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WWII Online: Battleground Europe

World War II Online 

General Discussion  » an amazing thing happened last night during the battle of Nandrin

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81 posts found
  david06

Novice Member

Joined: 10/02/12
Posts: 183

2/13/13 8:09:33 PM#61


Originally posted by anfiach`

Originally posted by Jsilec Rdp wars-axis could not keep up the game changed so they could win again Toe's-axis try to do a huge southern flanking manuever 2 maps in a row after toes introduced and lose those maps and 2 after since they couldnt grasp the concept-ahc map movers go axis to join okw and right the ship Axis win 10 maps in a row-allies told they suck and fix it themselves NERF BAT swings both ways so get over yourselves
Thanks for helping to prove my point.

Yeah the Antwerp thing just indicates that the company is taking a more direct involvement.


It's not some paranoid conspiracy. They have long talked about the problems with important captures+map movements during low population unbalancing the game and causing the more subscription-heavy time zones to leave. AOs, the FRU nerf, timers, supply, etc. weren't enough so they finally did something about it.


I'll point out that this is another failure of the HC system. A handful of good high command officers unsubscribing or switching sides can be catastrophic...I thought the point was to remove power from the unaccountable mega-squads and bring CRS more control of the game, give it more stability. Now it takes just a few players to upset the game rather than a mass movement.

  anfiach`

Novice Member

Joined: 10/03/06
Posts: 111

2/13/13 8:58:35 PM#62
The problem is, and they've said it themselves, they don't want parity of ability they want parity of results.
  Hodo

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/05/08
Posts: 559

2/14/13 8:59:50 AM#63
Originally posted by Silky303
Originally posted by anfiach`
Originally posted by Silky303
Originally posted by david06

 


Originally posted by dcoy68
Camp 89 day 12 and its almost over. Another amazing Allied win.  Game is "fixed"  again because the side that had been winning is now losing.  

 

Must bug the heck out of the thought controllers they can't delete the plain, simple truth here.  That truth is in the numbers.  Cover it with all the side bias nonsense, name-calling, or rah rah BS you want.    But you can't convice a TON of ex-players the way this "balance" is achieved is a good thing.   Or that the cost in player subs is worth it.  But I left over Antwerp right?  Keep your head in the sand.

 


 

One of the last things that WW2online had going for it was the campaign.


Most of the time the fighting is so profoundly unenjoyable(the result of years of bad game decisions) that the only reason people continue to attack towns is because of the prospect of breaking through and winning the map. You'd think that CRS would've realized this after the failure of the "bloody battles" scenarios, if not years earlier.


Since they are picking and choosing winners to keep one side from losing too much then there isn't a point to the campaign. People criticize Planetside 2 because a side never really wins, but there at least the fighting mechanics are decent, there are huge payoffs for teamwork and it does feel great to take your team from a minority position all the way to the enemy's gate and camp them.

Little bit unfair to characterise CRS as 'picking and choosing'. The Antwerp issue can't be ignored but it's hardly the orchestrated puppet show you're suggesting it is

Isn't it? Every time theres a side continually losing suddenly there's an adjustment to supply or a new vehicle introduced or a ballistics audit or a server issue, etc. etc.. and suddenly the underdog is top dog. It is insulting to everone.

Can you furnish those accusations with facts and evidence?

Yes, look up the previous TO&Es from the past few years.   I am not saying that I agree with Anfiach but he is mostly right.

 

CRS has adjusted the TO&E tables when one side loses a string of campaigns, it became a joke with in the Axis side and my squad 1st FJ.    We used to say near the end of campaign, "Well next campaign we will have to do win again but with 1/4 less armor and air."   It got so bad that when the Tier system was put in, it was so imballanced that I spearheaded a walk out by the Axis side.   

 

CRS has to keep the game fun, so I agree they should mess with the TO&E tables if several campaigns in a row are lost by one side.   But other than fixing glaring errors or bugs they havent really changed any weapon data or nerfed armor data just so one side can win.    I may hate DOC, but I dont hate CRS or WWIIOL, and saying that CRS has been intentionally doing things so Allies can win or so Axis can win is just a load of crock.  

 

 

So much crap, so little quality.

