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Camelot Unchained

Camelot Unchained 

General Discussion  » Mark Jacobs/CU - Please read - Stealth mechanics like DAOC please

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189 posts found
  waynejr2

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/12/11
Posts: 3714

RIP City of Heroes!

2/16/13 12:51:01 PM#101
Originally posted by cd3925
Originally posted by waynejr2
Originally posted by cd3925
Originally posted by waynejr2
Originally posted by lightingbird
Originally posted by KaiserPhoenix

You can have perma stealth if

 

-70% movement speed while stealthed

-players within a 6 meter radius can detect you

- you take 50% extra damage when broken prematurely out of stealth

 

 

stealth should be a tactical choice with downsides, not a faceroll I-WIN button.

I'm completely on board with all of this minue the damage part.  Maybe 10%.  50% would just be silly.  

 I bet you think the stealth guy should do double damage.  You are proving the point that stealthers want to pawn without reasonable downsides.  reducing damage is a great way to lower the power of stealth. 

If you think stealth is interesting and adds challenge to YOUR game play, well that is cool.  I don't think it works for either side of the issue. 

 

You know stealthers wear leather right? You know they are pretty squishy right?

 I didn't know you had played this game.  Many games had this mechanic and the discussion is not limited to a single game. Duh.

I understand that many games have it. Just pointing out that this and most others I have played balanced them buy being squishy is all.

 You could give him 1 hit point and zero armor.  IF the guy he attacks from stealth doesn't survive the "weakness" doesn't matter.  This is why you have to debuff dmg by say 50% (or another number). 

  keygan

Novice Member

Joined: 3/03/06
Posts: 237

2/16/13 2:56:05 PM#102

I would like to see stealth like planetside 1. If u stand still ur invis. If u walk u can see stealthers if u look or they move by/near you. If they crawl walk it is very hard but not impossible to notice them. And if you run it drains ur stamina and is super easy to see. It also costs stamina to move in stealth so you have to either crawl walk or stop moving to regain stamina.  

Just an idea so it isn't just easy mode. But I could take it any way really

  Tierless

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/01/08
Posts: 2098

joie de vivre

2/16/13 4:35:51 PM#103

I like predator like stealth. That way the stealther still requires skill to achieve the stealth attack.

mmorpg.com/blogs/Xobdnas

  User Deleted
2/16/13 5:02:11 PM#104
Actually the idea of a stamina system in which would limit your stealth time, while not hard-coding an actual duration for how long you can remain in stealth. Such as that you can remain in stealth as long as you like if there is no one to spot you, but that as more factors come into play your stamina drains faster. Thing like stealthing in a open area or well-lit places, stealthing near people (this would increase with the more people.), as well as stealthing in area or cover that might increase the difficulty of detecting you could all be used to increase or decrease the timer you have for stealthing.  Even making it that movement would actually make your stamina would drop while moving with you being camo'ed, but while stationary you are completley invis and your stealth time would stop counting till you resumed moving.
  fanglo

Novice Member

Joined: 5/26/04
Posts: 280

2/16/13 5:24:09 PM#105

First off, I think that any class a player creates should have the ability to solo, small-man, full group or zerg. I don't think that you should say, I'm a stealtehr I have to either solo or small man, or say, I'm a caster that means I can't solo.

Now that isn't to say that it should be easy for all classes at all styles but if the option was given for stealthers to group then they wouldn't have to be extremely OP'd solo to compensate for that being their only playstyle.  I also think if all classes had a way to create a solo spec maybe that particular spec could include anti-stealther abilities. Now the typical zerg playstyle spec would still get pwnd by stealthers all day everyday but there should be a way for any class to be able to counter stealthers at the cost of losing some utility that a zerg/group would want. That way if a player really hated stealthers they could build their class around that hatred.

I healed Mistwraith and all I got was this stupid tee-shirt!

  Herodes

Novice Member

Joined: 8/12/03
Posts: 1488

Consumer

2/16/13 5:38:13 PM#106

I never heard of this game before.

But all I can say is: do not implement stealth.
Mythic once said "stealth is hard to balance"

  Outis

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/07/07
Posts: 101

2/16/13 6:33:01 PM#107

Mark already talked about firing arrows will require the played to STOP before shooting. If an archer type can not stealth and if the caster/archer mechanics are the same in CU as in DAoC then archers are sitting ducks. My fondest memories in DAoC were with my infi. I loved running around watching the backlines while the rest of the realm laid siege to a keep. Attacking stragglers as they mindlessly ran straight into battle after respawning. However the best time I ever had was in a BG taking a keep and I could scale the keep wall while stealth then get to the top and POW. Pop PA hope my poison stuck and then jump before the defending realm would kill me. I died several time but I took a lot of hibs with me.

