds). I can afford financially to take a chance on it. I expect that the kickstarter rewards will make it a good financial deal for anybody who would end up buying the game and subscribing for months anyway. YMMV.

im guessing MJ knows this and thats why he has chosen now to come out with this idea.

Actually, we've been talking about this game in the studio for quite a long time. I just wasn't sure if:

1) I wanted to go down this path again since I knew that I would end up getting some heat for it.

2) I knew that getting traditional VC support for a niche MMORPG would be near impossible. I knew that my revenue projections would scare them off especially the bit about lowering subscription prices instead of trying to charge more.

When Kickstarter success stories started piling up, that solved one of the issues. As to (1), well, that was a very hard decision that I had to discuss with the studio, my family and myself. I gave the studio the option to kill the project and we would stick to mobile/tablet spaces and move on to another project and they supported it. My family was a bit more cautious because they remember that working on WAR with EA put me in the E.R. a few times but they did then did the sign-off thing.

As to TESO, actually, that was one of the reasons I didn't want to do the game. Matt has some really great people there and I think incredibly highly of the Bethesda guys so I had to weigh the fact that we were going to do a niche game that would be in the same space as one part of TESO. Not an easy challenge nor decision. But I believe in the vision for the game and I know that we will deliver a fun game for our players. Will it be outstanding, stupendous,  amazing? That will be up to the players to decide as I've sworn off such adjectives in describing CU.

Mark

FFXI is a great example of a MMORPG that puts almost all of their resources to create new PvE content and keep the PvE crowd happy.

How?

Well it's because they didn't waste their time trying to create PvP content for the game.

The biggest flaw with the current/upcoming MMORPGs is that they spend a lot of resources into creating a "hybrid MMORPG" that includes both PvE and PvP. If instead they would choose only to create a PvE mmorpg or a PvP mmorpg they would be able to produce a lot more content for the actual game.

Sure the problem in this is that you lose the typical PvP or PvE crowds if you choose one or the other but atleast you can provide one of the best mmorpg experiences in the market for certain players. FFXI is a good example of a game that has such a vast amount of PvE content that puts WoW into shame.

I will be supporting CU on their kickstarter simply because they are mainly saying that

"This is a RvR game, if you are looking for PvE go **** yourself"

I would also be supporting them if they decide to make a purely PvE game.

If you really want to make the best PvE mmorpg, focus on PvE and ditch PvP.

If you really want to make the best PvP mmorpg, focus on PvP and ditch PvE.

It's really simple.

so, is this the new thing? people give money to fund a project before even really knowing what it's like?

i'd like to able to at least test it or something before i invested or at least have a clear idea of what exactly is going on.

from what i read about this game it's not very clear.

Originally posted by GoldenArrow

FFXI is a great example of a MMORPG that puts almost all of their resources to create new PvE content and keep the PvE crowd happy.

How?

Well it's because they didn't waste their time trying to create PvP content for the game.

 

The biggest flaw with the current/upcoming MMORPGs is that they spend a lot of resources into creating a "hybrid MMORPG" that includes both PvE and PvP. If instead they would choose only to create a PvE mmorpg or a PvP mmorpg they would be able to produce a lot more content for the actual game.

Sure the problem in this is that you lose the typical PvP or PvE crowds if you choose one or the other but atleast you can provide one of the best mmorpg experiences in the market for certain players. FFXI is a good example of a game that has such a vast amount of PvE content that puts WoW into shame.

 

I will be supporting CU on their kickstarter simply because they are mainly saying that

"This is a RvR game, if you are looking for PvE go **** yourself"

I would also be supporting them if they decide to make a purely PvE game.

 

If you really want to make the best PvE mmorpg, focus on PvE and ditch PvP.

If you really want to make the best PvP mmorpg, focus on PvP and ditch PvE.

It's really simple.

Completely agree. I played FFXI for a few years and there was no pvp. it was an amazing experience. I expect the same thing from CSE. Great RVR for many years with no pve experiences meshed in.  Can't wait.

