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Camelot Unchained

Camelot Unchained 

General Discussion  » Why kickstarter?

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335 posts found
  laokoko

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/14/09
Posts: 1845

2/15/13 3:42:35 AM#61
Originally posted by strangiato2112
Originally posted by tom_gore

 

CU is supposed to be a PvP-centered, niche MMO. Why would any publisher want to touch that when they don't even try for a multi-million ROI?

 

 

Because the investment is significantly smaller, DAoC has a great reputation, and PvP-centric MMOs done right can lead to success (EvE).  there is definitely a demand for a DAoC successor.

 

Ok read the my previous post.  EIther many things you say don't make alot of sense, or I'm totally clueless.

  Galadourn

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/06/08
Posts: 1043

2/15/13 3:46:55 AM#62
Originally posted by strangiato2112
Originally posted by Galadourn
Originally posted by strangiato2112
Originally posted by Galadourn

 

MJ has decided that he wants to be held accountable to the players who will play and support the game, 

 

Kickstarter you are held accountable to no one.

 

I'm not referring to legal accountability, I'm referring to design decisions.

Still not seeing the accountability.  Its not like the money can be pulled back.

you're still referring to the legal aspect. An investor in any investment can't pull his money back either, unless he either finds someone to sell his shares to OR has a specific such term in the shareholder's agreement contract.

http://kck.st/Xo38HT

  Origin1983

Novice Member

Joined: 2/14/13
Posts: 3

2/15/13 4:01:14 AM#63

I don't understand the discussion. If you think that it is to risky for you don't support it.

It's really that easy. Mark has decided to use Kickstarter over a big publisher, so he can publish and make the game he wants.

 

Let me guess you still don't understand it?

  strangiato2112

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 9/21/12
Posts: 1566

 
OP  2/15/13 4:08:29 AM#64
Originally posted by laokoko

Since I'm totally clueless on the financial aspect of mmorpg.  Can you explain me the option 2 and 3 example?

Trion is a western publisher of Archage.  But they don't fund the game at all.  All they do is take a completed game, maybe do some translation and sell it to the western audience. 

And isn't funcom a public trading company? They get most of their fund through the public people buying shares of the company. 

So I'm not sure how the case of Camelot Unchain is related to those example.

And I don't understand how company raise funds for their game.  Do they "loan" money, or do they find "partner/shareholder" for it.

Since you sound like an expert in this topic, can you explain?

Publishing is a seperate concept from funding.   However, a publishing deal can be a source of funding.

There are two main parts to launching and running a game:  Developing and Publishing.  Developing is actually maing the game.  Publishing is making the game accessible to the public: sales, marketing, subscription management, often server hosting..that sort of thing.

So ArcheAge is developed by XLGames, but the players gateway to the game will be through Trion.  They are forgoing some of the revenue because they dont want to have to deal with those aspects of the game in the west.

With Funcom, they choose to make the games, and do all the other stuff as well.

Now where funding and publishing can cross paths is if a publisher wants a bigger investment, they can help fund the project in return for a bigger cut of the revenue.  Im pretty sure this is what went down between Microsoft and Sigil.  And when Microsoft ended the deal, Sigil went to SoE as a publisher only.  And when Sigil ran out of money SoE bought them instead of funding them and Vanguard became an SoE game.

 

And different companys use different techniques for funding.  

  strangiato2112

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 9/21/12
Posts: 1566

 
OP  2/15/13 4:14:24 AM#65
Originally posted by Galadourn
Originally posted by strangiato2112
Originally posted by Galadourn
Originally posted by strangiato2112
Originally posted by Galadourn

 

MJ has decided that he wants to be held accountable to the players who will play and support the game, 

 

Kickstarter you are held accountable to no one.

 

I'm not referring to legal accountability, I'm referring to design decisions.

Still not seeing the accountability.  Its not like the money can be pulled back.

you're still referring to the legal aspect. An investor in any investment can't pull his money back either, unless he either finds someone to sell his shares to OR has a specific such term in the shareholder's agreement contract.

and you are just referring to some moral accountability, not any real accountability.   The players donate the money.  Once this happens, exactly how is Jacobs accountable to them?  In theory every developer is accountable to the players to keep the revenue coming, but we all know how that can turn out.

  tom_gore

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/27/09
Posts: 1789

2/15/13 4:16:48 AM#66
Originally posted by strangiato2112
Originally posted by tom_gore

 

CU is supposed to be a PvP-centered, niche MMO. Why would any publisher want to touch that when they don't even try for a multi-million ROI?