I hope stealth is in the game for rogues. I can not see the rogue archetype being viable in RvR without it. I remember always getting popped out of stealth from shrooms or a PBAE chanter (who never targeted me just spammed spells). I do feel there needs to be STRONG checks and balance regarding the stealth classes ex. Reavers with their pulsing low damage AOE (a rogue out of stealth = low survivability rate).

 I can honestly say I have not enjoyed a sneaky rogue type in a MMO since DAoC. I feel that most do not like the stealth in RvR/PvP because they want to fight a rogue toe-to-toe. Rogues do not fight fair!! Remember utility and any class can easily kill a rogue. Root, Mez, Dot, or attack with (spell) pets.

Last thing and then I will quit this post, from the years I have played MMOs most newer players feel their “character/class” should be able to kill any and all other classes. I do feel rogues should be able to kill casters and other rogues if they get the jump on them first. I think hybrids should be harder to kill and pure tanks near impossible (do to their HP). This should put the class on the same leveling field as the rest.

  • Permanent stealth is fine as long as one other class can have a high “checks” against stealth, either active or passive ability
  • Other classes have PBAE or Ground Targeting Spells
  • Assassins should be extremely weak fighting another player if the assassin failed to strike in stealth
  • Rogue’s attacks should ALWAYS be single target but with high DPS

Not allowing the rogues to have stealth would be the same argument as casters not able to have long range bolt spells with medium-high DPS. I hope this game has a great role for the rogue type classes. 

  time007

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/09/09
Posts: 334

"Get your FPS out of my MMORPG" - Timetrapper (me)

 
OP  2/16/13 6:52:07 PM#108
Originally posted by Asuran24
Originally posted by Hokibukisa
Originally posted by Tayah
Originally posted by KaiserPhoenix

You can have perma stealth if

 

-70% movement speed while stealthed

-players within a 6 meter radius can detect you

- you take 50% extra damage when broken prematurely out of stealth

 

 

stealth should be a tactical choice with downsides, not a faceroll I-WIN button.

Well said.

Yes let people that hate assassins design the class. You could be the Mackey 2!

An yeah let the people that love the class design it, will most likely lead to alot of op factors in the class. No extreme should design thier prefered classes in a game at all, but steath should have some rather powerful disadventages to it as stealth is extremely op in most cases (most of all un-timed stealth.).

 

Stealth should always reduce your movement as you have to move much more carefully, also it should be affected by your distance to the target (and what way they are facing) with the distance prior you being detected being closer when from behind compared to infront. Also the fact of having a debuff applied or such when you are broken out of steath by someone else, such as by being spotted or such is a good idea, with for me it being more a confusion fact that you have a reduction in your effectiveness now (damage, movement, and such.). THis leads to you having to be much more careful of how you approach, while giving the other players advantages as well if they play well. Sorry but also stealthers are not the majority and should be catters to any  more or less than anyother class or playstyle. 

 

 

 

Mark and everyone please read the below thoroughly if possible.  This isn't aimed at anyone in particular or aimed to be too sarcastic, but just more a response to the flawed mentality behind stealth and stealther class design.

 

Again, please read this because most of you who are against un-timed stealth know nothing of the history of the class within DAOC.  I'm trying to provide you rational facts that you can read and comprehend what was initially right, and where it went wrong over the years, and not just use CU stealthers as an experiment like they did in WAR.

 

Stealthers in the first 1-3 years of DAOC were hardly played, here is why:

1.  They were hard to spec properly as: A.  There were no respecs, B. Spec points were at a minimum, C.  Leveling to 50 was really really hard back then and no one wanted to group stealthers in PVE, so yes it was a huge challenge to level to 50.  It took quite a while.  D. Buffbots were not as prevalent.  E.  Only a handful of people (career stealthers) properly were able to put in the time and effort and gain experience to know how to make a stealther that could do well in RVR (i.e. there were no stealth zergs as your everyday casual couldnt create a decent stealther.  So if you messed up your stealther spec wise, you either had to keep playing that gimp, or re-roll a new stealther from scratch and invest months and months more time.  Which again, a career stealther will do, but Joe Alt won't.  So this kept out the mainstreamers basically. 

