Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by apocoluster
 Depends on the game. 

 Likely yes.

Other than video games can you think of a game with a penalty other than not advancing when you lose?

Board games.  Have you ever played Arkham Horror?  That game can be downright cruel.

Originally posted by dave6660

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by apocoluster
 Depends on the game. 

 Likely yes.

Other than video games can you think of a game with a penalty other than not advancing when you lose?

Board games.  Have you ever played Arkham Horror?  That game can be downright cruel.

 I've never played Akrham Horror, however have played many board games.  When I lost the game nothing happened to me to make it harder to play again.  How does Arkham Horror do this?

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by dave6660

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by apocoluster
 Depends on the game. 

 Likely yes.

Other than video games can you think of a game with a penalty other than not advancing when you lose?

Board games.  Have you ever played Arkham Horror?  That game can be downright cruel.

 I've never played Akrham Horror, however have played many board games.  When I lost the game nothing happened to me to make it harder to play again.  How does Arkham Horror do this?

It doesn't punish you the next game, it punishes you that game.  Sort of like what a death penalty does in an mmorpg.  In Arkham Horror, your character can die and you won't lose the game but there are penalties.

Originally posted by dave6660

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by dave6660

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by apocoluster
 Depends on the game. 

 Likely yes.

Other than video games can you think of a game with a penalty other than not advancing when you lose?

Board games.  Have you ever played Arkham Horror?  That game can be downright cruel.

 I've never played Akrham Horror, however have played many board games.  When I lost the game nothing happened to me to make it harder to play again.  How does Arkham Horror do this?

It doesn't punish you the next game, it punishes you that game.  Sort of like what a death penalty does in an mmorpg.  In Arkham Horror, your character can die and you won't lose the game but there are penalties.

Interesting.  Of course the biggest different is an MMO doesnt' end, the board game does, so IMO a board game is more akin to an individual encounter in an MMO, or since you can die in Arkham and the game doesn't end, possibly a single play session in an MMO, unless of course the board game doesn't end. 

Just out of curiousity what is the penalty?

Well, why not just remove death?  I mean what's the point?  These games already hand you everything else on a silver platter and all but play the game for you.

Just goes to show there will always be a market for ultra-mega casual/easy solo God Mode MMO games.

Originally posted by MindTrigger

Well, why not just remove death?  I mean what's the point?  These games already hand you everything else on a silver platter and all but play the game for you.

Just goes to show there will always be a market for ultra-mega casual/easy solo God Mode MMO games.

 Hmm I guess you belive that not having a death penalty somehow means that they don't want challenge either. 

all depends on the game really.  it just needs to make sense for the game. 

eve online makes sense.  your ship gets blown up you have to buy a new one and new equipment, pretty hefty penalty depending on the ship.  if your pod gets blown up you lose your toon, unless you had him cloned.  which depending onthe last time you cloned you could lose a good bit of exp and trained skills.  had a friend that forgot to clone right after training up a rank 5 in carrier, he died and lost months of training time.

asherons call made sense as when you died your body resurrected at a lifestone with some of your lifeforce gone until you earned it back via exp.  plus you dropped some items that you were carrying and all your loose coin.  the worst part sometimes is you had to run back to where you were hunting/questing at and then you could recover your items but your coins were lost forever.  but depending on what you were doing that was not always possible.

wow never really made sense, go back to a spirit binder and have to spirit walk back to your body or rez at the spiritbinder with durability damage.  maybe its somewhere in warcraft lore but to me it was just a time and money sink just to say we have a death penalty.

most modern games the death penalty is meaningless so it might as well not even be there.  i like the idea if it makes sense to the lore, if not just remove it if the only reason you have one is because every game before had a death penalty.

Originally posted by FallguyArmy
...So again, I ask, what benefits do death penalities have in improving your character in an MMO?

Why on earth should death, failure improve your character?

What's next? Purples for not completing the raid? Levelling from 1st - end game by not playing?

Death should sting. Death should be an inconvenience. You should have a reason to avoid death.

If death improved your character, wha...I...I don't even know what to say...