  Silky303

Novice Member

Joined: 10/30/10
Posts: 137

2/14/13 9:46:47 AM#64

If - big 'if,' I accept - you take Antwerp as a one off error or glitch or unfortunate turn of events, I think you'd be hard pressed to throw too much criticism at CRS for tweaks made in the name of balance.

One inherent positive of the game is that it's impossible to favour one side because the basic premise of the game - no hit points, no buffs, no level damage mitigation - never changes, it's still one bullet, one kill.

So unless the suggestion is they individual ballistic/joule or armour thickness data is being amended to bias, allegations of bias don't really stick IMO.


As for minor supply changes, whilst I can sympathise, I'm drawn back to the question - what would you do if you ran a game, and that game relies on players self-balancing numbers, but the players won'

t balance numbers as might be ideal? In the knowledge that the game experience for underpop side that is continually struggling or repeatedly losing is pretty poor?

I don't know what changes have been made to supply lists now or in past years, I've never been overly interested in going through the data. But I think I can say I'd completely understand minor tweaks being made if the game is beginning to feel like its listing too heavily to one side.

Yeah it would be ideal for the supply lists and movement timers to always be the same but it would be equally ideal for players to self-correct population imbalance and for squads to be aware enough of the wider need for an approximately equal win ratio.

We can't bemoan one whilst not doing anything about the other

SWG > Aces High > WWIIOL

  anfiach`

Novice Member

Joined: 10/03/06
Posts: 111

2/14/13 1:03:05 PM#65
You guys are entitled to your opinions, I simply contend that you are wrong. CRS monitors things too closely for me to believe that they accidentally make changes that completely flip things around. Consistently. It goes far beyond balance. The only way to get 50/50 in the W/L column is by manipulating the results.
  BodkinBarber

Novice Member

Joined: 1/18/13
Posts: 113

2/14/13 1:08:15 PM#66
Originally posted by Silky303

If - big 'if,' I accept - you take Antwerp as a one off error or glitch or unfortunate turn of events, I think you'd be hard pressed to throw too much criticism at CRS for tweaks made in the name of balance.

One inherent positive of the game is that it's impossible to favour one side because the basic premise of the game - no hit points, no buffs, no level damage mitigation - never changes, it's still one bullet, one kill.

So unless the suggestion is they individual ballistic/joule or armour thickness data is being amended to bias, allegations of bias don't really stick IMO.


As for minor supply changes, whilst I can sympathise, I'm drawn back to the question - what would you do if you ran a game, and that game relies on players self-balancing numbers, but the players won'

t balance numbers as might be ideal? In the knowledge that the game experience for underpop side that is continually struggling or repeatedly losing is pretty poor?

I don't know what changes have been made to supply lists now or in past years, I've never been overly interested in going through the data. But I think I can say I'd completely understand minor tweaks being made if the game is beginning to feel like its listing too heavily to one side.

Yeah it would be ideal for the supply lists and movement timers to always be the same but it would be equally ideal for players to self-correct population imbalance and for squads to be aware enough of the wider need for an approximately equal win ratio.

We can't bemoan one whilst not doing anything about the other

The issue though is that it was so (or appears to be - 'if') blatant. I would say it is one thing giving a side 2 more tanks in an armoured brigade or a few more top fighters in a tier but it is another thing to directly intervene in a battle. Even if you intervene in the game in a pro-interventionist manner you still have to sit back and let the players be the ones to determine what happens. After all the frontlines should be determined by the result of battles and players actions not what the developers see as best. When they do that they lose one of the biggest aspect of the game that is the actions of players affect the game for days and weeks.

 

If we look into the issue of 'what would we do' in the same situations then it is an interesting policy to explore, after all if one side consistenly wins, e.g. 80% of the time then that does harm the game. Concerning the self balancing squads have been dynamic in the past in switching to the losing side. However you do get non squad affiliated players joining the winning side, something of which I believe can be reduced with a 'carrot and stick' approach (which I look to propose soon). Though these are often not the best players, more casual ones. Also, victory after victory does not always mean that a side plays better and better. After a string of victories players get complacent. They stop guarding FB's, defending that spawnable depot, running that fru etc and some might get bored of 'easier' victories that give them less reward. Thus I believe the game is quite self balancing and can become more so if they were to add some new game mechanics (for lack of a better word).