 

Over the course of the game's life (after 4 years): A. Leveling to 50 got easier & faster, which increased the number of alts.  B.  Respecs became available, which meant if you screwed up your spec because you had no idea how to spec an inf, you could just go to a 7-11 and respec and try again.  C.  For whatever magical reason stealthers got lovin' (I'm guessing Average Joe Stealther Alt outrage at the fact of "my alt stealther sucks" lead to Left Axe uberness, Uber Dots, More spec points, etc)

 

So over the years you now have a class that was once a hard to spec niche class, now open to everyone to ding to 50 in a week, respec as they please, get a buffbot, and just run out and be an invisible killing machine.  As opposed to years before where if you messed up your spec, you just lost 3+ months of work and were stuck with that gimp.  Or even if you knew what you were doing you had a finely tuned niche character with just enough spec points to be effective.  But again my point is:

 

If you allow people who hate stealthers, or people who play stealthers as ALTS for fun (I.E career casters or career tanks) to design the class, you will end up screwing up stealthers!!  So these are the facts behind it.  So please don't just say whatever pops into your head like, nontimed stealth is stupid, will lead to zergs etc, its broken, its archaic, its OP, etc.  I'm trying to provide you guys a history of DAOC stealth and how it came to be so divisive.  Actually career stealthers rarely complain about how gimpy/squishy their class is.  We only complain if you take out a core part of what we need to survive.  It is only when the mainstream wants to try out our class that our class then evolves into this polarized flavor of the month type class that everyone either hates or loves. 

 

So this is why I say, introduce stealthers into CU with the same mechanics we had in the first 1-3 years of DAOC, before we were glass cannon killing machines that anyone could just create, respec, equip in 1-2 weeks.  I'm not trying to be this little elitist, but just trying to review history for facts and also I do get the sort of intense attitude say for example a roleplayer gets when someone tries to stick their finger into his roleplaying pie, which i hope isnt coming off as elitist.  Apologies if it is, dont hold it against me please.

 

-limit respecs as much as possible

-limit alts to the point where if you want another level 50 stealther character it will take you months to make him RVR viable

-early DAOC had huge barriers to entry if you wanted to be a decent stealther, so please just create these same barriers but also keep the same/similar stealther mechanics from the first 1-3 years of the game.  this will curb our population down to just the serious ghosts.  (for the first 3 years we just had barely enough of what we needed to survive, which was fine for us but still had our core mechanics. And by core I mean something that can't be watered down without ruining the class for the full-time players of that class, which is why I'm so adament that this remain untouched.)

 

Best regards,

 

Timetrapper

  cd3925

Novice Member

Joined: 2/06/13
Posts: 29

2/16/13 7:16:14 PM#109
Originally posted by time007
Originally posted by Asuran24
Originally posted by Hokibukisa
Originally posted by Tayah
Originally posted by KaiserPhoenix

You can have perma stealth if

 

-70% movement speed while stealthed

-players within a 6 meter radius can detect you

- you take 50% extra damage when broken prematurely out of stealth

 

 

stealth should be a tactical choice with downsides, not a faceroll I-WIN button.

Well said.

Yes let people that hate assassins design the class. You could be the Mackey 2!

An yeah let the people that love the class design it, will most likely lead to alot of op factors in the class. No extreme should design thier prefered classes in a game at all, but steath should have some rather powerful disadventages to it as stealth is extremely op in most cases (most of all un-timed stealth.).

 

Stealth should always reduce your movement as you have to move much more carefully, also it should be affected by your distance to the target (and what way they are facing) with the distance prior you being detected being closer when from behind compared to infront. Also the fact of having a debuff applied or such when you are broken out of steath by someone else, such as by being spotted or such is a good idea, with for me it being more a confusion fact that you have a reduction in your effectiveness now (damage, movement, and such.). THis leads to you having to be much more careful of how you approach, while giving the other players advantages as well if they play well. Sorry but also stealthers are not the majority and should be catters to any  more or less than anyother class or playstyle. 

 

 

 

Mark and everyone please read the below thoroughly if possible.  This isn't aimed at anyone in particular or aimed to be too sarcastic, but just more a response to the flawed mentality behind stealth and stealther class design.

 

Again, please read this because most of you who are against un-timed stealth know nothing of the history of the class within DAOC.  I'm trying to provide you rational facts that you can read and comprehend what was initially right, and where it went wrong over the years, and not just use CU stealthers as an experiment like they did in WAR.

 

Stealthers in the first 1-3 years of DAOC were hardly played, here is why:

1.  They were hard to spec properly as: A.  There were no respecs, B. Spec points were at a minimum, C.  Leveling to 50 was really really hard back then and no one wanted to group stealthers in PVE, so yes it was a huge challenge to level to 50.  It took quite a while.  D. Buffbots were not as prevalent.  E.  Only a handful of people (career stealthers) properly were able to put in the time and effort and gain experience to know how to make a stealther that could do well in RVR (i.e. there were no stealth zergs as your everyday casual couldnt create a decent stealther.  So if you messed up your stealther spec wise, you either had to keep playing that gimp, or re-roll a new stealther from scratch and invest months and months more time.  Which again, a career stealther will do, but Joe Alt won't.  So this kept out the mainstreamers basically. 

