I havent played with the 4th edition rules , so maybe my thinking is flawed or these things simply does not exist in 4th edition. Alas I have read articles and watched some videos explaning some of it's diffrences compared to 3.5 ed rules etc.

I also hear alot of folks talk about how 4th edition rules "was designed with MMO's or computer roleplaying in mind" I think this is a comment or rumour created by all the negative critique that followed this ruleset when it was released.

So now it's used in defence of Cryptic's action game. As I see it , it was never a real plan for this edition, sure It was more action oriented and streamlined for easier play, and monsters have far less hp so that the "heroes" should feel more "heroic" etc. But I don't belive you design Pen & Paper rules so that you can create computer games easier with a D&D brand. Atlest give me some valid links that points out that this is the case.

Also, the game looks fun, and in a very narrow minded world this should be the only thing that matters, I'm sure it is fun, we have seen several videos and testamonies towards the truth in this, but for how long ?

If there isn't any sort of tactical dept and/or a mix of what makes D&D the great game it has always been. 4th edition rules was more/less a failed attempt , was it not ? A glorious way for Paizo to sell more of Pathfinder RPG. Why would any company base their product upon a failed game product ?

My concerns are:

1. No tactical planning, ea what spells shall my Wizard pick for this particular ruthless challenge, If you have a control Wizard you have a control wizard, you can't change or meditate/rest and choose web instead of magic missile for instance. This for me is a huge D&D factor, the tactical plannig before a big dungeon crawl, the choices that you will have to live with during an adventure. DDO has these choices, but as far as I can tell Neverwinter does not.

2. No or very little traps that actually mean something, dangerous traps that completly blocks of the party unless they have a rouge in the party, this can naturally be in game, but not in the hour's long footages I have seen, all I saw was that the rouge was "able to steal stuff" ..Steal stuff is just a class bonus" wich i'm sure is added to the other classes in other form of bonuses. I see that the mage has arcane treasures for instance. DDO has these things and plenty of it aswell, from what I can tell Neverwinter does not have it or very little (Bill mentions that a previous dungeon was set up with traps)

3. Puzzle dungeons, use your party to progress, solve clever riddles etc . this may very well be in game, but then it makes me wonder why they are showcasing a dungeon that let's your party walk in a straight line from Boss A to Boss B without anykind of obstackles to overcome but monsters. Sure here we have the Foundry, but If the original game design doesnt have these , Im very sceptical towards the limitations in this Foundry aswell. Again DDO has alot of these clever little dungeons.

4 . Multiclassing ..Not really needed, but a great way of making a game with even more tactical dept.

I'm not saying that the game has to be "turn based" or such, but for me It has to have atleast some of the above, othervise it becomes just another action title among the otheres

i dont think people say 4th edition was desigened for easier transition into a videgame, but rather that it was designed to somewhat emulate videogame play at the expense of traditional DnD play style. 

as far as why they would base it upon a failed prduct, well its the most current edition, is it not? maybe that is part of the licensing agreement. seems unlikely they would have wanted to use THACO anyway lol

the game might be fun, im going to wait a bit before i bother with it personally. all other things being the same though, without the DnD name attached to it, would it even have a third of what attention its getting now?

Originally posted by thark

I havent played with the 4th edition rules , so maybe my thinking is flawed or these things simply does not exist in 4th edition. Alas I have read articles and watched some videos explaning some of it's diffrences compared to 3.5 ed rules etc.

I also hear alot of folks talk about how 4th edition rules "was designed with MMO's or computer roleplaying in mind" I think this is a comment or rumour created by all the negative critique that followed this ruleset when it was released.

So now it's used in defence of Cryptic's action game. As I see it , it was never a real plan for this edition, sure It was more action oriented and streamlined for easier play, and monsters have far less hp so that the "heroes" should feel more "heroic" etc. But I don't belive you design Pen & Paper rules so that you can create computer games easier with a D&D brand. Atlest give me some valid links that points out that this is the case.

Also, the game looks fun, and in a very narrow minded world this should be the only thing that matters, I'm sure it is fun, we have seen several videos and testamonies towards the truth in this, but for how long ?

If there isn't any sort of tactical dept and/or a mix of what makes D&D the great game it has always been. 4th edition rules was more/less a failed attempt , was it not ? A glorious way for Paizo to sell more of Pathfinder RPG. Why would any company base their product upon a failed game product ?

