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Camelot Unchained

Camelot Unchained 

General Discussion  » CC and Interrupts will make or break

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84 posts found
  Zarkor

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/05
Posts: 10

 
OP  2/12/13 7:10:16 AM#1

I don't know what lessons MJ learned from his former games, including DAoC, but I for one, as a player firmly believe that crowd control makes or breaks the PvP experience in any MMO.

DAoC did things right. It granted players the opportunity to outplay larger forces by thinking their actions through. Both sides had mezz, it was however the side that handled the resulting benefits smarter that had the upper hand.

What happens in zergs is an uncontrolable spamfest. Any other form of CC, like we are seeing today (short CC, knock-backs, ups, downs, rounds, unders, ... -.-) actually gain strength in numbers. Especially since the short duration on these forms of CC means that there is no Immunity timer.

DAoC's long CC and Immunity timers were the perfect counter to mindless zerging, which is what made its organised teamplay aspect so goddamn awesome. Also, I have never played a game where properly utilising CC granted more battle satisfaction than basicly any other offensive ability. Killing them was one thing, but being in control is something entirely different.

That brings me to the next subject: Interrupting. The casting system in DAoC was just right. All the 'casting while moving' or 'cast-bar' (where spells will finish casting regardless) bullshit was just wrong to be honest. Again, it only strengthened the zerg because in the end, nothing was really going to prevent you from being at least somewhat 'effective'. Being able to shut down the spellcasters by casting 1 AoE spell in the middle of them is another ideal way of countering mindless playerclusters.

 

Zerging is disliked because it's basicly as mindless as PvE. Prevent such a dumbed down playstyle from overpowering teamplay, positioning, skill and wits purely due to lack of numbers and you'll be making a grave mistake. MJ can focus on PvP as much as he wants, as long as the CC and rupts are gonna be just more of the same, things aren't looking good...

  meddyck

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/18/08
Posts: 1132

2/12/13 7:20:35 AM#2

I don't think long duration CC and hard interrupts were fundamental to how fun DAOC was.

Certainly there's no chance they're going to have 60+ second unbreakable mezz and root in CU like DAOC had at release especially since DAOC itself long since added many things to make CC less effective (immunity timers, AE dropoff, resists reducing duration, Determination, Purge, Cure Mezz). Something like 20 seconds max duration CC with counter spells (purge and cure spells) and long immunity timers (5 minutes) would work fine.

It does get to be a bit ridiculous in some games how every spell is instant cast and unstoppable, but you could counter that by having more silence abilities rather than using DAOC's stand-still-to-cast and the-slightest-thing-interrupts system.

Camelot Unchained Founder
DAOC [retired]: R11 Cleric R11 Druid R11 Minstrel R9 Eldritch R6 Sorc R6 Scout R5 Healer

  aylwynn

Novice Member

Joined: 2/09/13
Posts: 95

2/12/13 7:28:20 AM#3

Actually I agree with you Zarkor. Long duration CC/Buffs/Debuffs and rupts forced you to think about your positiong, movement and target picking.

By the way ... Here we meet again if you're the one from Uthgard :D

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12224

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Project Gorgon, and Combat Arms

2/12/13 7:33:35 AM#4
Replace CC with collision detection.

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  Darrgen

Novice Member

Joined: 10/05/10
Posts: 65

2/12/13 9:28:50 AM#5
Originally posted by meddyck

I don't think long duration CC and hard interrupts were fundamental to how fun DAOC was.

Certainly there's no chance they're going to have 60+ second unbreakable mezz and root in CU like DAOC had at release especially since DAOC itself long since added many things to make CC less effective (immunity timers, AE dropoff, resists reducing duration, Determination, Purge, Cure Mezz). Something like 20 seconds max duration CC with counter spells (purge and cure spells) and long immunity timers (5 minutes) would work fine.

It does get to be a bit ridiculous in some games how every spell is instant cast and unstoppable, but you could counter that by having more silence abilities rather than using DAOC's stand-still-to-cast and the-slightest-hing-interrupts system.