 

 

Because the investment is significantly smaller, DAoC has a great reputation, and PvP-centric MMOs done right can lead to success (EvE).  there is definitely a demand for a DAoC successor.

 

Do you have any statistics or hard evidence to back that claim?

WAR was supposed to be the "DAoC successor", but the suits that financed that game wanted to go for a more WoW-like experience with two factions, battlegrounds, lots of quests n' stuff. Alas, it failed.

If there would "definitely" be a demand for a DAoC successor, the investors would have funded the development of such a game already. As it appears, your "definitely" is not that definite after all. Professional investors mostly care about the return of investment. They are not interested in "long term projects that might be slightly profitable". They aim to get the maximum ROI in the minimum period of time.

That's why Mark is gauging real demand for a DAoC successor with KS. It's the ultimate poll, where you are asked to put your money where your mouth is. If he meets the goal, he has not only proven that the demand really exists, he has also got a bunch of money he does not have to get from an inevitably more ROI-centered source.

  chase17tn

Novice Member

Joined: 11/08/06
Posts: 99

Waiting for the xbox 360 vr of champions online.

2/15/13 4:22:36 AM#67
Love when ppl who dont make videogames say things like its easy to get funded when they dont really know if it is or not.


made by nonny
and

made by Braggi

thanks both u guys

  strangiato2112

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 9/21/12
Posts: 1566

 
OP  2/15/13 4:22:40 AM#68
Originally posted by Origin1983

I don't understand the discussion. If you think that it is to risky for you don't support it.

It's really that easy. Mark has decided to use Kickstarter over a big publisher, so he can publish and make the game he wants.

 

Let me guess you still don't understand it?

Why do people keep bringing up publisher?  

funding =/= publisher

funding =/= inability to self publish

Trion got funding. they self published.  WHen Funcom was still a private company with Anarchy Online, they got funding, they self published.  Star Vault got funding, they self published Mortal Online.

  chase17tn

Novice Member

Joined: 11/08/06
Posts: 99

Waiting for the xbox 360 vr of champions online.

2/15/13 4:26:23 AM#69
They wanna really get alot of players make it cross plateform xbox 360 and pc and that would work out in there favor we need mmorpg's on xbox and dont start saying 360 cant handle it mmorpgs have been on console since dreamcast and ps2 days.


made by nonny
and

made by Braggi

thanks both u guys

  Voiidiin

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/11
Posts: 716

Soylent green is made from PEOPLE

2/15/13 4:26:56 AM#70

 After reading all the replies to this thread i found one thing nagging at the back of my mind... OP why do you care so much to basically reply to almost any detractor of your opinion ? If there is a reply and it is not inline with what you feel is how a game should be funded you have been on point telling us how we are wrong.

I do not understand why you are against me spending my money supporting a games development through Kickstarter.

Are you oppossed to CU being made?

Do you have a personal axe to grind with Mark Jacobs ?

Did Kickstarter do some egregious act against you personally ?

I just do not see how players funding a game through an alternate form opposite to that of the more traditional way most games in the past have been funded, is a bad thing. Clearly Mark Jacobs has seen how past funding practices have affected the outcome of his games, and clearly he wants control of the game he is now going to create under his control and not some others who feel things need to dillute his original vision.

So if you could please make me understand why you feel the overly strong reaction to others who differ from your opinion on how games should be funded, i would appreciate it a lot. 

Lolipops !

  strangiato2112

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 9/21/12
Posts: 1566

 
OP  2/15/13 4:28:23 AM#71
Originally posted by tom_gore
Originally posted by strangiato2112
Originally posted by tom_gore

 

CU is supposed to be a PvP-centered, niche MMO. Why would any publisher want to touch that when they don't even try for a multi-million ROI?

 

 

Because the investment is significantly smaller, DAoC has a great reputation, and PvP-centric MMOs done right can lead to success (EvE).  there is definitely a demand for a DAoC successor.

 

Do you have any statistics or hard evidence to back that claim?

WAR was supposed to be the "DAoC successor", but the suits that financed that game wanted to go for a more WoW-like experience with two factions, battlegrounds, lots of quests n' stuff. Alas, it failed.

If there would "definitely" be a demand for a DAoC successor, the investors would have funded the development of such a game already. As it appears, your "definitely" is not that definite after all. Professional investors mostly care about the return of investment. They are not interested in "long term projects that might be slightly profitable". They aim to get the maximum ROI in the minimum period of time.

That's why Mark is gauging real demand for a DAoC successor with KS. It's the ultimate poll, where you are asked to put your money where your mouth is. If he meets the goal, he has not only proven that the demand really exists, he has also got a bunch of money he does not have to get from an inevitably more ROI-centered source.