My concerns are:

1. No tactical planning, ea what spells shall my Wizard pick for this particular ruthless challenge, If you have a control Wizard you have a control wizard, you can't change or meditate/rest and choose web instead of magic missile for instance. This for me is a huge D&D factor, the tactical plannig before a big dungeon crawl, the choices that you will have to live with during an adventure. DDO has these choices, but as far as I can tell Neverwinter does not. The magic casting hasnt been based on medetation in 2 versions.

2. No or very little traps that actually mean something, dangerous traps that completly blocks of the party unless they have a rouge in the party, this can naturally be in game, but not in the hour's long footages I have seen, all I saw was that the rouge was "able to steal stuff" ..Steal stuff is just a class bonus" wich i'm sure is added to the other classes in other form of bonuses. I see that the mage has arcane treasures for instance. DDO has these things and plenty of it aswell, from what I can tell Neverwinter does not have it or very little (Bill mentions that a previous dungeon was set up with traps) This is low levels, nothing will kill you outright.  But I assure you getting him by a trap means something to everyone who's ever played a D&D game.

3. Puzzle dungeons, use your party to progress, solve clever riddles etc . this may very well be in game, but then it makes me wonder why they are chowcasing a dungeon that let's your party walk in a straight line from Boss A to Bossb without anykind of obstackles to overcome but monsters. Sure here we have the Foundry, but If the original game design doesnt have these , Im very sceptical towards the limitations in this Foundry aswell. Again DDO has alot of these clever little dungeons. Those are in game again this is all low levels wait a while and let the whole of the encounters come alive.

4 . Multiclassing ..Not really needed, but a great way of making a game with even more tactical dept. Will come post launch and if you listened to Totalbiscuit's video you know at aroudn the 40 min mark theres a lengthy discussion of classes and races.

I'm not saying that the game has to be "turn based" or such, but for me It has to have atleast some of the above, othervise it becomes just another action title among the otheres Same action gameplay thats litters the MMO genre...ohh wait thats right, theres only a handful of MMO's that feature action combat as opposed to the bland boring turn based roll a die whack a mole tab target combat.

Thark is right overall, but how I adjust myself is take the name out of it. This game is more 3rd person Diablo then DnD. So you ask yourself, do I want to play a 3rd person Diablo game?

And as you reffered to several times, DDO is under rated and their dungeon and character variations are second to none. I always go back there, but that doesn't mean I will not enjoy "3rd Person Diablo meets Neverwinter". But I have mad respect for what DDO became, even though that isn't traditional PnP DnD.

Originally posted by HorrorScope

Thark is right overall, but how I adjust myself is take the name out of it. This game is more 3rd person Diablo then DnD. So you ask yourself, do I want to play a 3rd person Diablo game?

And as you reffered to several times, DDO is under rated and their dungeon and character variations are second to none. I always go back there, but that doesn't mean I will not enjoy "3rd Person Diablo meets Neverwinter". But I have mad respect for what DDO became, even though that isn't traditional PnP DnD.

 Yes As I said...The Diablo aspect of this game may be fun, evidently it is fun according to various players that had the chance to test it..All shown in several hour long footages showcasing the cloak tower dungeon

But since it is D&D I would come to expect a proper D&D game, this makes me convinced that Cryptic only uses D&D for a quick cash grab , if their game wasnt titled D&D how many would have even looked at this game ?

Originally posted by thark

Originally posted by HorrorScope

Thark is right overall, but how I adjust myself is take the name out of it. This game is more 3rd person Diablo then DnD. So you ask yourself, do I want to play a 3rd person Diablo game?

And as you reffered to several times, DDO is under rated and their dungeon and character variations are second to none. I always go back there, but that doesn't mean I will not enjoy "3rd Person Diablo meets Neverwinter". But I have mad respect for what DDO became, even though that isn't traditional PnP DnD.

 Yes As I said...The Diablo aspect of this game may be fun, evidently it is fun according to various players that had the chance to test it..All shown in several hour long footages showcasing the cloak tower dungeon

But since it is D&D I would come to expect a proper D&D game, this makes me convinced that Cryptic only uses D&D for a quick cash grab , if their game wasnt titled D&D how many would have even looked at this game ?

