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Star Wars: The Old Republic

Star Wars: The Old Republic 

General Discussion  » The further dumbing down of Star Wars: The Old Republic: Abusing Travelers, Treating customers like crap .. same ol' same ol'

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131 posts found
  ImperialSun

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/05/12
Posts: 231

2/14/13 8:08:13 AM#81
Originally posted by Karteli

To combat the horrible load times, developers have stepped in to fix all your worries .. with a minimal fee.

 

Priority Transport

Feb 12, 2013

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=5847876

 

Hi everyone,

With Game Update 1.7, we introduced the new Legacy Character Perk, Priority Transport: Personal Starship. This allows players to quickly shuttle to their personal starships. This ability normally has a 24 hr cooldown, and players have the option to purchase Legacy Global Unlocks to reduce this cooldown.

 

So EA has realized that their game / graphics engine is horrible and they now need a way to get players across zones without all the load screens (if you have money).  So now you can insta-teleport to your ship.  GREAT FIX.  I feel my immersion steaming ..

 

ARE YOU KIDDING ME, EA?  Oh my.  I can now improve flaws in the game by spending real money.  I  .. am  .. without any further words, I just don't know what else to say.  Cartel Market :( ;( =(

 

 

Lol...not sure if serious?

 

Players gripe about the amount of travelling / load screens between location / fleet / ship so EA/BW provide a solution to that complaint via the legacy. And still...the usual suspects try to spin it in order to complain. EA/BW certainly make things difficult for themselves on occasion however they are truly damned if they do and damned if they don't...

 

You guys...really scraping the bottom of the barrel to bash SWTOR these days aren't you? :)

 

Driz

  ImperialSun

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/05/12
Posts: 231

2/14/13 8:09:33 AM#82
Originally posted by Karteli
Originally posted by Sovrath

I don't think it has anything to do with them realzing their game engine is bad (or whatever).

I think it has to do with "some players like to get to where they want to be FAST so let's make money off of this."

Zone loads can take up to several minutes though, in my experience.  So if someone can eliminate the load from travel to spaceship hub to hanger to airlock to spaceship, I'd say this charge (costing $$) is abusive.

 

Not to mention this is the first step to paying for a teleport wherever you would like to go in the galaxy, with just 1 load screen, instead of 5.

 

AND ... the cooldown can be reduced with real-money.  Real-money is a big no-no.  SWTOR is advertised as a F2P game, but presented in the last investor call as a P2P?  EA is walking on thin ice, and fans will see through the thin ice and not go near them.

 

Paying for basic functionality in a F2P is not cool.

And you might have a point if SWTOR was a F2P game...luckily it's a P2P/Hybrid with a F2P option so all is well in the world :)

 

Driz

  ImperialSun

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/05/12
Posts: 231

2/14/13 8:16:45 AM#83
Originally posted by Karteli
Originally posted by Slappy1
Originally posted by huskie77
I can understand your frustration but I think you are twisting your view of this update to suit your already deeply held views on this game. Real money is not a no-no. It's what allows them to provide a service to those who desire it in exchange for the revenue that allows them to make enough profit to everyone employed and let free players leech. Everything serves a purpose and nobody get's hurt.

Agree^^ and also I've never experienced a load screen anywhere near minute's in length.Load time's are comparable to to many I saw in other game's.

It's a convenience,not a gamebreaking must buy.

I'd rather have a seemless Star Wars universe .. you know, worthy of Star Wars?  and all the innovation that comes with the title ...

 

Load screens were great in EverQuest .. but that was 1999.  Now we pay to avoid load screens, see whats wrong?

Walking was great back in the day...but that was 1900. Now we pay to get the bus or take a cab...see what I did there?

 

Oh and load screens are 1999? Errr...GW2 and several other games released recently would like a word with you :)

 

Driz

  bfpiercelk

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/28/06
Posts: 48

2/14/13 8:17:35 AM#84
Originally posted by superniceguy
Originally posted by bfpiercelk
Originally posted by superniceguy

SWG added in faster travel by reducing shuttle times, vehicles, ITVs, Group pickups and perks with cities / factions from leaderboard wins. But at least they did not charge people for it, and you got the perks from PLAYING the game.