Investors can be simple loans.  They don't care how well the game does, as long as they get their payments.  ROI is set regardless of game performance.

WAR and GW2 show that there is demand.  Games like MO and DF show that funding for niche PvP games can be gotten, and full loot PvP is a niche of a niche.

  strangiato2112

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 9/21/12
Posts: 1566

 
OP  2/15/13 4:40:57 AM#72
Originally posted by Voiidiin

 Clearly Mark Jacobs has seen how past funding practices have affected the outcome of his games

WAR's failure to become the #2 game on the market can be attributed to funding practices, maybe (but highly doubtful).  WAR's failure to maintain 250k+ subscribers (historically successful number of subscribers) is due to poor handling of the game, which certainly had potential.

So if you could please make me understand why you feel the overly strong reaction to others who differ from your opinion on how games should be funded, i would appreciate it a lot. 

Overly strong?  Its a discussion.  No one is being flamed and I have never told people not to donate.   Its really turned into a general discussion on MMORPG kickstarting and isnt about CU in particular.

  Voiidiin

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/11
Posts: 716

Soylent green is made from PEOPLE

2/15/13 4:48:59 AM#73
Originally posted by strangiato2112
Originally posted by Voiidiin

 Clearly Mark Jacobs has seen how past funding practices have affected the outcome of his games

WAR's failure to become the #2 game on the market can be attributed to funding practices, maybe (but highly doubtful).  WAR's failure to maintain 250k+ subscribers (historically successful number of subscribers) is due to poor handling of the game, which certainly had potential.

So if you could please make me understand why you feel the overly strong reaction to others who differ from your opinion on how games should be funded, i would appreciate it a lot. 

Overly strong?  Its a discussion.  No one is being flamed and I have never told people not to donate.   Its really turned into a general discussion on MMORPG kickstarting and isnt about CU in particular.

 

Hmm, while i will take your word that, that is your primary intention, you really do come across as someone who is bitter about Kickstarter funding, and with your comment above about WAR, leads me to believe you might have a personal axe to grind with Mark Jacobs, i say this because this subject should have been talked about in the general discussion overall and not in the CU general discussion.

Not sure why it was important enough to ask this in the CU general discussion, but it looks like a bias against Mark Jacobs and CU.

Lolipops !

  Omnifish

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/16/11
Posts: 586

I'll kick your a**e so hard, you could build a swimming pool in the footprint!

2/15/13 5:26:50 AM#74
Originally posted by strangiato2112
Originally posted by Raagnarz
Originally posted by strangiato2112

A big name in the industry wanting to make a successor to one of the insutry's big names...and he is resorting to public funding?

It doesn't compute.  If he wanted to make a low budget MMO he should have no problem securing funding, and the freedom to make the game he wanted to make.

But instead he is choosing to take advantage of the public, using the Camelot name to secure free capital he doesnt need to pay back.  The whole thing seems off to me.

 

Just consider: If you use borrowed money, you have incentive to succeed.  If you use free money, then it doesnt matter, you dont have to pay anyone back.

 

Kickstarter for a startup company of unknown developers is one thing.  For a big name person developing a big name game though...It doesnt add up.

First Mark is a big name in game development history, but his new company is not. He is putting money into CU if the KS goal is hit. He is using KS to judge player interest. Think of it as a straw poll. If the public proves they want the game 60% or more of the total money will come from Mark and his other investors. If KS goal doesn't get reached then it will not be made because the public had shown there isn't enough interest.

Trion was able to get MAJOR funding for a startup company.  

Its a backwards way of deciding to make a game or not.  Of course there is massive demand for a successor to DAoC.  He doesn't need kickstarter to determine that.  Its if people are willing (or gullibe enough) to donate some risk free, free capital to him.  If he cant get enough handouts, he wont make the game.

Its a major red flag.  if he *really* wanted to make CU, he would make CU.

I think this is a consequence of games development, or more specifically MMOs, being too much of a risk for investors so now players are expected to foot the bill.

I don't know how many thousands/millions some groups lost on Hellgate: London, WAR, Tabula Rasa, APB, Auto Assault, the list goes on.  If I was managing a hedge fund I wouldn't touch MMO development with a bargepole, it's far too unpredictable for accountants to judge how it'll do.  More then likely you'll lose money, the days of the boom investmentwise in this market are over.

Five years ago, Jacobs probably could get the funding he needed from private sources.  Nowadays people like him are just looking for new backers: us.  

