Originally posted by Crazyhorsek

My god... why? Because DAoC lived from its players from day 1 and SWG lived under the STAR WARS brand. (yes thats the only reason why SWG had the same numbers of DAoC and no, SWG is not more TES than DAoC. Only a very narrow view would come up with this kind of argument)

 My just look at all the examples in that refute. I am totally blown away by your vast intellect. How could I ever come back from such a thrashing to the ideas in my post.

SWG:  Open world, no zones, no forced factions, no race limtations per faction, no forced class structures.

DaoC: Closed world, zones, forced faction, race limitations per faction, forced classes

TES: Open world, no zones, no forced factions, no race limitations per faction, no forced class structures.

What does TES and DoaC have in common? Elves and dwarves oh my!

Originally posted by jtcgs

Originally posted by Crazyhorsek

My god... why? Because DAoC lived from its players from day 1 and SWG lived under the STAR WARS brand. (yes thats the only reason why SWG had the same numbers of DAoC and no, SWG is not more TES than DAoC. Only a very narrow view would come up with this kind of argument)

 My just look at all the examples in that refute. I am totally blown away by your vast intellect. How could I ever come back from such a thrashing to the ideas in my post.

SWG:  Open world, no zones, no forced factions, no race limtations per faction, no forced class structures.

DaoC: Closed world, zones, forced faction, race limitations per faction, forced classes

TES: Open world, no zones, no forced factions, no race limitations per faction, no forced class structures.

What does TES and DoaC have in common? Elves and dwarves oh my!

Er,Wha? You realize Dwemer are eleves as well right?

Originally posted by Crazyhorsek

Originally posted by XAPGames

I don't know that this is in the design, but what I expect is that an LFG tool will provide a no-risk teleport into a dungeon making dungeon runs viable for level cap players looking to avoid PVP.  I don't expect PVEers to be forced into PVP.

If those dungeos are located in zones that are controlled by the enemy, theres no fast travel, no LFG, nothing... you'll have to risk traveling there - its the PvP zone, its also persistant so... no way around - risk and travel, or... stay behind your realm's walls.

Interesting info, thanks.  I'm curious to see how this gets accepted by the playerbase.

Originally posted by Distopia

Originally posted by jtcgs

Originally posted by Crazyhorsek

My god... why? Because DAoC lived from its players from day 1 and SWG lived under the STAR WARS brand. (yes thats the only reason why SWG had the same numbers of DAoC and no, SWG is not more TES than DAoC. Only a very narrow view would come up with this kind of argument)

 My just look at all the examples in that refute. I am totally blown away by your vast intellect. How could I ever come back from such a thrashing to the ideas in my post.

SWG:  Open world, no zones, no forced factions, no race limtations per faction, no forced class structures.

DaoC: Closed world, zones, forced faction, race limitations per faction, forced classes

TES: Open world, no zones, no forced factions, no race limitations per faction, no forced class structures.

What does TES and DoaC have in common? Elves and dwarves oh my!

Er,Wha? You realize Dwemer are eleves as well right?

 Er, Wha? You realize Elves are elves right? and DaoC can have every race in TES...the gameplay doesnt come close to TES and gameplay is the CORE of the game.

They can make a TES racing game with all the races driving to every city in TES...doesnt mean its just like TES.

Originally posted by jtcgs

Originally posted by Distopia

What does TES and DoaC have in common? Elves and dwarves oh my!

Er,Wha? You realize Dwemer are eleves as well right?

 Er, Wha? You realize Elves are elves right? and DaoC can have every race in TES...the gameplay doesnt come close to TES and gameplay is the CORE of the game.

They can make a TES racing game with all the races driving to every city in TES...doesnt mean its just like TES.

Who said anything about ESO capturing the experience of a TES game? I'm just a little surprised someone who's been arguing on behalf of TES would write that line above.

Originally posted by Distopia

Who said anything about ESO capturing the experience of a TES game?

Originally posted by Distopia

Originally posted by jtcgs

Originally posted by Crazyhorsek

My god... why? Because DAoC lived from its players from day 1 and SWG lived under the STAR WARS brand. (yes thats the only reason why SWG had the same numbers of DAoC and no, SWG is not more TES than DAoC. Only a very narrow view would come up with this kind of argument)

 My just look at all the examples in that refute. I am totally blown away by your vast intellect. How could I ever come back from such a thrashing to the ideas in my post.