People moaned in SWG when travel times got faster, but it is a choice. You can still explore and travel across the planets if you prefer, or wait 10 mins for a shuttle, but I suppose what made the 10 min wait worth it was that players used to socialise while waiting, and made the 10 mins go by quick, but standing there for 10 mins all by yourself is not great.

 

 

Rose colored glasses much? It took SOE YEARS to implement many of the travel speed improvements to SWG. Also you got the perks for paying, since EVERYBODY paid in order to play. Money pays developers and designers to develop and design.

Last I checked shuttles, vehicles, ITV's, city perks cost ingame credits and/or ingame TIME to craft and build up (GCW rep grind.) They weren't handed to you just for logging in.

Having to unlock this with legacy through credits is no different.

What is the point in a game if everything is handed to you? That is the point of games, to play, not pay outside a standard fee. Subbers pay with a sub, and F2P pay via shop.  If you are playing F2P then paying for it is fine, although in LOTRO the riding skill is available to you once you reach level 20 if I recall, after doing a quest, or you can buy it from the store at level 5.

SWTOR players pay twice for those who sub. Those who sub have to pay for this too, they do not get it for free.

It took YEARS because they were busy adding many more fun stuff, like player cities, space etc and these things is only a convenience. Many people did not care about 10 mins shuttle waits as people had fun socialsing while waiting, so there was no rush.

Although the Group pick ups were handed to you, but needed 2 to be a group close by to transport a third or more players and ITVs were handed to you in anniversary vet reward plus a ship beacon but there was a ITV where you had to collect parts at several spaceparts which took 5 mins, except the special ones where you could program which one was from Hoth I think, and needed to get tokens, but the city and factional leaderboards  still took ingame TIME to get and not handed to you (and I do not recal using credits to get),  but that is the fun of it, and you do not usually do it specially to get it otherwise it is a grind then and takes away the fun. If you lose the leaderboards then you lose the perks. It is what makes a game a game.  Logging in and spending more money is not fun at all, it makes a game a mall

 

Sweet zombie jesus man. I'm an SWG vet and loved the game (I STILL play it from time to time), but even I have the intelligence to realize the faults in it. You're nothing more than a blind apologist. 

The fact that you had to spend time ingame (MORE THAN 5 minutes I guarantee you with loading screens, which shows just how thick those glasses are.) is what I mentioned in my post, but no no, I'm "wrong" because it's ok because it's a game I like so it's all cool. Fact is you spent credits on the shuttle, or the personal ship to get there. The scale of ingame credit cost is different for sure on a few shuttles flights at least, but really not that big of a deal. If they charged 1 million credits in SWG for the ITV I would have had NO PROBLEM with it because of how easy credits were to make (same as in SWTOR).

Arguing the point any further seems completely moot at this point really, worse than trying to get a conservative to beleive Global Warming is real.

  superniceguy

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/17/07
Posts: 2265

NGE, LOTRO, STO, KOTOR, Lego Star Wars > NGE 2 (SWTOR). SWG>ALL. Above hopefully subject to change.

2/14/13 9:09:55 AM#85
Originally posted by bfpiercelk
Originally posted by superniceguy
Originally posted by bfpiercelk
Originally posted by superniceguy

SWG added in faster travel by reducing shuttle times, vehicles, ITVs, Group pickups and perks with cities / factions from leaderboard wins. But at least they did not charge people for it, and you got the perks from PLAYING the game.

People moaned in SWG when travel times got faster, but it is a choice. You can still explore and travel across the planets if you prefer, or wait 10 mins for a shuttle, but I suppose what made the 10 min wait worth it was that players used to socialise while waiting, and made the 10 mins go by quick, but standing there for 10 mins all by yourself is not great.

 

 

Rose colored glasses much? It took SOE YEARS to implement many of the travel speed improvements to SWG. Also you got the perks for paying, since EVERYBODY paid in order to play. Money pays developers and designers to develop and design.

Last I checked shuttles, vehicles, ITV's, city perks cost ingame credits and/or ingame TIME to craft and build up (GCW rep grind.) They weren't handed to you just for logging in.

Having to unlock this with legacy through credits is no different.

What is the point in a game if everything is handed to you? That is the point of games, to play, not pay outside a standard fee. Subbers pay with a sub, and F2P pay via shop.  If you are playing F2P then paying for it is fine, although in LOTRO the riding skill is available to you once you reach level 20 if I recall, after doing a quest, or you can buy it from the store at level 5.