 

Over the course of the game's life (after 4 years): A. Leveling to 50 got easier & faster, which increased the number of alts.  B.  Respecs became available, which meant if you screwed up your spec because you had no idea how to spec an inf, you could just go to a 7-11 and respec and try again.  C.  For whatever magical reason stealthers got lovin' (I'm guessing Average Joe Stealther Alt outrage at the fact of "my alt stealther sucks" lead to Left Axe uberness, Uber Dots, More spec points, etc)

 

So over the years you now have a class that was once a hard to spec niche class, now open to everyone to ding to 50 in a week, respec as they please, get a buffbot, and just run out and be an invisible killing machine.  As opposed to years before where if you messed up your spec, you just lost 3+ months of work and were stuck with that gimp.  Or even if you knew what you were doing you had a finely tuned niche character with just enough spec points to be effective.  But again my point is:

 

If you allow people who hate stealthers, or people who play stealthers as ALTS for fun (I.E career casters or career tanks) to design the class, you will end up screwing up stealthers!!  So these are the facts behind it.  So please don't just say whatever pops into your head like, nontimed stealth is stupid, will lead to zergs etc, its broken, its archaic, its OP, etc.  I'm trying to provide you guys a history of DAOC stealth and how it came to be so divisive.  Actually career stealthers rarely complain about how gimpy/squishy their class is.  We only complain if you take out a core part of what we need to survive.  It is only when the mainstream wants to try out our class that our class then evolves into this polarized flavor of the month type class that everyone either hates or loves. 

 

So this is why I say, introduce stealthers into CU with the same mechanics we had in the first 1-3 years of DAOC, before we were glass cannon killing machines that anyone could just create, respec, equip in 1-2 weeks.  I'm not trying to be this little elitist, but just trying to review history for facts and also I do get the sort of intense attitude say for example a roleplayer gets when someone tries to stick their finger into his roleplaying pie, which i hope isnt coming off as elitist.  Apologies if it is, dont hold it against me please.

 

-limit respecs as much as possible

-limit alts to the point where if you want another level 50 stealther character it will take you months to make him RVR viable

-early DAOC had huge barriers to entry if you wanted to be a decent stealther, so please just create these same barriers but also keep the same/similar stealther mechanics from the first 1-3 years of the game.  this will curb our population down to just the serious ghosts.  (for the first 3 years we just had barely enough of what we needed to survive, which was fine for us but still had our core mechanics. And by core I mean something that can't be watered down without ruining the class for the full-time players of that class, which is why I'm so adament that this remain untouched.)

AMEN!

  User Deleted
2/16/13 7:27:54 PM#110

Sorry ti still remains if you love playing a class weither it is a stealther or not you will make changes that actually will make it better, while just the same if you hate it you will make changes that will weaken it as you hate it. Both of these types of players should not or should have vastly lower degrees of influence on the design of the class to keep it balanced, while should be used as a factor of looking at ideas tey brought up that might be able to be tweaked into more balanced usage. 

 

Anyone that thinks being able to choose when, who, and how you engage an opponent is not over powered in several areas, is alittle dilluted. This is a fundamental fact of how a stealther is built they are a oppurtunist, and so you must factor that in to how you create the disadvantages for their advantage of choosing when to fight or not.  As i said giving them a fact that when they are actually found or taken out of stealth by others they gain a de-buffs makes them less op to others, while also making those playwrs that use them have to be much better at how they play. The same with making how you approach and where you approaach a target extremely important as well. You can not base your game on old niche ideas that are trully going the way of the doto, but have to update them as your game will not last otherwise, yet you do also need to make those changes in a informed an planned manner (take all info into account nt just that of one group.). 

  Outis

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/07/07
Posts: 101

2/16/13 7:49:08 PM#111
I could not agree more with Time007

  fanglo

Novice Member

Joined: 5/26/04
Posts: 280

2/16/13 7:57:19 PM#112
Originally posted by Outis
I could not agree more with Time007

Lol so many edits. But I disagree. Career caster and tanks should have as much a say in how stealth works as career mdps. 

I healed Mistwraith and all I got was this stupid tee-shirt!

  time007

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/09/09
Posts: 334

"Get your FPS out of my MMORPG" - Timetrapper (me)

 
OP  2/16/13 8:02:25 PM#113
Originally posted by Asuran24

Sorry ti still remains if you love playing a class weither it is a stealther or not you will make changes that actually will make it better, while just the same if you hate it you will make changes that will weaken it as you hate it. Both of these types of players should not or should have vastly lower degrees of influence on the design of the class to keep it balanced, while should be used as a factor of looking at ideas tey brought up that might be able to be tweaked into more balanced usage. 

 

Anyone that thinks being able to choose when, who, and how you engage an opponent is not over powered in several areas, is alittle dilluted. This is a fundamental fact of how a stealther is built they are a oppurtunist, and so you must factor that in to how you create the disadvantages for their advantage of choosing when to fight or not.  As i said giving them a fact that when they are actually found or taken out of stealth by others they gain a de-buffs makes them less op to others, while also making those playwrs that use them have to be much better at how they play. The same with making how you approach and where you approaach a target extremely important as well. You can not base your game on old niche ideas that are trully going the way of the doto, but have to update them as your game will not last otherwise, yet you do also need to make those changes in a informed an planned manner (take all info into account nt just that of one group.). 