 

I can only speak for myself on supply changes thus I would say minor tweaks should be undertaken only when a number of conditions have been met:

a) One side has repeately lost multiple campaigns (e.g. 4) within a period of time

b) 'Softer' options of side rebalances e.g. changing capture timers, FRU timers, the proportion of allied/axis FB's on server resets etc have been fully exhausted (to a respectable degree, maximun of say 45 seconds decrease on cp's and fru's)

c) Any changes in supply (or game mechanics e.g. RDP) are publically announced and not covertly done behind the scenes (with anyone who points them out is not accused of being a liar even when the facts are clear for everyone to see).

 

Supply changes IMO should be the last thing undertaken and when they are undertaken they should be told to everyone

 

* To clarify used your post to expand the discussion and was not attacking (nor accusing you of doing so)

  Silky303

Novice Member

Joined: 10/30/10
Posts: 137

2/14/13 2:13:59 PM#67
Originally posted by BodkinBarber

The issue though is that it was so (or appears to be - 'if') blatant. I would say it is one thing giving a side 2 more tanks in an armoured brigade or a few more top fighters in a tier but it is another thing to directly intervene in a battle. Even if you intervene in the game in a pro-interventionist manner you still have to sit back and let the players be the ones to determine what happens. After all the frontlines should be determined by the result of battles and players actions not what the developers see as best. When they do that they lose one of the biggest aspect of the game that is the actions of players affect the game for days and weeks.

 

If we look into the issue of 'what would we do' in the same situations then it is an interesting policy to explore, after all if one side consistenly wins, e.g. 80% of the time then that does harm the game. Concerning the self balancing squads have been dynamic in the past in switching to the losing side. However you do get non squad affiliated players joining the winning side, something of which I believe can be reduced with a 'carrot and stick' approach (which I look to propose soon). Though these are often not the best players, more casual ones. Also, victory after victory does not always mean that a side plays better and better. After a string of victories players get complacent. They stop guarding FB's, defending that spawnable depot, running that fru etc and some might get bored of 'easier' victories that give them less reward. Thus I believe the game is quite self balancing and can become more so if they were to add some new game mechanics (for lack of a better word).

 

I can only speak for myself on supply changes thus I would say minor tweaks should be undertaken only when a number of conditions have been met:

a) One side has repeately lost multiple campaigns (e.g. 4) within a period of time

b) 'Softer' options of side rebalances e.g. changing capture timers, FRU timers, the proportion of allied/axis FB's on server resets etc have been fully exhausted (to a respectable degree, maximun of say 45 seconds decrease on cp's and fru's)

c) Any changes in supply (or game mechanics e.g. RDP) are publically announced and not covertly done behind the scenes (with anyone who points them out is not accused of being a liar even when the facts are clear for everyone to see).

 

Supply changes IMO should be the last thing undertaken and when they are undertaken they should be told to everyone

 

I completely agree about direct intervention, which is why I prefaced my statement with the Antwerp 'if'

I'd also completely agree with the desire for public, open game rule, mechanic and supply information. There have been calls for an open rule book for years, and it's unfortunate that game elements like Fallback rules, resupply timers, FRU mechanics etc sort of lurk under the bonnet

What I'd suggest you overlook though is the damaging effect of continued - and expected - loss. This game is all about momentum, and starting a campaign expecting to lose is a real challenge. Once you start to bleed players, to the other side and to other games, you really are on a hiding to nothing

SWG > Aces High > WWIIOL

  pittpete

Novice Member

Joined: 6/04/10
Posts: 243

2/14/13 4:22:35 PM#68

Bodkin, your post is 100% spot on.

Couldn't have wrote it better myself.

  Ozivois

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/17/10
Posts: 602

2/14/13 4:26:54 PM#69
Did OP think about the fact that Axis were also out of supply in Nadrin?
  anfiach`

Novice Member

Joined: 10/03/06
Posts: 111

2/14/13 7:54:20 PM#70
Originally posted by Silky303


Yeah it would be ideal for the supply lists and movement timers to always be the same but it would be equally ideal for players to self-correct population imbalance and for squads to be aware enough of the wider need for an approximately equal win ratio.