SWTOR players pay twice for those who sub. Those who sub have to pay for this too, they do not get it for free.

It took YEARS because they were busy adding many more fun stuff, like player cities, space etc and these things is only a convenience. Many people did not care about 10 mins shuttle waits as people had fun socialsing while waiting, so there was no rush.

Although the Group pick ups were handed to you, but needed 2 to be a group close by to transport a third or more players and ITVs were handed to you in anniversary vet reward plus a ship beacon but there was a ITV where you had to collect parts at several spaceparts which took 5 mins, except the special ones where you could program which one was from Hoth I think, and needed to get tokens, but the city and factional leaderboards  still took ingame TIME to get and not handed to you (and I do not recal using credits to get),  but that is the fun of it, and you do not usually do it specially to get it otherwise it is a grind then and takes away the fun. If you lose the leaderboards then you lose the perks. It is what makes a game a game.  Logging in and spending more money is not fun at all, it makes a game a mall

 

Sweet zombie jesus man. I'm an SWG vet and loved the game (I STILL play it from time to time), but even I have the intelligence to realize the faults in it. You're nothing more than a blind apologist. 

The fact that you had to spend time ingame (MORE THAN 5 minutes I guarantee you with loading screens, which shows just how thick those glasses are.) is what I mentioned in my post, but no no, I'm "wrong" because it's ok because it's a game I like so it's all cool. Fact is you spent credits on the shuttle, or the personal ship to get there. The scale of ingame credit cost is different for sure on a few shuttles flights at least, but really not that big of a deal. If they charged 1 million credits in SWG for the ITV I would have had NO PROBLEM with it because of how easy credits were to make (same as in SWTOR).

Arguing the point any further seems completely moot at this point really, worse than trying to get a conservative to beleive Global Warming is real.

It actually cost ZERO credits to use your own ship to travel between planets. For a vet you do not seem to know much about SWG. Even 2 other posters corrected you with the ITV.

  snapfusion

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/17/11
Posts: 976

2/14/13 9:33:13 AM#86
Originally posted by Sovrath

I don't think it has anything to do with them realzing their game engine is bad (or whatever).

I think it has to do with "some players like to get to where they want to be FAST so let's make money off of this."

Um ya okay, but your missing the whole point about them making it cumbersome / time consuming and immersion breaking in the first place then charging money if you want to by pass it instead of just changing the process in game for everyone.

  ImperialSun

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/05/12
Posts: 231

2/14/13 10:36:59 AM#87
Originally posted by snapfusion
Originally posted by Sovrath

I don't think it has anything to do with them realzing their game engine is bad (or whatever).

I think it has to do with "some players like to get to where they want to be FAST so let's make money off of this."

Um ya okay, but your missing the whole point about them making it cumbersome / time consuming and immersion breaking in the first place then charging money if you want to by pass it instead of just changing the process in game for everyone.

 

Says who?

 

Having to travel to space port / fleet / ship provides a little bit of a time sink and improves the immersion factor greatly IMO. I can think of nothing more immersion breaking than an insta-teleport system allowing you to travel around without even moving a step...what is this Star Trek??

 

Seriously, the current implementation of quick travel is as convenient as the game needs to get IMO.

 

And do you seriously think the game designers made you travel between planets / fleet / ship instead of providing a Star Trek style "beam me up" mechanic just so they could make you pay to remove the extra immersion at a later date?

 

Methinks you cannot be serious...

 

Driz

  ktanner3

Master

Joined: 3/19/06
Posts: 4146

Trolls will be ignored

2/14/13 10:46:18 AM#88
Originally posted by superniceguy
Originally posted by bfpiercelk
 

 

Sweet zombie jesus man. I'm an SWG vet and loved the game (I STILL play it from time to time), but even I have the intelligence to realize the faults in it. You're nothing more than a blind apologist. 

The fact that you had to spend time ingame (MORE THAN 5 minutes I guarantee you with loading screens, which shows just how thick those glasses are.) is what I mentioned in my post, but no no, I'm "wrong" because it's ok because it's a game I like so it's all cool. Fact is you spent credits on the shuttle, or the personal ship to get there. The scale of ingame credit cost is different for sure on a few shuttles flights at least, but really not that big of a deal. If they charged 1 million credits in SWG for the ITV I would have had NO PROBLEM with it because of how easy credits were to make (same as in SWTOR).