SWG:  Open world, no zones, no forced factions, no race limtations per faction, no forced class structures.

DaoC: Closed world, zones, forced faction, race limitations per faction, forced classes

TES: Open world, no zones, no forced factions, no race limitations per faction, no forced class structures.

What does TES and DoaC have in common? Elves and dwarves oh my!

Er,Wha? You realize Dwemer are eleves as well right?

 Did you even read what you were replying to? Two people talking and points being made that one is more TES than the other. In order for one to be closer to it than the other, the entire game must be looked at and not just graphics and names...that is the second time in a row you replied without reading. First, stating Dwemer were elves while skipping the word ELVES in my post to highlight DWARVES.

Originally posted by jtcgs

 Did you even read what you were replying to? Two people talking and points being made that one is more TES than the other. In order for one to be closer to it than the other, the entire game must be looked at and not just graphics and names...that is the second time in a row you replied without reading. First, stating Dwemer were elves while skipping the word ELVES in my post to highlight DWARVES.

I have no dog in the race between you and the guy you were replying to. I actually agree with you that SWG was one of the closest experiences you could find in comparison to a TES like game.

Still doesn't change that it looked like you were implying TES has "elves and dwarves". Which is simply redundant (and seemed to show a lack of TES knowledge). On top of that, your original reply to me had nothing to do with what I said, you were still arguing with that other guy, well that's what it looked like to me.

Anyway continue complaining about Carebears.

OP wrote:

[...] Depending on how big the risk is, I think a lot of MMO players won't like that at all. It will cost TESO a lot of "carebearish" players.

TESO seems to rather cater former hardcore Darkfall/DAoC players than TES players and PvE oriented type of players.

OMG, please, by all means. I am so sick and tired of the mainstream "please-don't-hurt-me' and "death-is-meaningless-otherwise-it-might-hurt" attitude in ALL contemporary MMO - I don't call them RPGs.

This might be a reason for me to check out TESO.

Originally posted by Findariel
Whether Cyrodiil is 1.5 times or 6 times as big as the 1-50 levelling areas - it still means that most of the endgame content will be in a "world PvP" area. Unless you'll have flying mounts or insta-travel "waypoints" that get you to your factions "safe area" or fortress/outpost within Cyrodiil that means that dungeon runners will have to travel through more or less dangerous areas with the chance of getting killed by other players. Be it individuals or roaming zergs or groups that camp certain passages or dungeon entrances to prevent players from opposing factions from entering.

Depending on how big the risk is, I think a lot of MMO players won't like that at all. It will cost TESO a lot of "carebearish" players.

TESO seems to rather cater former hardcore Darkfall/DAoC players than TES players and PvE oriented type of players.

Is it that bad? I mean it's a game. You wont be hurt IRL.

edit- risk?!? RISK?@!

Originally posted by Findariel
Whether Cyrodiil is 1.5 times or 6 times as big as the 1-50 levelling areas - it still means that most of the endgame content will be in a "world PvP" area. Unless you'll have flying mounts or insta-travel "waypoints" that get you to your factions "safe area" or fortress/outpost within Cyrodiil that means that dungeon runners will have to travel through more or less dangerous areas with the chance of getting killed by other players. Be it individuals or roaming zergs or groups that camp certain passages or dungeon entrances to prevent players from opposing factions from entering.

Depending on how big the risk is, I think a lot of MMO players won't like that at all. It will cost TESO a lot of "carebearish" players.

TESO seems to rather cater former hardcore Darkfall/DAoC players than TES players and PvE oriented type of players.

This by far is one of the most ignorant posts about a game that hasn't even released into beta yet. I will wait my time and actually read information about the game before I make comments about it's survival and impact in the MMO world.

 Zenimax and Bethesda will not leave the carebear players high and dry. If anything what they have made statements about the game's content shows that they will have much in the game for non-pvp players and non-hardcore players. In the future maybe refrain from such rash statements until there is more information out and a few betas.