Supply has never been tweaked to account for population imbalances, it has only been discussed as a possibility. Balance is allowing both sides equal ability given equal numbers. Tweaking the numbers beyond that point of balance to affect outcomes is meddling.

Squads need to be aware? What would you have them do, throw the map? So now we are to the point of patronizing the underdogs to make them feel good? Fixed outcomes leaves players with no reason to invest effort in the game on either side.

You are advocating for interference. Even admitting that it happens. You're simply trying to qualify it as balancing. Balancing ensures equal opportunity, meddling ensures equal outcomes.

  Silky303

Novice Member

Joined: 10/30/10
Posts: 137

2/15/13 12:45:13 AM#71
If I ran a game and a side won 10 in a row and I was seeing the other side spiral into a player exodus vicious circle, I'd probably consider tweaks

In the same if I'm having a soccer kick about with matesand we're 10 - 0 up, I'd think about adjusting the sides to even it out

SWG > Aces High > WWIIOL

  Silky303

Novice Member

Joined: 10/30/10
Posts: 137

2/15/13 12:46:20 AM#72
And my point about squads was that they should switch sides more often rather than appear happy to club baby seals in the name of victory

SWG > Aces High > WWIIOL

  Hodo

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/05/08
Posts: 559

2/15/13 8:10:46 AM#73
Originally posted by Silky303
If I ran a game and a side won 10 in a row and I was seeing the other side spiral into a player exodus vicious circle, I'd probably consider tweaks

In the same if I'm having a soccer kick about with matesand we're 10 - 0 up, I'd think about adjusting the sides to even it out

 

The subject of bias on CRS's part comes up when "the shoe is on the other foot".  

 

For the first few years of TO&E and the Tier system CRS constantly adjusted the AXIS and ALLIED tables so they could balance out the sides.    It got so bad at one point to where the AXIS didnt have the 109 until Tier 1, and Tier 0 lasted close to three weeks before the RDP would kick to Tier 1.    Which often meant there was NO Axis airforce/Luftwaffa until 3 to 4 weeks after the campaign started.   If the campaign made it that far the Axis would usually be backed into the handful of towns on the eastern edge of the map.    CRS for a good while, almost a full year refused to put the 109 back into tier 0, but kept the Spitfire and the P36 Hawk in tier 0.    So the Axis side was forced to dogfight, with Bf-110Cs, which anyone who flew in the game knew, was a HORRIBLE fighter, and no match for the Spitfire, Hurricane, and P36.   Then there was the historical precedent of it, Tier 0 is supposedly the May 1940 tables, which meant the Bf-109E1 and E4 were in service and in use.   At the time we only had the E4 modeled, and even DOC himself that there was in sevice at that point, and I could comfirm this along with several other players.    But after about 3 map wins in a row they removed the 109 and left the Spitfire MkI, and the Hurricane MkI, and the P36 Hawk.   Not to meantion the DB-7, which was faster than a Bf-110C.  

 

I remember saying in the Playskool forums before it was locked and deleted, "The DB-7 was in VERY limited numbers in France, less than the 109E4. There were only 64 used, and none of them actually seen action, they were evacuated to North Africa.   And the British didnt get them until 1941, almost a full year after the Battle Of France..." 

 

 

So much crap, so little quality.

  Silky303

Novice Member

Joined: 10/30/10
Posts: 137

2/15/13 12:52:20 PM#74
Originally posted by Hodo
Originally posted by Silky303
If I ran a game and a side won 10 in a row and I was seeing the other side spiral into a player exodus vicious circle, I'd probably consider tweaks

In the same if I'm having a soccer kick about with matesand we're 10 - 0 up, I'd think about adjusting the sides to even it out

 

The subject of bias on CRS's part comes up when "the shoe is on the other foot".  