Then I guess we should give them +1 for marketing. Also it took two. WoC gave it up as well, they could have said no thanks.

Originally posted by HorrorScope

Thark is right overall, but how I adjust myself is take the name out of it. This game is more 3rd person Diablo then DnD. So you ask yourself, do I want to play a 3rd person Diablo game?

And as you reffered to several times, DDO is under rated and their dungeon and character variations are second to none. I always go back there, but that doesn't mean I will not enjoy "3rd Person Diablo meets Neverwinter". But I have mad respect for what DDO became, even though that isn't traditional PnP DnD.

If they ever used DDOs system with an open world ... oh man.

As someone who has played DnD for 30 years I will say 4th edition was and still is my favorite edition by far. Yes it streamlined the rules it gave set abilities for characters but in doing so it created a large amount of diversity between the characters. As far as being less tactical that is completely false,  the combat was made very tactical and closely resembles tabletop wargames. Positioning became much more important while older editions favored more narrative gameplay. I am  also an avid table top wargamer and 4th could easily pass for a table top wargame. That being said you still have the option of playing a narrative style game if you wish.

players in 4th felt more heroic because they are actually given heroic types of abilities starting at level 1. Also it included minions for as adversaries as well as elite mobs. People who claim the game was nothing more than hack and slash need to blame their GM and the RPGA for encouraging the DnD weekly encounter playstyle instead of running a good old fashion campaign.

Originally posted by thark

My concerns are:

1. No tactical planning, ea what spells shall my Wizard pick for this particular ruthless challenge, If you have a control Wizard you have a control wizard, you can't change or meditate/rest and choose web instead of magic missile for instance. This for me is a huge D&D factor, the tactical plannig before a big dungeon crawl, the choices that you will have to live with during an adventure. DDO has these choices, but as far as I can tell Neverwinter does not.

You do have this.  As a matter of fact, our cleric stopped our party before doing the final fight in The Cloak Tower so that he could swap out spells.  As a guardian fighting with two other guardians, I swapped out two attacks - whereas in AD&D you would never do this, or have it required.

2. No or very little traps that actually mean something, dangerous traps that completly blocks of the party unless they have a rouge in the party, this can naturally be in game, but not in the hour's long footages I have seen, all I saw was that the rouge was "able to steal stuff" ..Steal stuff is just a class bonus" wich i'm sure is added to the other classes in other form of bonuses. I see that the mage has arcane treasures for instance. DDO has these things and plenty of it aswell, from what I can tell Neverwinter does not have it or very little (Bill mentions that a previous dungeon was set up with traps)

There are traps, but nothing that stops a party from progressing.  It's good and bad.  In DDO you have some killer traps... so parties can't do a dungeon unless you have someone to do the traps.

3. Puzzle dungeons, use your party to progress, solve clever riddles etc . this may very well be in game, but then it makes me wonder why they are showcasing a dungeon that let's your party walk in a straight line from Boss A to Boss B without anykind of obstackles to overcome but monsters. Sure here we have the Foundry, but If the original game design doesnt have these , Im very sceptical towards the limitations in this Foundry aswell. Again DDO has alot of these clever little dungeons.

Puzzles are really not good for MMO's because people share the information anyway.  There are some puzzles, just nothing in that particular dungeon - though there are some side things that you miss if you don't look around.

4 . Multiclassing ..Not really needed, but a great way of making a game with even more tactical dept.

I enjoy it as well, but it's not a 4E thing.  I miss being a half-elf Figher/Magic-User/Cleric half-elf, but take it up with WOTC.

Originally posted by ignore_me

Originally posted by HorrorScope

Thark is right overall, but how I adjust myself is take the name out of it. This game is more 3rd person Diablo then DnD. So you ask yourself, do I want to play a 3rd person Diablo game?

And as you reffered to several times, DDO is under rated and their dungeon and character variations are second to none. I always go back there, but that doesn't mean I will not enjoy "3rd Person Diablo meets Neverwinter". But I have mad respect for what DDO became, even though that isn't traditional PnP DnD.

If they ever used DDOs system with an open world ... oh man.

I've mentioned to Turbine a dozen times, marry LOTRO and DDO together into one. LOTRO's Open World and DDO's dungeons. The only thing in the way is years and millions.