Originally posted by Distopia

Originally posted by jtcgs

 Did you even read what you were replying to? Two people talking and points being made that one is more TES than the other. In order for one to be closer to it than the other, the entire game must be looked at and not just graphics and names...that is the second time in a row you replied without reading. First, stating Dwemer were elves while skipping the word ELVES in my post to highlight DWARVES.

Still doesn't change that it looked like you were implying TES has "elves and dwarves". Which is simply redundant

 Unless you have the ability to comprehend what you are reading...I SAID WHAT DOES TES AND DAOC HAVE IN COMMON? ELVES AND DWARVES? <-- note the question mark?

And that was AFTER apparently stating the things you now say you agree with. Comprehension, the ability to understand..that what you replied to just so happens to go hand in hand with what came before it to FORM A COMPLETE THOUGHT

I'm actually hoping that all entrances to end game dungeons are in contested territory and far from the nearest fast travel node, the inherent danger and reward for getting to the dungeons improves the overall experience imo, since rewards you had to fight hard for are more meaningful and getting them becomes more memorable. It also goes a long way in banding players together and improving realm pride.

Some of the best times I've had in early UO were all the huge pk fights outside dungeon entrances, it wasn't a question of carebear vs hardcore in the early mmos, those terms didn't exist and no one cared, the game was set up a certain way and you had to learn to deal with it, it's what made them so much fun.

I really wish devs would stop listening to the players so much and try to please everyone, they should go back to making games according to their plan, and having the players adjust, it leads to some interesting emergent gameplay and querky tactics players employ to defeat some gameplay elements they don't care for too much, and makes games more interesting in general.

There's way too many players these days that demand that games completely cater to their play style, and scream bloody murder at any sign of inconvenience, it has progressively made games easier, less complex and downright boring, devoid of any kind of meaningful risk or excitement, time for the devs to grow a pair and make games they want to make, even the "carebear" players might be surprised to learn they actually enjoy a bit of a challange instead of the ez mode whack-a-mole, no risk/all instant reward games being mass produced lately.

Originally posted by jtcgs

Originally posted by Crazyhorsek

My god... why? Because DAoC lived from its players from day 1 and SWG lived under the STAR WARS brand. (yes thats the only reason why SWG had the same numbers of DAoC and no, SWG is not more TES than DAoC. Only a very narrow view would come up with this kind of argument)

 My just look at all the examples in that refute. I am totally blown away by your vast intellect. How could I ever come back from such a thrashing to the ideas in my post.

SWG:  Open world, no zones, no forced factions, no race limtations per faction, no forced class structures.

DaoC: Closed world, zones, forced faction, race limitations per faction, forced classes

TES: Open world, no zones, no forced factions, no race limitations per faction, no forced class structures.

What does TES and DoaC have in common? Elves and dwarves oh my!

This is how I see your crap comparison:

SWG: great lore, great ideas, bad implementation, flawed design - crap game - was shut down.

DAoC: great lore, great ideas, great implementation, great design - great game - people still play it.

TES: great lore, great ideas, great implementation, great design, great game - people still play it.

So tell me... again, which have more in common?

SWG in the begining you couldnt even jump... lol know your facts - what are you, trying to talk through the memories of your older brother? No SWG was NOT GOOD. And btw, lots and lots of entire EMPTY wastelands of planets with tiny pockets of whatever is not really my idea of fun. Half an hour on a speeder bike and you'd see nothing, but wasteland - oh wait, a construction! CIVILIZATION... nope, just generators - and another half an hour of empty wasteland. Then it had a fun year as far as I can remember, then it was the CU then NGE and it completely ruined a game that could have (notice - COULD HAVE) been awesome but instead turned into a pile of crap - not that it was ever good, because it wasnt, but it had everything to be good.

And btw it had classes - the difference is you could master all of them (which is rather stupid being a doctor-dancer-pistoleer-swordsman-commando-bountyhunter-architect-ranger-smuggler AND jedi). This really doesnt add anything to the game, nothing you can really call good... so ok, you can be EVERYTHING but... so what? lol... when did quantity was the meaning of quality?