Not going to fund it.  Do you really know enough about this game?  He is asking for input here but as nice as input may be that doesn't mean what you want will be select for inclusion into CU.    You could be funding some features that you hate.

Will there be stealthers?  A simple question for which we have no official answer.

Originally posted by waynejr2

Not going to fund it.  Do you really know enough about this game?  He is asking for input here but as nice as input may be that doesn't mean what you want will be select for inclusion into CU.    You could be funding some features that you hate.

Will there be stealthers?  A simple question for which we have no official answer.

 How much information is available when the KS starts (3-4 weeks?) will impact how much I throw in. The dev posts are certainly helping clear things up, and at the rate Mark is turning them out there should be a lot of info available by the time kickstarter opens, not to mention KS stretch goals will add some info. I think one of mark's posts next week is getting at this, but maybe there should be an official thread that collects frequesnt questions and answers that the community wants to know to help people make up their minds on the KS.

Originally posted by waynejr2

Not going to fund it.  Do you really know enough about this game?  He is asking for input here but as nice as input may be that doesn't mean what you want will be select for inclusion into CU.    You could be funding some features that you hate.

Will there be stealthers?  A simple question for which we have no official answer.

How much do you really know about any game until you play it live? Most of us had no clue how WAR played in tier 4 until the game was released and we got high enough level to see for ourselves weeks or months after release. From what we saw in beta in tier 1, it looked like a great game.

Obviously funding the kickstarter isn't for everyone. But there's no requirement that you give him $1000 either. For many of us who loved DAOC, it's now 12 years later. We have jobs. We can afford to give $5, $25, or even more to make CU become a reality. It may turn out to be money wasted but so was the $60 I spent on the vanilla WOW box I set aside after playing 2 weeks. Big deal. The amount I invest in CU is not going to break my finances.

Originally posted by meddyck

Originally posted by waynejr2

Not going to fund it.  Do you really know enough about this game?  He is asking for input here but as nice as input may be that doesn't mean what you want will be select for inclusion into CU.    You could be funding some features that you hate.

Will there be stealthers?  A simple question for which we have no official answer.

How much do you really know about any game until you play it live? Most of us had no clue how WAR played in tier 4 until the game was released and we got high enough level to see for ourselves weeks or months after release. From what we saw in beta in tier 1, it looked like a great game.

Obviously funding the kickstarter isn't for everyone. But there's no requirement that you give him $1000 either. For many of us who loved DAOC, it's now 12 years later. We have jobs. We can afford to give $5, $25, or even more to make CU become a reality. It may turn out to be money wasted but so was the $60 I spent on the vanilla WOW box I set aside after playing 2 weeks. Big deal. The amount I invest in CU is not going to break my finances.

Yeah noone is obligated to toss up $1000 just to become a backer. I am sure if someone wanted to they could but it defintely isn't mandatory. I am a backer for Grim Dawn and Path of EXile. Between the 2 I donated a total of 85 bucks. 

Originally posted by Anthur
I agree that new ideas should be supported. But where is the innvoation in making a DAoC2 without PvE ?

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Some of the best words I've read on these forums to date.

The fact is, there is absolutely no innovation mentioned about this game at all.  It's a clone.  And instead of /20, there will be /maxlevel.  BOOM!  POW!  You can RVR day 1.  The whole idea of removing PVE is simply stupid.  PVE is where people meet.  PVE is where people have silly conversations while grinding.  PVE is where guilds are created, social networks are established, crafter get their clients, and where realms are brought together.

RVR is definitely the fun side.  But it is also the dark side.  RVR is where elitism was created.  RVR is where 3rd party programs were used to get ahead (RADAR!).  RVR is where people would join someone's vent server to complain about another guild adding on their fight and they win.  RVR is where alliances are broken not made.   RVR is where people spam LFG for hours, get ganked 1v8, lose stick from the zerg and struggle to catch up, are the first to die and last to get rezzed, don't use main assists, break CC, stealth zerg, and hump portal keeps.

A solid RVR game needs PVE for balance.