Originally posted by thark

I havent played with the 4th edition rules , so maybe my thinking is flawed or these things simply does not exist in 4th edition. Alas I have read articles and watched some videos explaning some of it's diffrences compared to 3.5 ed rules etc.

I also hear alot of folks talk about how 4th edition rules "was designed with MMO's or computer roleplaying in mind" I think this is a comment or rumour created by all the negative critique that followed this ruleset when it was released.

So now it's used in defence of Cryptic's action game. As I see it , it was never a real plan for this edition, sure It was more action oriented and streamlined for easier play, and monsters have far less hp so that the "heroes" should feel more "heroic" etc. But I don't belive you design Pen & Paper rules so that you can create computer games easier with a D&D brand. Atlest give me some valid links that points out that this is the case.

Also, the game looks fun, and in a very narrow minded world this should be the only thing that matters, I'm sure it is fun, we have seen several videos and testamonies towards the truth in this, but for how long ?

If there isn't any sort of tactical dept and/or a mix of what makes D&D the great game it has always been. 4th edition rules was more/less a failed attempt , was it not ? A glorious way for Paizo to sell more of Pathfinder RPG. Why would any company base their product upon a failed game product ?

My concerns are:

1. No tactical planning, ea what spells shall my Wizard pick for this particular ruthless challenge, If you have a control Wizard you have a control wizard, you can't change or meditate/rest and choose web instead of magic missile for instance. This for me is a huge D&D factor, the tactical plannig before a big dungeon crawl, the choices that you will have to live with during an adventure. DDO has these choices, but as far as I can tell Neverwinter does not.

Five minutes watching a gameplay video where anyone is playing a devoted priest or control wizard would prove your first statement wrong, there's a list of powers you choose from those listed and to save time (ie to function like any normal game much less mmorpg should one can do this on the fly). Waiting 1 hour after changing a power or a whole day doesn't really fit with RL needs.

2. No or very little traps that actually mean something, dangerous traps that completly blocks of the party unless they have a rouge in the party, this can naturally be in game, but not in the hour's long footages I have seen, all I saw was that the rouge was "able to steal stuff" ..Steal stuff is just a class bonus" wich i'm sure is added to the other classes in other form of bonuses. I see that the mage has arcane treasures for instance. DDO has these things and plenty of it aswell, from what I can tell Neverwinter does not have it or very little (Bill mentions that a previous dungeon was set up with traps)

Well so far the only traps I've seen have been those in the solo missions, everything else I've seen has been a single dungeon. Traps are a bit difficult to do in dungeons so I give props they are in there at all. I do love how you have to have specific classes with you to get items throughout the dungeons like hidden rooms with treasure chests. That was a nice touch.

3. Puzzle dungeons, use your party to progress, solve clever riddles etc . this may very well be in game, but then it makes me wonder why they are showcasing a dungeon that let's your party walk in a straight line from Boss A to Boss B without anykind of obstackles to overcome but monsters. Sure here we have the Foundry, but If the original game design doesnt have these , Im very sceptical towards the limitations in this Foundry aswell. Again DDO has alot of these clever little dungeons.

No one's seen enough of the game to know if this is in there yet. I believe since WoC is there with every step of the dev teams progress in making this, that they most likely added some of these to some of the group challenges.

4 . Multiclassing ..Not really needed, but a great way of making a game with even more tactical dept.

Not really the best thing tried it on DDO was a jack of all trades couldn't really progress well with much of the setup and then there's the dealing with if people clicked on the wrong thing problem. It's never fun to have to respec because you pressed the wrong button especially if you have to pay for the respec with real money.

I'm not saying that the game has to be "turn based" or such, but for me It has to have atleast some of the above, othervise it becomes just another action title among the otheres

I think they did well.

I also think that 4th edition is definitely more of an mmo style ruleset because of the way they separate powers and feats. It's pretty obvious.

Originally posted by thark

But since it is D&D I would come to expect a proper D&D game, this makes me convinced that Cryptic only uses D&D for a quick cash grab , if their game wasnt titled D&D how many would have even looked at this game ?

When you say cashgrab.....

I think of telling everyone your game is dynamic enough to allow for everyone's playstyle and then stealth nerfing loot prior to releasing dungeons with a gear treadmill you said you would never use in your title. That's a cashgrab. And that's what Arenanet did. It's a bait and switch.