Combat was bad... bad bad bad. I mean... REALLY BAD. It could put you asleep after 10 redbulls and cocaine. The leveling was so dull... so uninspired. I still remember those stupid little creatures outside mos eisley spaceport. I'm sorry... the pve on that game was so bad. And I dont mean <insert random gangnam style mmo> bad, it was... REALLY BAD. Then they came up with jumping. And the jump was WALKING THROUGH THE AIR and then continuing to walk one the ground. Seriously you have no idea what you're talking about.

I only played SWG because of my RP guild which was awesome and kinda watered down the fantastic steaming pile of crap of a game I was playing. Why mention something that had to be shot like a lame horse because of HOW BAD and how much of a failure it was? I rarely call a game a failure, but SWG was an utter failure. SWG is the standard of failure itself - under failure in the dictionary should come "also known as - SWG".

SWG only had players because of its brand - nothing more, nothing less - the universe it was on, being star wars, being able to visit mos eisly etc - but the faction system was CRAP. I was an imperial... and kept seeing these fuckin rebels running around and I couldnt shoot them. Why? I DONT KNOW... but I couldnt. It was all friendly and crap... so much for lore... this is what you are proposing. Great. I'll let Zenimax know how qualified you are to take charge of TESO when your ideas are based on the biggest fail in the history of video games (apart from Rambo II for NES).

I had 2 big disapointments with games SWG (aka failure itself) and WAR - which was just a really really bad game and  considering the awesome lore it has, WAR is the online equivalent of murder.

Considering the time and the circunstances (no franchise, no licence, no company name etc) under which DAoC was released, it was a massive success and it was a trully awesome game. DAoC released in this "post-WoW era" (equivalent to a post apocalyptic nuclear winter where you spent 8 years inside a cave underground eating deep roots) and with a few tweaks here and there would be a monster mmo. And thats what Zenimax is trying to do. Getting a "modern game", capitalizing specially on Skyrim, which the winning formula of Dark Age of Camelot where no, we're not friends, no we can't go to an enemy's land in times of war, yes you'll have very well defined borders, and yes for the PvE-only crowd they're more than safe cause they dont have to worry a bit about being ganked by some asshole or seeing the enemy happily free roaming through their lands, picking flowers and sending /kiss /wave /hug jumping around them ripping them out of their immersion.

BTW... that I know of... TES doesnt have dwarves. Only DAoC has dwarves.

Originally posted by Crazyhorsek

This is how I see your crap comparison:

SWG: great lore, great ideas, bad implementation, flawed design - crap game - was shut down.

DAoC: great lore, great ideas, great implementation, great design - great game - people still play it.

TES: great lore, great ideas, great implementation, great design, great game - people still play it.

So tell me... again, which have more in common?

BTW... that I know of... TES doesnt have dwarves. Only DAoC has dwarves.

Originally posted by jtcgs

Originally posted by Crazyhorsek

This is how I see your crap comparison:

SWG: great lore, great ideas, bad implementation, flawed design - crap game - was shut down.

DAoC: great lore, great ideas, great implementation, great design - great game - people still play it.

TES: great lore, great ideas, great implementation, great design, great game - people still play it.

So tell me... again, which have more in common?

BTW... that I know of... TES doesnt have dwarves. Only DAoC has dwarves.

 yep, if you remove actual gameplay mechanics and core game design and replace them with broad sweeping opinions based on things not related to gameplay...you are correct, DaoC is a lot like TES...then again, so is Super Mario Bros, Zelda, FIFA 2012 and minecraft.

Oh and that ending...no wonder you are showing you have no clue what TES games are like...the Dwemer are a major part of TES lore.

You seem to be missing the point that others have been making over the last page. You said both games have elves and dwarves. TES does not have dwarves. Dwemer are not dwarves, they are subterranian elves.

Granted some were saying it quite convolutedly, hopefully that clears it up for you.

Originally posted by jtcgs

Originally posted by Crazyhorsek

This is how I see your crap comparison:

SWG: great lore, great ideas, bad implementation, flawed design - crap game - was shut down.

DAoC: great lore, great ideas, great implementation, great design - great game - people still play it.

TES: great lore, great ideas, great implementation, great design, great game - people still play it.

So tell me... again, which have more in common?