Arguing the point any further seems completely moot at this point really, worse than trying to get a conservative to beleive Global Warming is real.

It actually cost ZERO credits to use your own ship to travel between planets. For a vet you do not seem to know much about SWG. Even 2 other posters corrected you with the ITV.

My guess for that mix up is because he probably stopped playing after the NGE hit. That game changed it's identitiy more times than Madonna so it's difficult to remember certain detials because the rules changed so much.. But you are correct. The shuttle that could come and pick you up anywhere didn't cost anything by the time the game ended. Whether or not it did cost money at the time it was first put in I honestly can't remember. It's been five years since I played the game and certain details are a little fuzzy. 

Currently Playing: Star Wars The Old Republic

  Sovrath

Elite Member

Joined: 1/06/05
Posts: 17071

2/14/13 11:17:22 AM#89
Originally posted by snapfusion
Originally posted by Sovrath

I don't think it has anything to do with them realzing their game engine is bad (or whatever).

I think it has to do with "some players like to get to where they want to be FAST so let's make money off of this."

Um ya okay, but your missing the whole point about them making it cumbersome / time consuming and immersion breaking in the first place then charging money if you want to by pass it instead of just changing the process in game for everyone.

well, "his" original point was that it was an engine issue. And I commented on exactly what he said.

as far as immersion breaking, I would say that, loading screens aside, traveling through actual several areas is more immersive than just beaming to your ship.

People seem to want to play the immersion card but then don't really seem to think what Immersion really is. It's like the people claiming that if a game is in first person it's not immersive because "3rd person is more immersive".

"3rd. Person.". "3rd"

So, I don't agree with your immersion statement. Now, it would be more immersive if there were no loading screens but it is what it is.

  baphamet

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/05/06
Posts: 2633

110100100

2/14/13 11:37:32 AM#90


Originally posted by superniceguy

Originally posted by ktanner3

Originally posted by SoulStain

Originally posted by superniceguy

Originally posted by SoulStain Sure the loadscreens suck but priority travel is just another legacy perk like all others. Buy it with cartel coins or credits. Don't see the problem. At least not a new one the doesn't smell of a beaten dead equine.  
"Buy it with cartel coins or credits" That is the problem. If you had said "Buy it with cartel coins or credits or play the game (and do a certain quest which rewards you with it)" Then there would be no problem. It would give the game more content, and be rewarding. After getting the ITV in SWG for the very first time by collecting the parts at various spaceports was awesome.  It was a simple task, but seriously boosted my motivation for playing the game post NGE.
They're just using the legacy system as it was introduced. Sure..i guess a little quest would be cool but I dont have any problem with it as stands. They could drop the credit costs a bit tho imo.
You gain credits by playing the game so his gripe still makes no sense. 
Which is just a waste of credits, and grinding game just to get credits is boring. I would rather play the game / do a quest, and be rewarded the perk, than grind credits and waste them on it. The whole setup is done so you give and up and pay real money

wasting your time doing a quest to be rewarded with a perk is not much different that doing quests to get credits to purchase a perk.

that is a part of every mmo, getting the currency to buy the stuff that you need or want.

if that is boring to you then mmo's in general must bore you.

i cant think of an mmo i have ever played that didn't require grinding for currency or items, if you wanted them that is.

this game has an item shop, they sell stuff on the item shop to make money.

its not a big deal, except for people that relentlessly trash a game they don't like or play for whatever reason i guess?

  baphamet

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/05/06
Posts: 2633

110100100

2/14/13 11:42:36 AM#91

many newer mmo's have loading screens and instances, complaining about it is rather redundant.

if you only like games that are totally seamless right on! but to act like only older games use that tech makes me think you are just searching for things to harp on.

which is often the case in the SWTOR forum.

  Slampig

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/29/03
Posts: 2384

Whatever you do, do NOT speak ill of Asheron's Call 2...

2/14/13 11:45:55 AM#92
Originally posted by Karteli
Originally posted by Sovrath

I don't think it has anything to do with them realzing their game engine is bad (or whatever).