What Cryptic is doing is no different then what LOTRO's been doing for years now, selling content. It's no different then indie companies asking for starter cash. If it's anything like how PW saved STO it's going to be nice.

It's mdae by Cryptic.  They don't make games with depth, they don't make games with deep systems, they don't make games that are open ended.  They make simple minded, action orientated linear grindfests.  So it is what it is.  This game has more in common with Guild Wars 2 than it does actual D&D.  Maybe they should have called it  "inspired by D&D" .

Sure Turbin'es D&D Online has more meat on it's bone when it comes to actual D&D systems and such, but that was never the intent of Crytpic.  They set out to create a fast paced, action game in Neverwinter and that is pretty much what they did.

It looks kind of fun.  I am not sure if it is a game that people will be playing for years but I could see myself getting a good couple of months out of it, maybe a bit more if the Foundry works out as planned (that is a big if though).  At the very least it will last as long as GW2 did for me (which was about two weeks)....and while well all know it is not "free" you can do a few weeks of it free and get a sense of how the game will play out.

In thinking about traps in instances a few things occur to me:

1.  Must have a rogue or we can't do X content... is bad in an MMO.  It's bad with any class.  Must have rogue or X content is harder is ok.

2.  Trap goes off = party dies every time... is not fun.

3.  Just wait there for a couple of minutes while I, the rogue, check the area ahead for traps... is also not fun.

But, there may be a solution.  Traps with effects that happen over time.  Here are a couple examples:

1.  You're fighting a pack of baddies when the healer accidentally triggers a trap and walls on each side start to lift releasing monsters.  The walls lift slowly and at first only small mobs (a couple of small spiders) can get out and join the fray... if the trap continues to go off then soon a few goblins will be able to get out and finally a couple of hard hitting. regenerating trolls would join the fight.  Nice slow release where the trap gets progressively meaner the longer it is allowed to go on.  Then the trap dynamic would be that a rogue would be able to find the trap mechanism and stop it.  In this case your rogue would have to make the choice between peeling off the pack of baddies you're killing to shut down the trap or try and kill the pack you're on first before making a dash for the trap before the trolls escaped.

You could use the same basic idea with other classes too... magic traps that only wizards could disable once the cascade had started, divine ones for clerics, etc.  This way the flow of gameplay, rather than being interuppted by, incorporates the trap mechanic.  Just a thought.

Edit:  You could also add traps that add mechanics to the fight like raining fire that you have to move out of, pulses of frost that breifly freeze you in place, etc.

Originally posted by Fendel84M
The game is shit loads of fun is all I know! I can't believe how much fun

mind expanded on that?:)

Originally posted by Aerowyn

Originally posted by Fendel84M
The game is shit loads of fun is all I know! I can't believe how much fun

mind expanded on that?:)

Yes, please. We are listening.

Originally posted by itgrowls

Originally posted by thark

But since it is D&D I would come to expect a proper D&D game, this makes me convinced that Cryptic only uses D&D for a quick cash grab , if their game wasnt titled D&D how many would have even looked at this game ?

When you say cashgrab.....

I think of telling everyone your game is dynamic enough to allow for everyone's playstyle and then stealth nerfing loot prior to releasing dungeons with a gear treadmill you said you would never use in your title. That's a cashgrab. And that's what Arenanet did. It's a bait and switch.

What Cryptic is doing is no different then what LOTRO's been doing for years now, selling content. It's no different then indie companies asking for starter cash. If it's anything like how PW saved STO it's going to be nice.

Originally posted by thark

Originally posted by HorrorScope

Thark is right overall, but how I adjust myself is take the name out of it. This game is more 3rd person Diablo then DnD. So you ask yourself, do I want to play a 3rd person Diablo game?

And as you reffered to several times, DDO is under rated and their dungeon and character variations are second to none. I always go back there, but that doesn't mean I will not enjoy "3rd Person Diablo meets Neverwinter". But I have mad respect for what DDO became, even though that isn't traditional PnP DnD.

 Yes As I said...The Diablo aspect of this game may be fun, evidently it is fun according to various players that had the chance to test it..All shown in several hour long footages showcasing the cloak tower dungeon

But since it is D&D I would come to expect a proper D&D game, this makes me convinced that Cryptic only uses D&D for a quick cash grab , if their game wasnt titled D&D how many would have even looked at this game ?

A proper D&D game you say...