Originally posted by Nibs

Originally posted by FallguyArmy
...So again, I ask, what benefits do death penalities have in improving your character in an MMO?

Why on earth should death, failure improve your character?

What's next? Purples for not completing the raid? Levelling from 1st - end game by not playing?

Death should sting. Death should be an inconvenience. You should have a reason to avoid death.

If death improved your character, wha...I...I don't even know what to say...

I take it you haven't heard then, about WOW's new plan to reward PUG DF groups who wipe with increasing 10% buff bonuses up to like 50 or maybe 90% to help them complete the content?  True story actually.

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by MindTrigger

Well, why not just remove death?  I mean what's the point?  These games already hand you everything else on a silver platter and all but play the game for you.

Just goes to show there will always be a market for ultra-mega casual/easy solo God Mode MMO games.

 Hmm I guess you belive that not having a death penalty somehow means that they don't want challenge either. 

Exactly.

I mean, really, what's the difference between:

1. Wiping on a challenging boss over and over for 4 hours and paying 100 gold in repair bills (minimum DP)

and

2. Wiping on a challenging boss once and spending 100 gold replacing items and 4 hours re-gaining the XP you need to work off a death penalty (high DP)

You want to know the answer?

#1 you actually have room to learn, improve, and practice/get better.

#1 actually rewards you for playing really skillfully and not wiping for hours

#1 rewards you for trying new strategies and taking chances and trying new things

#1 gives more variation in acceptable tactics, character builds, group compesition

I could go on and on and on.

I think we should keep and continue building into games a Time death penalty.

You dont lose stats/power/items/wealth, you lose time.

Originally posted by BlitzVF

I think we should keep and continue building into games a Time death penalty.

You dont lose stats/power/items/wealth, you lose time.

Time is a predator that stalks us all our lives...

Originally posted by Tindale111
no death penalty, no challenge, no fun.

 Odd.  I've always viewed challenge as what I need to do to win a fight, penalty is what happens after I lose.

They are different.

Originally posted by Icewhite

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

 Haha.  You win.

Log Rolling? Loser get pneumonia, in addition to getting teased and called names by the other lumberjacks.

Strip poker? Losing is winning. Affects after the game may be permanet.

IMO, depends of penalty.

it's not for nothing that modern MMO punish you with few coins, but some oldish MMO gave you large XP or time penalties, or, even worse, loss of your items / money.

I think small penalty can't bother my game playing but large one can be annyoing and drive to to the door.

about question if we should remove it completely, I would tell, why not, all depends on general game content and play style.

Originally posted by Robokapp

Originally posted by FallguyArmy
I think a better question to ask is, "What benefits do death penalties have in the progression of character leveling in MMOs?"

it's simple.

 

let's say a questgiver asks you to kill he scary wolf that's terrorizing the village.

 

the developers can easily make a wolf. It's not very easy to make the wolf scary though.

 

but if the wolf can kill you can dying sucks...suddenly the wolf just got scary a little, didn't it ?

Not remotely.  If the wolf gets to be more dangerous than it's worth, that the benefit of killing it don't significantly outweigh the potential costs of killing it, then I'll tell the questgiver where to shove his quest.  If the whole game is like that, I'll go find something else to play.

I don't give a damn about scary wolves, I want a game that's fun to play.

Originally posted by LadyEuphei
Remove the death penalty and implement perma-death. Problem solved!

If you're trying to kill the game, sure. 

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Interesting.  Of course the biggest different is an MMO doesnt' end, the board game does, so IMO a board game is more akin to an individual encounter in an MMO, or since you can die in Arkham and the game doesn't end, possibly a single play session in an MMO, unless of course the board game doesn't end. 

Just out of curiousity what is the penalty?

It depends.

If your investigator is reduced to 0 sanity or 0 stamina while in Arkham he loses half his ability cards, spell cards, money and any retainers he possess.  You start your next turn normally but with 1 sanity or stamina.

If your investigator is reduced to 0 sanity or 0 stamina while in the Other World, it's the same as above plus you lose a turn.

There are other rules for if you're fighting the ancient one (the boss) but I don't remember them off hand.  They get pretty nasty though.