BTW... that I know of... TES doesnt have dwarves. Only DAoC has dwarves.

 yep, if you remove actual gameplay mechanics and core game design and replace them with broad sweeping opinions based on things not related to gameplay...you are correct, DaoC is a lot like TES...then again, so is Super Mario Bros, Zelda, FIFA 2012 and minecraft.

Oh and that ending...no wonder you are showing you have no clue what TES games are like...the Dwemer are a major part of TES lore.

Dude... where the hell are dwarves in TES? The dwemer are not dwarves you silly boy, they're elves - actually morrowind describes them as deep-elves or something... but anyway, since I actually dont know what morrowind said I'll give you a clue and present it like a modern day test (you know... those kids take now where the answer is already implicit in the question itself):

If you have AltMER - high elves, BosMER - woodelves, dunMER - dark elves,... what exactly you think MER means?

DWARF?

Originally posted by Crazyhorsek

Originally posted by jtcgs

Originally posted by Crazyhorsek

This is how I see your crap comparison:

SWG: great lore, great ideas, bad implementation, flawed design - crap game - was shut down.

DAoC: great lore, great ideas, great implementation, great design - great game - people still play it.

TES: great lore, great ideas, great implementation, great design, great game - people still play it.

So tell me... again, which have more in common?

BTW... that I know of... TES doesnt have dwarves. Only DAoC has dwarves.

 yep, if you remove actual gameplay mechanics and core game design and replace them with broad sweeping opinions based on things not related to gameplay...you are correct, DaoC is a lot like TES...then again, so is Super Mario Bros, Zelda, FIFA 2012 and minecraft.

Oh and that ending...no wonder you are showing you have no clue what TES games are like...the Dwemer are a major part of TES lore.

Dude... where the hell are dwarves in TES? The dwemer are not dwarves you silly boy, they're elves - actually morrowind describes them as deep-elves or something... but anyway, since I actually dont know what morrowind said I'll give you a clue and present it like a modern day test (you know... those kids take now where the answer is already implicit in the question itself):

If you have AltMER - high elves, BosMER - woodelves, dunMER - dark elves,... what exactly you think MER means?

DWARF?

Their Dwmerfs, a dwarf boffed an elf. Duh. Read it in a book somewhere in Tamriel. Seriously though, who the fuck played Redguard..

Originally posted by jtcgs

Originally posted by Crazyhorsek

Yes I do hope that TESO will appeal to Darkfall / DAoC fans (actually DAoC players know how to pvp and like to pve as well) and leave all WoW carebears outside of it - yep thats my most sincere hope regarding TESO.

 DaoC was the first game to try to make PvP for Carebears and seeing as how easy it was to roll over the other realms on the server my guild was on...its blatantly obvious.

People who had their first taste of PvP in DaoC wouldnt know real PvP if they suddenly found themselves at a rez point before they realized WTF just happened to them. DaoC = zerg PvP that requires little skill from the individual and THAT is why guilds from previous PvP games dominated their servers...individual skilled players, playing as a group in a game made to force grouped PvP...worse yet, CC heavy PvP.

DaoC made it all too easy to control everything, get 3-5 skilled PvP vets and watch them stop a large group of carebears that believe they know what PvP is all about while you take your medium sized group and take control of areas that require 50+ mouthbreathers to take.

BTW, anyone targetting players of an old game that never topped 400k players at its peak is just asking for a whole lot of fail unless they go with F2P/B2P right from the start.

When did you start playing DAoC? I don't remember any of this... Then again maybe I am just a mouthbreather...

Originally posted by Findariel
Whether Cyrodiil is 1.5 times or 6 times as big as the 1-50 levelling areas - it still means that most of the endgame content will be in a "world PvP" area. Unless you'll have flying mounts or insta-travel "waypoints" that get you to your factions "safe area" or fortress/outpost within Cyrodiil that means that dungeon runners will have to travel through more or less dangerous areas with the chance of getting killed by other players. Be it individuals or roaming zergs or groups that camp certain passages or dungeon entrances to prevent players from opposing factions from entering.

Depending on how big the risk is, I think a lot of MMO players won't like that at all. It will cost TESO a lot of "carebearish" players.

TESO seems to rather cater former hardcore Darkfall/DAoC players than TES players and PvE oriented type of players.

Get your facts straight before you rant, that's all I have to say.