I'm not a fan of Kickstarter, it exploits fan willingness to believe and is too much of a risk with little guarantee.  As a gamer I like to buy and play games, not be involved in the financing as well. Funding for a project works on the principle of key stage target meeting and a whole host of other liabilities.  There's none of this with just handing money over to hope someone develops their ideas.  

 I've seen investment portfolios presentations before and boy if you think your disapointed when your next big MMO doesn't live up to your standards, you should see the anger from those suckers who dumped millions into funding it.

This looks like a job for....The Riviera Kid!

  Marcus-

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/28/06
Posts: 967

2/15/13 5:28:20 AM#75
Originally posted by strangiato2112
Originally posted by tom_gore
Originally posted by strangiato2112
Originally posted by tom_gore

 

CU is supposed to be a PvP-centered, niche MMO. Why would any publisher want to touch that when they don't even try for a multi-million ROI?

 

 

Because the investment is significantly smaller, DAoC has a great reputation, and PvP-centric MMOs done right can lead to success (EvE).  there is definitely a demand for a DAoC successor.

 

Do you have any statistics or hard evidence to back that claim?

WAR was supposed to be the "DAoC successor", but the suits that financed that game wanted to go for a more WoW-like experience with two factions, battlegrounds, lots of quests n' stuff. Alas, it failed.

If there would "definitely" be a demand for a DAoC successor, the investors would have funded the development of such a game already. As it appears, your "definitely" is not that definite after all. Professional investors mostly care about the return of investment. They are not interested in "long term projects that might be slightly profitable". They aim to get the maximum ROI in the minimum period of time.

That's why Mark is gauging real demand for a DAoC successor with KS. It's the ultimate poll, where you are asked to put your money where your mouth is. If he meets the goal, he has not only proven that the demand really exists, he has also got a bunch of money he does not have to get from an inevitably more ROI-centered source.

Investors can be simple loans.  They don't care how well the game does, as long as they get their payments.  ROI is set regardless of game performance.

WAR and GW2 show that there is demand.  Games like MO and DF show that funding for niche PvP games can be gotten, and full loot PvP is a niche of a niche.

 Strangiato, i'd like you to meet the state of Rhode island....

  Eyrothath

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/01/08
Posts: 198

2/15/13 5:38:18 AM#76
Originally posted by strangiato2112
Originally posted by CluckingChicken

Wanna know the wonderful secret about Kickstarter?

 

If it's something you don't support... are you still with me on this?

 

...

 

You don't have to support it!

 

Golly gee! Who could've imagined?

 

I would take Kickstarter over having a publisher ANY day. You know that feeling when you see a really interesting MMO in development, only to see EA is publishing it? It's akin to the feeling you get when drowning in a pool of someone's vomit. Or getting attacked by a swarm of bees. ...Bees that are covered in someone's vomit.

Publisher =/= financial backing.  Trion is the publisher of ArcheAge, but they havent funded devleopment.  I dont think EA currently publishes any MMORPGs it doesnt own.  It owns Mythic, Origin and Bioware.  

The Secret World

  Storm_Fireblade

Novice Member

Joined: 2/11/13
Posts: 156

2/15/13 5:40:52 AM#77

At first I wasn´t really fond of the concept of kickstarting any game at all. In fact, I didn´t back anything up to now. But the market is changing and even though there might be other possibilites to raise funds for the developement, I tried to do one thing: Think about being in Marks place instead and how I would choose my path.

The outcome was quite easy: It would be a similar way from his standpoint. I might not liked the idea of giving money for a vision at first, but how could I critisize it, if I can see it be reasonable from another point of view?

A kickstart is in itself a marketing research campaign, that raises money. Sounds nice to me, if I tried to fund my game. Mark did follow different paths in the past and he was part of the developementprocess of a game, that had a lot of financial backup. It didn´t work out - so now he want´s to try another thing. Who am I to judge him? No one is forcing me to support it.

Sure, its sort of a gamble for us to invest money in it. But since when is gambling something new? People play in the lottery all the time, hoping to get some results for their money. For me its just like that here. Its up to me, whether or not I back this game. If I do though, I might get something valuable in return. Becoming part of the whole process from scratch, maybe getting the game for free and some playtime or whatever. It will give me something in return I might have spent money on later anyway. But with backing the game I help to realize it first and I get the possiblity to choose a bigger investment with a bigger outcome (alpha access or whatever). Sure, with some risks - but those risks I do know, just like I know how bad the odds are to win the lottery. I´ll play anyway from time to time.

I´ve never been a fan of publishers meddling with the affairs of the game design. I´ve never been a fan of triple AAA blockbusters either. Its just impossible to satisfy everyone at once. So if Mark is willing to invest a lot of his own money, but wants to check the market first - I´m fine with that.