Considering how much I waste my money on sub par entertainment, bad food, and beer I think a few bucks toward enjoying MMORPGs again is not that big of a commitment.

I am all for old school types of games being made, but I will not be funding this.  Mark Jacobs could have at least spent SOME time developing a prototype before asking for money.  There are Indie developers out there that actually have spent time developing a game before going to Kickstarter asking for money.  I know he said he's going to sink a metric ton of his own money into this AFTER kickstarter funding, but it just rubs me the wrong way.

Everyone is getting so excited for concept.  I can't even understand why MMORPG.com has this game listed as "In Development" and even allowed on the hype meter.

I'm not hating on this game and want it to be made for those who are really excited for a DAoC the 2nd, I just don't like how a MAJOR developer/designer who has had incredible success in the gaming world can't even make up a prototype to show something off before asking for millions on Kickstarter.

Originally posted by Smorak

Originally posted by Anthur
I agree that new ideas should be supported. But where is the innvoation in making a DAoC2 without PvE ?

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Some of the best words I've read on these forums to date.

 

The fact is, there is absolutely no innovation mentioned about this game at all.  It's a clone.  And instead of /20, there will be /maxlevel.  BOOM!  POW!  You can RVR day 1.  The whole idea of removing PVE is simply stupid.  PVE is where people meet.  PVE is where people have silly conversations while grinding.  PVE is where guilds are created, social networks are established, crafter get their clients, and where realms are brought together.

RVR is definitely the fun side.  But it is also the dark side.  RVR is where elitism was created.  RVR is where 3rd party programs were used to get ahead (RADAR!).  RVR is where people would join someone's vent server to complain about another guild adding on their fight and they win.  RVR is where alliances are broken not made.   RVR is where people spam LFG for hours, get ganked 1v8, lose stick from the zerg and struggle to catch up, are the first to die and last to get rezzed, don't use main assists, break CC, stealth zerg, and hump portal keeps.

A solid RVR game needs PVE for balance.

Personally I don't like PvE I never have, all I want to do is RvR/PvP. A game where I don't have to PvE to grind gear for RvR is perfect for me. Why do you care how other people want to play? Why does it make you so angry, you just come off bitter.

Originally posted by MarkJacobs

Originally posted by Scilly

im guessing MJ knows this and thats why he has chosen now to come out with this idea.

Actually, we've been talking about this game in the studio for quite a long time. I just wasn't sure if:

1) I wanted to go down this path again since I knew that I would end up getting some heat for it.

2) I knew that getting traditional VC support for a niche MMORPG would be near impossible. I knew that my revenue projections would scare them off especially the bit about lowering subscription prices instead of trying to charge more.

When Kickstarter success stories started piling up, that solved one of the issues. As to (1), well, that was a very hard decision that I had to discuss with the studio, my family and myself. I gave the studio the option to kill the project and we would stick to mobile/tablet spaces and move on to another project and they supported it. My family was a bit more cautious because they remember that working on WAR with EA put me in the E.R. a few times but they did then did the sign-off thing.

As to TESO, actually, that was one of the reasons I didn't want to do the game. Matt has some really great people there and I think incredibly highly of the Bethesda guys so I had to weigh the fact that we were going to do a niche game that would be in the same space as one part of TESO. Not an easy challenge nor decision. But I believe in the vision for the game and I know that we will deliver a fun game for our players. Will it be outstanding, stupendous,  amazing? That will be up to the players to decide as I've sworn off such adjectives in describing CU.

Mark

I think my biggest problem with idea of a 40% fan funded game, is that you aren't creating anything truly original.  A post-apocalytic Camelot is still Camelot, the foundation for DAoC.  The realm descriptions even sound very dark age-ish.  Build something proprietary with innovation and creativity.

By your own words, the game appears to be a version of Frontiers with little or no PVE.  If you're trying to build an open world MOBA based off of the three realm system you previously established in DAoC, just say so.  You can alienate your mmo supporters now and they won't feel cheated later.

And, by the way, if you're going to cut the leg of PVE off this horse, your game is going to struggle.