....... You missed the entire point of my post.  I want to make it harder to make a good stealther.  I love playing the class and I don't want to weaken or strengthen it.  I want it to be a long trek to having a viable stealther.  You think I want 50,000 stealth flavor of the month lovers out there with me?  Why would i want to strengthen it?  I just want it to have its core capabilities.  I wish you could understand the difference between balance and what a class requires.  Tanks need armor full time, Mages need magic full time, Stealthers need stealth full-time.  Now, once you have those core things, you should make it a long hard trek to making those classes viable for RVR. 

 

Just to edit, I think you are confusing the process of equipping a class with its core components, vs. what comes after which is the balancing act of the additional abilities such as envenom, critical strike % etc.  For example, you know right off the bat, a knight is going to get plate armor 100% of the time, now we have to determine, ok, will he have a insta heal, or a protect mechanism for his buddy as an additional abilitiy, etc. 

 

Another edit, which is an example, almost a comparison, which i dont like to do much:  Would you think its right to have tanks be sort of like Colossus from X-men?  Where they are basically naked until they hit their "metal armor" on ability which only lasts 30 seconds, and then they are naked again?  No of course not, they should run around in full armor all the time. 

 

I know its sort of like comparing apples to oranges, but I'm telling you that when others try to water down our non-timed stealth, its sort of that "wtf" feeling you would get if your tank now couldnt wear his armor 100% of the time.  You'd be like, dude i'm not Colossus from X-men. 

  fanglo

Novice Member

Joined: 5/26/04
Posts: 280

2/16/13 8:15:33 PM#114
Originally posted by time007
Originally posted by Asuran24

Sorry ti still remains if you love playing a class weither it is a stealther or not you will make changes that actually will make it better, while just the same if you hate it you will make changes that will weaken it as you hate it. Both of these types of players should not or should have vastly lower degrees of influence on the design of the class to keep it balanced, while should be used as a factor of looking at ideas tey brought up that might be able to be tweaked into more balanced usage. 

 

Anyone that thinks being able to choose when, who, and how you engage an opponent is not over powered in several areas, is alittle dilluted. This is a fundamental fact of how a stealther is built they are a oppurtunist, and so you must factor that in to how you create the disadvantages for their advantage of choosing when to fight or not.  As i said giving them a fact that when they are actually found or taken out of stealth by others they gain a de-buffs makes them less op to others, while also making those playwrs that use them have to be much better at how they play. The same with making how you approach and where you approaach a target extremely important as well. You can not base your game on old niche ideas that are trully going the way of the doto, but have to update them as your game will not last otherwise, yet you do also need to make those changes in a informed an planned manner (take all info into account nt just that of one group.). 

....... You missed the entire point of my post.  I want to make it harder to make a good stealther.  I love playing the class and I don't want to weaken or strengthen it.  I want it to be a long trek to having a viable stealther.  You think I want 50,000 stealth flavor of the month lovers out there with me?  Why would i want to strengthen it?  I just want it to have its core capabilities.  I wish you could understand the difference between balance and what a class requires.  Tanks need armor full time, Mages need magic full time, Stealthers need stealth full-time.  Now, once you have those core things, you should make it a long hard trek to making those classes viable for RVR. 

 

Just to edit, I think you are confusing the process of equipping a class with its core components, vs. what comes after which is the balancing act of the additional abilities such as envenom, critical strike % etc.  For example, you know right off the bat, a knight is going to get plate armor 100% of the time, now we have to determine, ok, will he have a insta heal, or a protect mechanism for his buddy as an additional abilitiy, etc. 

ok so don't make stealth a core component. Make it secondary.

I healed Mistwraith and all I got was this stupid tee-shirt!

  time007

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/09/09
Posts: 334

"Get your FPS out of my MMORPG" - Timetrapper (me)

 
OP  2/16/13 8:19:44 PM#115
Originally posted by fanglo
Originally posted by Outis
I could not agree more with Time007

Lol so many edits. But I disagree. Career caster and tanks should have as much a say in how stealth works as career mdps. 

Ok thats fine, let stealthers have a say in magic and tanking. 

 

1.  Alright tanks, so you can have armor for 30 seconds once you hit your armor on button, then it goes away and you can't reuse it for another 30 seconds.  Use it wisely.  Maybe position yourself well then get out, because well after that 30 seconds, your basically  naked.  that includes your shield and equipped armor.  This isnt a buff, its a 30 second privledge to wear your armor and shield, then when it runs out, i want to take it away. 