 

20 seconds is a tiny bit too short if youre still going to have things like determination and resists that reduce duration. My suggestion would be to have 30 second duration baseline with melee being able to reduce it with talents by 50 percent and resists not effect it. Then offer cures from healers and purges as well. 1 minute immunity was also a good time imo and would be fine for a 30 second cc that breaks on anything
  tlear

Novice Member

Joined: 12/15/07
Posts: 143

2/12/13 9:35:56 AM#6
It also promoted smarter zerg play, you could go all out aoe for interupts or utilize mezz. both styles of zerging worked well. AOE mezz probably should last around 40 seconds on a new character and could be reduced to 15 sec or so on a maxed/buffed high rank melee. AOE root is also good to have. I do not think AOE stun is really needed but I an not against it. ALL mezz on one 1 min timer, all roots on1 timer, all stun on one timer and we are golden
  CluckingChicken

Novice Member

Joined: 2/07/13
Posts: 54

2/12/13 1:38:15 PM#7
Taking control is fun, sure. But being on the other end isn't. I don't want to sit there staring at my screen hoping someone will come save me while I'm stuck in a long CC. I may as well just tab out and browse the web. There was a place for long duration CC in DAoC, but there's a real chance to be more creative with this title.
  boxsnd

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/04/12
Posts: 401

2/12/13 3:21:23 PM#8

DAoC did many things right and few things wrong.

Its CC system was the best I have seen in any MMO. Any changes to that formula would be very risky IMO.

DAoC - Excalibur & Camlann

  Dward127

Novice Member

Joined: 7/07/09
Posts: 44

2/12/13 3:26:54 PM#9
lets hope they dont put cc  in i hated being mezzed for the whole fight in daoc.
  Jostle

Novice Member

Joined: 4/12/06
Posts: 63

2/12/13 4:05:15 PM#10

I wrote briefly about my thoughts on CC in "The List" thread. Here's what I think.

TL;DR version: make long-duration CC channeled.

CC is cool. For the most part, the more dynamic combat is and the more aspects there are to it the better*. And, just like any aspect of combat, or anything else in a game for that matter, it should be handled carefully. Crowd control over many targets for a long period of time, such as a mez, can really help in breaking up the zerg, encourage tight-knit and consistent groups. It can also be a major pain in the ass if there aren't enough counters. Obviously things like passive effects that mitigate CC time (whether purchased via some sort of RR/RA type system or a buff or something) or something more active like a purge (self is good, relying on another group member to purge your mez is even better). Something that I really think would go a long way to keeping things balanced is to not have a "set it and forget it" approach to crowd control. Being able to CC and then go on doing all sorts of other things (be it damage, buff, heal, run away, etc.) is not a good system.

Crowd control is a powerfull tool and should require more of an investment than just a spec and a single cast. What I propose is having longer-duration, loss-of-control CCs being channeled. Other CCs such as roots, knockbacks, pulls, snares, silences (disabling magic-based abilities), cripples (disabling physical abilities), and even cooler things like conjuring up walls of stone to block line-of-sight should be fine to just activite. Mezzes, however, whether they be single-target, gtaoe, pbaoe or whatever, should be channeled. Having multiple CC classes channeling together should increase their effects. This way, a purge or mitigation effect can stop it, as can interrupting the CC class in question. Counters are good*.

Now, when it comes to the ugliness about having diminishing returns versus an immunity timer, I don't really care for diminishing returns, and I think having a long immunity for being mezzed for a whole two seconds and then purging isn't a great idea either. I'd really like to see a system in which you gain immunity to CC for about how long you were CC'd for. Yes, I understand this might mean getting chain-CC'd more, but I like to think of CC and interrupts as two different beasts. This would add an extra layer to combat, though. Imagine you're a healer, and your group gets hit by a surprise AoE mez. Do you immediately purge and get ready to lay down some support, but leave yourself immune to CC for only a second or two, or do you save your purge and enjoy your mezzmerized state knowing that you'll be ready to heal when the... stuff really hits the fan.

Now imagine being a dude (or dudette) with CC. Do you keep your mez up for the full duration while the rest of your squad smashes into the helpless group, or do you just do it long enough for them to get into possition and then lay out some aoe snares and cripples while their mez immunity wears off and then hit them again when you really need them debilitated.

Just my two cents.

*If developed in a smart way.

 

EDIT: Also: I've been thinking alot about QTEs to make CC a little more active. The CCer goes through a quicktime event as does the recipient. If the channler is faster at it, the CC lasts longer. If the victim is faster, the CC doesn't last as long. This, however, somewhat blurs that whole RPG/Action thing. I still remember that I like to play RPGs because I get to, ya know, play a role. I'm not an ace archer or a supermage. Yes, the actual character control is important, but this QTE thing might be too much for some people. I get that. I might even be one of them.

  dunemeerlin

Novice Member

Joined: 2/13/09
Posts: 18

2/12/13 4:55:14 PM#11

I miss quality CC in MMOs.

 

In my opinion, the thing WAR/SWTOR/GW2 had in common were shit CC. Single or limited target short CC, most of which doesn't break on damage, has become the stardard in MMOs. It's fine for arena style combat, but leaves the RvR experience laking a lot.