It all comes down to trust. If you don´t believe in this project, if you don´t trust Mark and his team to deliver. Well, then don´t back the game. Sure, people like me might get burned for their trust, but that is something - since I don´t believe in it - I´ll deal with, if it comes to that.

Camelot Unchained Fanpage
https://simply-gaming.com/camelot/

  Raagnarz

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/13/12
Posts: 188

2/15/13 5:49:41 AM#78
Originally posted by Storm_Fireblade

At first I wasn´t really fond of the concept of kickstarting any game at all. In fact, I didn´t back anything up to now. But the market is changing and even though there might be other possibilites to raise funds for the developement, I tried to do one thing: Think about being in Marks place instead and how I would choose my path.

The outcome was quite easy: It would be a similar way from his standpoint. I might not liked the idea of giving money for a vision at first, but how could I critisize it, if I can see it be reasonable from another point of view?

A kickstart is in itself a marketing research campaign, that raises money. Sounds nice to me, if I tried to fund my game. Mark did follow different paths in the past and he was part of the developementprocess of a game, that had a lot of financial backup. It didn´t work out - so now he want´s to try another thing. Who am I to judge him? No one is forcing me to support it.

Sure, its sort of a gamble for us to invest money in it. But since when is gambling something new? People play in the lottery all the time, hoping to get some results for their money. For me its just like that here. Its up to me, whether or not I back this game. If I do though, I might get something valuable in return. Becoming part of the whole process from scratch, maybe getting the game for free and some playtime or whatever. It will give me something in return I might have spent money on later anyway. But with backing the game I help to realize it first and I get the possiblity to choose a bigger investment with a bigger outcome (alpha access or whatever). Sure, with some risks - but those risks I do know, just like I know how bad the odds are to win the lottery. I´ll play anyway from time to time.

I´ve never been a fan of publishers meddling with the affairs of the game design. I´ve never been a fan of triple AAA blockbusters either. Its just impossible to satisfy everyone at once. So if Mark is willing to invest a lot of his own money, but wants to check the market first - I´m fine with that.

It all comes down to trust. If you don´t believe in this project, if you don´t trust Mark and his team to deliver. Well, then don´t back the game. Sure, people like me might get burned for their trust, but that is something - since I don´t believe in it - I´ll deal with, if it comes to that.

And perhaps most importantly, whether you liked his previous games or not, the man has created/launched 2 big games that are still running today. He's started a couple of companies from scratch as well and sold one of them. From a business standpoint he's not an idiot nor is he shady.  He's proven he can create a game and launch it. I would say thats a pedigree that a very small percentage of KS funded games have.

  strangiato2112

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 9/21/12
Posts: 1566

 
OP  2/15/13 10:43:16 AM#79
Originally posted by Marcus-
  ROI is set regardless of game performance.

 

 Strangiato, i'd like you to meet the state of Rhode island....

And the state of RI suffered from the default risk of the investment.

If Copernicus performed 3 times as well as WoW or barely treaded water, RI would have received the exact same money.  that is what I mean by RoI being set: its built into the loan terms.

The big risk with an MMORPG loan is the default risk.  I would imagine the rates are pretty high because of that.  

  Marcus-

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/28/06
Posts: 967

2/15/13 11:44:08 AM#80
Originally posted by strangiato2112
Originally posted by Marcus-
  ROI is set regardless of game performance.

 

 Strangiato, i'd like you to meet the state of Rhode island....

And the state of RI suffered from the default risk of the investment.

If Copernicus performed 3 times as well as WoW or barely treaded water, RI would have received the exact same money.  that is what I mean by RoI being set: its built into the loan terms.

The big risk with an MMORPG loan is the default risk.  I would imagine the rates are pretty high because of that.  

 And if the game doesn't barely tread water?

 

Lets be honest here, you have a guy looking for a lot of money that said he's going after a niche' market, in a pretty volatile genre'. A guy who in his own words said "some of the ideas for this game are gonna piss off  some players and we're ready to do that" . A guy, for all the hype and hoopla, well his last MMO didn't exactly blow the doors off the MMO market (with the same premise, RvR!). A guy who i'm not even sure he himself knows if theres enough interest in this type of niche' game.

 

Add that to the recent fiasco with Shilling, the investments in TOR, SOE ventures, the rarity of pvp-centric MMOs "done right", well, i dunno, but if i had a large sum of money, the last place i would go is the MMO market, but maybe thats why i don't have large sums of money 

 

Will i toss a few bucks in the hopes he can get this off the ground? Sure, its the type of game i would like to play.

 

 

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