 

2.  Casters, you have 15 seconds after hitting your "flame on" button to use magic, then after that you are burned out and can't use magic again for 30 seconds, even if you didnt use any mana, your still burned out.  so you have 15 seconds to cast as much as possible, ieven if you have the capability to cash 30 bolts, well you got enough time to cast 3, good luck. 

 

You like me sticking my finger in your pie?  You like someone who knows nothing about your class trying to take away a core component?  Of course not, who does?

  fanglo

Novice Member

Joined: 5/26/04
Posts: 280

2/16/13 8:25:59 PM#116
Originally posted by time007
Originally posted by fanglo
Originally posted by Outis
I could not agree more with Time007

Lol so many edits. But I disagree. Career caster and tanks should have as much a say in how stealth works as career mdps. 

Ok thats fine, let stealthers have a say in magic and tanking. 

 

1.  Alright tanks, so you can have armor for 30 seconds once you hit your armor on button, then it goes away and you can't reuse it for another 30 seconds.  Use it wisely.  Maybe position yourself well then get out, because well after that 30 seconds, your basically  naked.  that includes your shield and equipped armor.  This isnt a buff, its a 30 second privledge to wear your armor and shield, then when it runs out, i want to take it away. 

 

2.  Casters, you have 15 seconds after hitting your "flame on" button to use magic, then after that you are burned out and can't use magic again for 30 seconds, even if you didnt use any mana, your still burned out.  so you have 15 seconds to cast as much as possible, ieven if you have the capability to cash 30 bolts, well you got enough time to cast 3, good luck. 

 

You like me sticking my finger in your pie?  You like someone who knows nothing about your class trying to take away a core component?  Of course not, who does?

Lol your #2 suggestion sounds like a warlock and they are OP as crap. Not sure why you would want warlocks in CU.

 

Edit: Back on topic, I get what you are saying, but a caster should have some say in stealth mechanics. For example as an eld in Daoc I helped nerf the mechanic that allowed 2 scouts to simultaneously cast their timbered uber arrow bolt of doom insta killing any caster from an absurd range. Now it takes 3 scouts to do that, as it should! Without letting casters to give this feedback then people would stop playing a caster. I'll look up the thread for you.

I healed Mistwraith and all I got was this stupid tee-shirt!

  NegativeJoe

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 166

sorry if it hurts

2/16/13 8:30:31 PM#117


Originally posted by time007

Originally posted by fanglo

Originally posted by Outis I could not agree more with Time007
Lol so many edits. But I disagree. Career caster and tanks should have as much a say in how stealth works as career mdps. 
Ok thats fine, let stealthers have a say in magic and tanking. 

 

1.  Alright tanks, so you can have armor for 30 seconds once you hit your armor on button, then it goes away and you can't reuse it for another 30 seconds.  Use it wisely.  Maybe position yourself well then get out, because well after that 30 seconds, your basically  naked.  that includes your shield and equipped armor.  This isnt a buff, its a 30 second privledge to wear your armor and shield, then when it runs out, i want to take it away. 

 

2.  Casters, you have 15 seconds after hitting your "flame on" button to use magic, then after that you are burned out and can't use magic again for 30 seconds, even if you didnt use any mana, your still burned out.  so you have 15 seconds to cast as much as possible, ieven if you have the capability to cash 30 bolts, well you got enough time to cast 3, good luck. 

 

You like me sticking my finger in your pie?  You like someone who knows nothing about your class trying to take away a core component?  Of course not, who does?


this may be the most ridiculous thing i have ever read. did i miss where someone suggested that rogues not only should have timed invisibility, but also lose their daggers/bow after 30 seconds? that made no sense and sounded like a flaming pile of QQ

and for the record, im fine with steath the way it was in original daoc. yes you can afk for as long as you want usually, just not anywhere stupid.
but i'm not really a people person as i grew older and don't like to group. i want to fight on my terms, when i want, when the other person has no clue its coming. its just way easier that way and i enjoy easy.

::::26:: ::::26:: ::::26::

  time007

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/09/09
Posts: 334

"Get your FPS out of my MMORPG" - Timetrapper (me)

 
OP  2/16/13 8:30:31 PM#118
Originally posted by fanglo
Originally posted by time007
Originally posted by Asuran24

Sorry ti still remains if you love playing a class weither it is a stealther or not you will make changes that actually will make it better, while just the same if you hate it you will make changes that will weaken it as you hate it. Both of these types of players should not or should have vastly lower degrees of influence on the design of the class to keep it balanced, while should be used as a factor of looking at ideas tey brought up that might be able to be tweaked into more balanced usage. 