 

For the first few years of TO&E and the Tier system CRS constantly adjusted the AXIS and ALLIED tables so they could balance out the sides.    It got so bad at one point to where the AXIS didnt have the 109 until Tier 1, and Tier 0 lasted close to three weeks before the RDP would kick to Tier 1.    Which often meant there was NO Axis airforce/Luftwaffa until 3 to 4 weeks after the campaign started.   If the campaign made it that far the Axis would usually be backed into the handful of towns on the eastern edge of the map.    CRS for a good while, almost a full year refused to put the 109 back into tier 0, but kept the Spitfire and the P36 Hawk in tier 0.    So the Axis side was forced to dogfight, with Bf-110Cs, which anyone who flew in the game knew, was a HORRIBLE fighter, and no match for the Spitfire, Hurricane, and P36.   Then there was the historical precedent of it, Tier 0 is supposedly the May 1940 tables, which meant the Bf-109E1 and E4 were in service and in use.   At the time we only had the E4 modeled, and even DOC himself that there was in sevice at that point, and I could comfirm this along with several other players.    But after about 3 map wins in a row they removed the 109 and left the Spitfire MkI, and the Hurricane MkI, and the P36 Hawk.   Not to meantion the DB-7, which was faster than a Bf-110C.  

 

I remember saying in the Playskool forums before it was locked and deleted, "The DB-7 was in VERY limited numbers in France, less than the 109E4. There were only 64 used, and none of them actually seen action, they were evacuated to North Africa.   And the British didnt get them until 1941, almost a full year after the Battle Of France..." 

 

 

My post wasn't side specific. I trust the Rats don't care which side's in the ascendency as long as one side doesn't dominate that position, simply because one side dominating impacts player retention for the other side

SWG > Aces High > WWIIOL

  pittpete

Novice Member

Joined: 6/04/10
Posts: 243

2/15/13 6:11:15 PM#75
Originally posted by Silky303
If I ran a game and a side won 10 in a row and I was seeing the other side spiral into a player exodus vicious circle, I'd probably consider tweaks

In the same if I'm having a soccer kick about with matesand we're 10 - 0 up, I'd think about adjusting the sides to even it out

Silk, nothing wrong with tweaks

I think when it comes down to it the playerbase would understand and accept it as long as it was announced publicly.

Adding a few tanks here, a few planes there is nothing.

Interfering with town captures leaves a lot of explaining to do and is damaging to the game.

Case in point

  Silky303

Novice Member

Joined: 10/30/10
Posts: 137

2/16/13 1:25:49 AM#76
I'd agree Pete

And I bet if we were able to go back in time things would be done differently

SWG > Aces High > WWIIOL

  mline

Novice Member

Joined: 1/20/13
Posts: 14

2/16/13 3:51:23 AM#77
Instead of doc literally pulling the plug when a breaktout is imminent, why doesnt he be pro-active in the community and organise frequent Allied OPs, and free accounts for notable Allied leaders and absent vets, and try himself to organise/create new Allied mega squads like AEF instead of having the flogged out vets like jsilic do it themselves? Itd be alot more positive than trying to guilt one side into throwing a campaign, or interevening through convenient server resets.
  Silky303

Novice Member

Joined: 10/30/10
Posts: 137

2/16/13 6:17:23 AM#78
How do you seriously think dev-led squad merges/pushes and ops would go down?

Hint - like a crap sandwich

SWG > Aces High > WWIIOL

  mline

Novice Member

Joined: 1/20/13
Posts: 14

2/16/13 10:15:40 AM#79
Really? In what way then? Having a big name in game trying to rally your team and rebuild it would be alot less patronising than plug pulling or guilting a winning side into throwing a few campaigns for the weaker side wouldnt it? In any case it'd be better than whats been happening for the last 10 campaigns. And Im pretty sure xoom has led a few OPs since becoming a  for both sides when things were tuff which were great initiatives.
  Silky303

Novice Member

Joined: 10/30/10
Posts: 137

2/16/13 12:04:27 PM#80
Originally posted by mline
Really? In what way then? Having a big name in game trying to rally your team and rebuild it would be alot less patronising than plug pulling or guilting a winning side into throwing a few campaigns for the weaker side wouldnt it? In any case it'd be better than whats been happening for the last 10 campaigns. And Im pretty sure xoom has led a few OPs since becoming a  for both sides when things were tuff which were great initiatives.

well, that's one man's take I guess. I sometimes see a different, more skeptical response.

 

And if CRS started to meddle in squad merges and dissolution I assure you the rage threads would come thick and faster than they did over server shutdowns mid-capture.

SWG > Aces High > WWIIOL

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