I think it has to do with "some players like to get to where they want to be FAST so let's make money off of this."

Zone loads can take up to several minutes though, in my experience.  So if someone can eliminate the load from travel to spaceship hub to hanger to airlock to spaceship, I'd say this charge (costing $$) is abusive.

 

Not to mention this is the first step to paying for a teleport wherever you would like to go in the galaxy, with just 1 load screen, instead of 5.

 

AND ... the cooldown can be reduced with real-money.  Real-money is a big no-no.  SWTOR is advertised as a F2P game, but presented in the last investor call as a P2P?  EA is walking on thin ice, and fans will see through the thin ice and not go near them.

 

Paying for basic functionality in a F2P is not cool.

Reading is fundamental.

That Guild Wars 2 login screen knocked up my wife. Must be the second coming!

  tiefighter25

Novice Member

Joined: 7/30/12
Posts: 949

2/14/13 12:15:18 PM#93

To be fair to all parties, the new mechanic is confusing as all frack. (To me at least.)

One of the knocks on SWTOR is the convaluted travelling mechanic.

Bioware came up with a way to help alleviate the tedium of it.

That mechanic, instead of just being added as a gme improvement, has been added as a Legacy unlock.

So, depending on your Legacy status and your subscription status, the new mechanic is either a minor money sink, or a monetized mico-transaction.

I believe, but please correct me if I'm wrong, everyone gets 1 use of the new mechanic every 24 hours.

To decrease the cool-down on the 24 hour timer, you have to buy an unlock.

Furthermore, that unlock is split into 3 tiers.

To buy the 3 tiers of unlocks via credits, you need to have a Legacy of 50.

If you buy the unlock with cartel coins (cash for FTP'ers, cash or stipend for subbers) at about $1.50 per tier (?) it is charcter only unlocks, as opposed to a legacy wide unlock?

To add to the confusion, it was released bugged, giving everyone the level 3 unlock of 1 hour initially.

Now it's been patched back to 24 hours, BUT, it's bugged again, so you buy the unlocks, they are not functioning.

The non-functioning unlocks are both credit and real cash purchases.

The game will have to be patched again to fix this.

 

That shit is confusing to both players and non-players.

To me, it would have been better if they just gave the unlock out, or at least simplified the crap out of it.

Maybe the monetization of it is minor, but it sure creates a convaluted mechanic.

(Which if interpreted a certain way, seems like nickel and diming, which is usually seen as bad PR.)

Congrats if you were able to read all that.

  tiefighter25

Novice Member

Joined: 7/30/12
Posts: 949

2/14/13 12:32:30 PM#94
If someone in the know can explain how the new mechanic works, its different tiers, and how it can be, and for how much it can purchased for, that would be noth elucidating and appreciaed.
  Karteli

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/09/12
Posts: 2704

 
OP  2/14/13 12:38:38 PM#95
Originally posted by tiefighter25

To be fair to all parties, the new mechanic is confusing as all frack. (To me at least.)

One of the knocks on SWTOR is the convaluted travelling mechanic.

Bioware came up with a way to help alleviate the tedium of it.

That mechanic, instead of just being added as a gme improvement, has been added as a Legacy unlock.

So, depending on your Legacy status and your subscription status, the new mechanic is either a minor money sink, or a monetized mico-transaction.

I believe, but please correct me if I'm wrong, everyone gets 1 use of the new mechanic every 24 hours.

To decrease the cool-down on the 24 hour timer, you have to buy an unlock.

Furthermore, that unlock is split into 3 tiers.

To buy the 3 tiers of unlocks via credits, you need to have a Legacy of 50.

If you buy the unlock with cartel coins (cash for FTP'ers, cash or stipend for subbers) at about $1.50 per tier (?) it is charcter only unlocks, as opposed to a legacy wide unlock?

To add to the confusion, it was released bugged, giving everyone the level 3 unlock of 1 hour initially.

Now it's been patched back to 24 hours, BUT, it's bugged again, so you buy the unlocks, they are not functioning.

The non-functioning unlocks are both credit and real cash purchases.

The game will have to be patched again to fix this.

 

That shit is confusing to both players and non-players.

To me, it would have been better if they just gave the unlock out, or at least simplified the crap out of it.