 

Anyone that thinks being able to choose when, who, and how you engage an opponent is not over powered in several areas, is alittle dilluted. This is a fundamental fact of how a stealther is built they are a oppurtunist, and so you must factor that in to how you create the disadvantages for their advantage of choosing when to fight or not.  As i said giving them a fact that when they are actually found or taken out of stealth by others they gain a de-buffs makes them less op to others, while also making those playwrs that use them have to be much better at how they play. The same with making how you approach and where you approaach a target extremely important as well. You can not base your game on old niche ideas that are trully going the way of the doto, but have to update them as your game will not last otherwise, yet you do also need to make those changes in a informed an planned manner (take all info into account nt just that of one group.). 

....... You missed the entire point of my post.  I want to make it harder to make a good stealther.  I love playing the class and I don't want to weaken or strengthen it.  I want it to be a long trek to having a viable stealther.  You think I want 50,000 stealth flavor of the month lovers out there with me?  Why would i want to strengthen it?  I just want it to have its core capabilities.  I wish you could understand the difference between balance and what a class requires.  Tanks need armor full time, Mages need magic full time, Stealthers need stealth full-time.  Now, once you have those core things, you should make it a long hard trek to making those classes viable for RVR. 

 

Just to edit, I think you are confusing the process of equipping a class with its core components, vs. what comes after which is the balancing act of the additional abilities such as envenom, critical strike % etc.  For example, you know right off the bat, a knight is going to get plate armor 100% of the time, now we have to determine, ok, will he have a insta heal, or a protect mechanism for his buddy as an additional abilitiy, etc. 

ok so don't make stealth a core component. Make it secondary.

 

Again, missing the point of my post.  I'll try to make it more clear.

 

Is full-time magic a core component for a mage?  Yes, it cannot be made secondary, because its a core compenent.  No amount of saying it isnt will change that.

 

Is full-time armor that is worn a core component for a tank?  Yes, it cannot be made secondary, because it is a core component.  No amount of saying it isnt will change that.

Is full-time stealth a core component for a stealther?  Yes, it cannot be made secondary, because it is a core component.  No amount of saying it isnt will change that.

 

IF, please read, IF you adjust any of these things you are creating a HYBRID.  Do you follow?  If you make magic a secondary component for a mage, it becomes a hybrid.  if you make armor a secondary component for a tank it is a hybrid.  If you make a stealth a secondary component for a stealther it becomes a hybrid.

 

So you want to do this to stealthers in this game?  you want a hybrid like cloaked merc?  Fine, ok there please do not implement mages or tanks either.  We will have 3 classes only.  Bandit/Merc skirmishers with cloak,  spellswords, and battleclerics.  There you happy?  You wanna dilute my stealther into a hybrid plesae let me do so with the other core classes.  and we can only allow these 3 as well, the core classes have been eliminated, just as my core class has been eliminated with the watering down of stealth.

  User Deleted
2/16/13 8:42:58 PM#119
Originally posted by time007

....... You missed the entire point of my post.  I want to make it harder to make a good stealther.  I love playing the class and I don't want to weaken or strengthen it.  I want it to be a long trek to having a viable stealther.  You think I want 50,000 stealth flavor of the month lovers out there with me?  Why would i want to strengthen it?  I just want it to have its core capabilities.  I wish you could understand the difference between balance and what a class requires.  Tanks need armor full time, Mages need magic full time, Stealthers need stealth full-time.  Now, once you have those core things, you should make it a long hard trek to making those classes viable for RVR. 

 

Just to edit, I think you are confusing the process of equipping a class with its core components, vs. what comes after which is the balancing act of the additional abilities such as envenom, critical strike % etc.  For example, you know right off the bat, a knight is going to get plate armor 100% of the time, now we have to determine, ok, will he have a insta heal, or a protect mechanism for his buddy as an additional abilitiy, etc. 

 

Another edit, which is an example, almost a comparison, which i dont like to do much:  Would you think its right to have tanks be sort of like Colossus from X-men?  Where they are basically naked until they hit their "metal armor" on ability which only lasts 30 seconds, and then they are naked again?  No of course not, they should run around in full armor all the time. 

 

I know its sort of like comparing apples to oranges, but I'm telling you that when others try to water down our non-timed stealth, its sort of that "wtf" feeling you would get if your tank now couldnt wear his armor 100% of the time.  You'd be like, dude i'm not Colossus from X-men. 

Well you have alot more an also better ways of making a stealther harder to be made,a nd used than giving them uncontested freedom by giving them un-timed stealth. You can make them actually worry about how they approach, how they stalk, where they are in the area, and whho they are fighting, which all make playing the class harder without needing perma-stealth. While also maaking the stealther have to pay attention to when their stealth will fall off, where they are more offen going to be seen or detected, and such are also grat ways of improving the difficulty of playing a effective stealther an showing the difference in skill of them. 