 

It's the casual mindset of MMOs that there shouldn't be spells that remove control of my character from me for more then a couple seconds.

  SirFubar

Novice Member

Joined: 7/21/11
Posts: 403

2/12/13 5:06:59 PM#12
Originally posted by Zarkor

DAoC did things right. It granted players the opportunity to outplay larger forces by thinking their actions through.

You know that most MMO allows you to outplay larger forces right? Considering the larger forces knows how to play and the zerg don't. Its not something that can only be done in DAoC...

  aylwynn

Novice Member

Joined: 2/09/13
Posts: 95

2/12/13 5:14:29 PM#13

I got purge or determination 5 on all my characters. Sometimes you were forced to have purge 3 and another time you even had a second demezzer like on mid or hib. CC just determined your positioning ... Warden without purge3 or determination 5? Too bad, pick a heal warden. I was okay with it ... The druid specced on nature and did the rupt.

There were always ... people who made mistakes and hit a fresh-mezzed enemy. Don't forget counters like deadly nearsight (especially if you were not able to cure it without purge) and the mentioned rupt.

Eventually you could be able to get more purge-like skills in CU IF they'd implement longtime duration CC. But I think they should be expensive or a well-thought action to purchase one.

  alexisevic

Novice Member

Joined: 3/24/11
Posts: 41

2/14/13 5:30:23 PM#14
Long duration CC is the only way to counter massive zergs.  It needs to be in this game.  What also needs to be in the game though is the ability for organized players to counter that CC.  DAoC had the right formula, it just needs a bit of modernization and tuning.
  skyexile

Novice Member

Joined: 8/14/07
Posts: 701

2/14/13 6:16:06 PM#15


Originally posted by alexisevic
Long duration CC is the only way to counter massive zergs.  It needs to be in this game.  What also needs to be in the game though is the ability for organized players to counter that CC.  DAoC had the right formula, it just needs a bit of modernization and tuning.

I think devastating AOE is too, RAIN OF FIRE! there does need to be some CC in there, to make that work, but no 90sec CC, just enough to keep them in the AOE and off you.

no AOE cap either, zergs should be punished for clustering.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=koe5PTQi8HM

Video of my guild in GW2, we use shock and awe and hit them hard fast and generally by surprise, rooting, time warping and magneting them into aoe. in GW2 its hard to take on large amount of opponents because of that annoying AOE cap, but without that and just strong aoe small groups like in WAR could operate that bit easier. I wouldnt want to take on a zerg in WAR with less than 12 though, 18 optimal.

SKYeXile
TRF - GM - GW2, PS2, WAR, AION, Rift, WoW, WOT....etc...
Future Crew - High Council. Planetside 1 & 2.

  redcapp

Novice Member

Joined: 5/13/11
Posts: 733

2/14/13 6:21:37 PM#16

CC may be an important factor, but I don't think any game coming out today should try to replicate DAoC's system.  Taking away a player's control of his character for minutes at a time is just lame. 

 

I'd rather see a modern system.  Perhaps where smaller groups of players can simply take advantage of terrain, create/exploit bottlenecks.. impliment collision detection.  That would be more interesting.  Simply spamming AOE mezz into a group of newbs is just dumb and unimaginative, though.

  Vargur

Novice Member

Joined: 1/15/10
Posts: 142

2/18/13 4:17:00 PM#17
I think CC has a place in CU, but it needs to be limited. Personally I enjoy zergs and the craziness of the big fights, and nothing is more annoying than being in a PUG or with your timres down, and not being able to fight back.
  Lore84

Novice Member

Joined: 2/15/13
Posts: 69

2/18/13 4:20:27 PM#18
I absolutely think that long duration CC has to be in this game. It needs counters, of course, but we need strong CC.

Ex-DAOC, Excalibur

  rojoArcueid

Elite Member

Joined: 8/13/09
Posts: 5539

"It is double pleasure to deceive the deceiver". - Niccolo Machiavelli

2/18/13 4:25:34 PM#19

i think mmos have to stop being Crowd Control fest. Thats not fun.

If theres going to be any form of CC (fear, stun, knockback, knockdown,etc) it should have a pretty long cooldown and dont give them all to every class. maybe 1 or 2 per class with a long cooldown for a situational use. Combat based on CC is terrible. I prefer combat based on real time blocking and not just a CC spam like the traditional mmos have become.

My endgame begins with character creation and ends with a new mmorpg

  Angier2758

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/05/09
Posts: 1060

2/18/13 5:05:19 PM#20
So will fireballs make warriors fall down or stagger back on it? If not you can hush about mindless cast bars....... one sided realism is silly.
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