Maybe the monetization of it is minor, but it sure creates a convaluted mechanic.

(Which if interpreted a certain way, seems like nickel and diming, which is usually seen as bad PR.)

Congrats if you were able to read all that.

I got through all of it.  Defenders will probably ignore most of it though, especially the part about the legacy requirements being revealed.  I don't think very many people actually have such a high legacy level.

 

I wonder if the final price will be adjusted though.  EA already indicated that the new system was buggy (since they have not quite got down what a PTR is).  It may be unchangeable at this point, but I am feeling that EA made another blunder by putting the wrong price (along with the wrong level, automatic access and such).  Almost like it was a legacy database glitch and got crossed with something else.  Uhh whoops, if thats the case?

 

Want a nice understanding of life? Try Spirit Science: "The Human History"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8NNHmV3QPw&feature=plcp
Recognize the voice? Yep sounds like Penny Arcade's Extra Credits.

  TsaboHavoc

Novice Member

Joined: 11/01/11
Posts: 340

2/14/13 12:38:42 PM#96

so they create an inconvenience based on incompetency and then charges ppl to overcome them.  EA at their best.

  zomard100

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/16/11
Posts: 232

2/14/13 12:45:42 PM#97
Horrible load times???  You must change your 56k us robotics modem for adsl and to jump from Pentium I to quad core procesor and gforce mx400 graphic card is not good anymore
  tiefighter25

Novice Member

Joined: 7/30/12
Posts: 949

2/14/13 12:48:04 PM#98
Originally posted by zomard100
Horrible load times???  You must change your 56k us robotics modem for adsl and to jump from Pentium I to quad core procesor and gforce mx400 graphic card is not good anymore

Even if you have insta-load times, the process of getting around is still a multi-step pain in the ass. Don't conflate issues please.

  tiefighter25

Novice Member

Joined: 7/30/12
Posts: 949

2/14/13 1:27:48 PM#99

Again I ask someone to explain the new Priority Transport mechanic, and maybe even describe how it differs from fleet pass and Quick Travel.

If you consider yourself a game defender, this would be a good time to defend as opposed to yapping about 56K modems.

  Karteli

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/09/12
Posts: 2704

 
OP  2/14/13 2:03:45 PM#100
Originally posted by tiefighter25

Again I ask someone to explain the new Priority Transport mechanic, and maybe even describe how it differs from fleet pass and Quick Travel.

If you consider yourself a game defender, this would be a good time to defend as opposed to yapping about 56K modems.

You might have to wait on that answer.  Personal Starship was severly bugged, interlaced with Quick Travel (intended, unintended ??), and the tooltips were screwed up to boot.  The original legacy unlock level was 15 & 20, or so, with automatic unlocks also some sort of issue, reportedly for anyone & everyone.  A hot fix last night made it so you can spend money on the unlock Real $$ or legacy 30-50, but you never get it!  Lulz .. it's bugged worse now because it steals money.

I wonder just how much EA is spending to keep reimbursing people because of improper testing .. must be expensive.

 

Improved Personal Starship transport unlocks appear bugged

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=5857056

 

JovethGonzalez

Hi everyone and thank you for reporting this to us. We apologize for this error, but know that we are currently working towards a resolution for this. In the meantime, please do not purchase the Priority Transport: Personal Starship Legacy Character Perk or any of its upgrades until this is resolved. We will update this thread as soon as we have more information. Again, we apologize for the inconvenience.

 

Originally posted by zomard100
Horrible load times???  You must change your 56k us robotics modem for adsl and to jump from Pentium I to quad core procesor and gforce mx400 graphic card is not good anymore

If this is your first MMO, you get a pass on stuff like what you said =P

 

Everquest had long loads too between each of its many zones .. but that was 1999.  Even modern good games like Aion had zones though, but travel between them took seconds, not several minutes per load (like SWTOR).  I can't say GW2 is a great game, but they also had zones and near instant loads.  SWTOR is using old technology or < ahem > game architects that laid out a poor design, with Q/A stamping an approval because they didn't know what they were doing anyways ..

Want a nice understanding of life? Try Spirit Science: "The Human History"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8NNHmV3QPw&feature=plcp
Recognize the voice? Yep sounds like Penny Arcade's Extra Credits.

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