 

A stealther only needs access to stealth to be a stealth class, how long it lasts, how easy it is to get into, and also what you gain from that stealth are all secondary trully. Just because a knight uses or has plate amor constently is not as important as how they use it, it is the same for stealthers it is when or how they use their  stealth that matters not hwo long it lasts. Also it actually improves the difficulty of the class making stealth time finite or variable based on what is happening, as the stealther can not jsut wait forever for an oppertunity, but actually has to make a choice of weather to engage of move on. Also how long a stealth lasts is secondary to if the stealther has access to it. 

 

An no i am actually looking at balancing the bonuses gained from core abilties or factors. with the draw-backs of the same care ability. Like that wearing plate-armor grants a knight higher armor compared to lesser armored character, but should reduce their movement speed and reaction time for that improved protection. THis is also true of stealth that  with the fact a stealther gains the ability to choose when they fight, who they fight, and also in what shape they will fith, they need equally heavy disadvantages for this quite powerful advantage they gained. and so an adiquite dis-advantage would be reduced movement in stealth, having to be mindful of where an how close you approach a target, and even that you gain a penalty from being taken out of stealth by other players.

  fanglo

Novice Member

Joined: 5/26/04
Posts: 280

2/16/13 8:45:09 PM#120
Originally posted by time007
Originally posted by fanglo
Originally posted by time007
Originally posted by Asuran24

Sorry ti still remains if you love playing a class weither it is a stealther or not you will make changes that actually will make it better, while just the same if you hate it you will make changes that will weaken it as you hate it. Both of these types of players should not or should have vastly lower degrees of influence on the design of the class to keep it balanced, while should be used as a factor of looking at ideas tey brought up that might be able to be tweaked into more balanced usage. 

 

Anyone that thinks being able to choose when, who, and how you engage an opponent is not over powered in several areas, is alittle dilluted. This is a fundamental fact of how a stealther is built they are a oppurtunist, and so you must factor that in to how you create the disadvantages for their advantage of choosing when to fight or not.  As i said giving them a fact that when they are actually found or taken out of stealth by others they gain a de-buffs makes them less op to others, while also making those playwrs that use them have to be much better at how they play. The same with making how you approach and where you approaach a target extremely important as well. You can not base your game on old niche ideas that are trully going the way of the doto, but have to update them as your game will not last otherwise, yet you do also need to make those changes in a informed an planned manner (take all info into account nt just that of one group.). 

....... You missed the entire point of my post.  I want to make it harder to make a good stealther.  I love playing the class and I don't want to weaken or strengthen it.  I want it to be a long trek to having a viable stealther.  You think I want 50,000 stealth flavor of the month lovers out there with me?  Why would i want to strengthen it?  I just want it to have its core capabilities.  I wish you could understand the difference between balance and what a class requires.  Tanks need armor full time, Mages need magic full time, Stealthers need stealth full-time.  Now, once you have those core things, you should make it a long hard trek to making those classes viable for RVR. 

 

Just to edit, I think you are confusing the process of equipping a class with its core components, vs. what comes after which is the balancing act of the additional abilities such as envenom, critical strike % etc.  For example, you know right off the bat, a knight is going to get plate armor 100% of the time, now we have to determine, ok, will he have a insta heal, or a protect mechanism for his buddy as an additional abilitiy, etc. 

ok so don't make stealth a core component. Make it secondary.

 

Again, missing the point of my post.  I'll try to make it more clear.

 

Is full-time magic a core component for a mage?  Yes, it cannot be made secondary, because its a core compenent.  No amount of saying it isnt will change that.

 

Is full-time armor that is worn a core component for a tank?  Yes, it cannot be made secondary, because it is a core component.  No amount of saying it isnt will change that.

Is full-time stealth a core component for a stealther?  Yes, it cannot be made secondary, because it is a core component.  No amount of saying it isnt will change that.

 

IF, please read, IF you adjust any of these things you are creating a HYBRID.  Do you follow?  If you make magic a secondary component for a mage, it becomes a hybrid.  if you make armor a secondary component for a tank it is a hybrid.  If you make a stealth a secondary component for a stealther it becomes a hybrid.

 

So you want to do this to stealthers in this game?  you want a hybrid like cloaked merc?  Fine, ok there please do not implement mages or tanks either.  We will have 3 classes only.  Bandit/Merc skirmishers with cloak,  spellswords, and battleclerics.  There you happy?  You wanna dilute my stealther into a hybrid plesae let me do so with the other core classes.  and we can only allow these 3 as well, the core classes have been eliminated, just as my core class has been eliminated with the watering down of stealth.

Ok first please look at my prior post in this thread. I thinks permanent stealth is a fine concept. But I think that you must listen to casters when developing them or stealth will ruin the game.

 

ps. I found the link that shows why I think the way I do. http://www.ign.com/boards/threads/archer-crit-shot-is-opd-ss-inside.250236730/

I healed Mistwraith and all I got was this stupid tee-shirt!

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