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News & Features Discussion  » [Column] General: I Failed... Now What?

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82 posts found
  Theodwulf

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/01/12
Posts: 208

2/09/13 6:18:33 AM#41

  I get their thinking... trying to get people to raid ..ie use content they wouldn't otherwise  use.  They are making a "safety net" so first timers or those timid of temper tantrums will take a chance and go raiding.

 

  What many of you don't get.. the 133t players are so obnoxious that Blizzard had to add a feature in to get people to play with them, that a wipe doesn't cause "n00bslaya123" to have a stroke and go on a 4-hour rant on why all casuals should kill themselves..

  The biggest problem with MMOs is the core audience, they drive off normal people, they make the game unfun for normal people.. Blizzard is trying to come up with a solution for that issue.

  User Deleted
2/09/13 7:06:10 AM#42
Originally posted by Theodwulf

  I get their thinking... trying to get people to raid ..ie use content they wouldn't otherwise  use.  They are making a "safety net" so first timers or those timid of temper tantrums will take a chance and go raiding.

 

  What many of you don't get.. the 133t players are so obnoxious that Blizzard had to add a feature in to get people to play with them, that a wipe doesn't cause "n00bslaya123" to have a stroke and go on a 4-hour rant on why all casuals should kill themselves..

  The biggest problem with MMOs is the core audience, they drive off normal people, they make the game unfun for normal people.. Blizzard is trying to come up with a solution for that issue.

i just heard that AC Milan and Barcelona are starting use that system also,because its for normal people.

I heard that next time if they lose a match then their players get a skill buff.

  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

2/09/13 7:13:22 AM#43
Originally posted by WellzyC

Raid Finder... ?

Christ almighty..

DO we even want to PLAY mmos anymore?

Yes. But gamers don't tend to be long on...social skills.

(They're only "lazy and disconnected" because you choose to assign those terms to your man of straw. Having never met them, I can't really guess their motives or habits as individuals.)

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  Kyleran

Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 19226

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

2/09/13 7:15:12 AM#44
So, this only applies to raids put together via the raidfimder tool? I can see it now, people telling their guild raid leader they aren't coming to tonights raid because it well easierand faster to complete it with a PUG group than to struggle through it with the guild. I hope the decide to Nerf the rewards or something or I can actually see this scenario happening.

Arrogant, Condescending, Dismissive, Elitist, "Meany", you speak as if these are bad things?
Kyleran - Bitter Vet ™ since 2006
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  Foncl

Novice Member

Joined: 11/14/11
Posts: 186

2/09/13 7:17:13 AM#45

What I don't understand is how people can level up a character to max level and do the normal dungeons without learning the basics of how to play their class. Actually I can sort of understand it now, seeing how childishly simple the dungeons in the panda expansion are.

 

Raidfinder is already extremely simple, all it takes is that everyone knows the basics of their class to complete it even before this change. The difficulty gap between raid finder raiding and "real raiding" will only increase, so it won't be a good stepping stone for the real thing anymore if you make it too simple.

 

Isn't the leveling up and dungeons enough of a learning process to teach players the basics? Should endgame also be about teaching players the basics of how to play their class?

 

When will the casuals be satisfied? When the whole game is lowered to their level and hardcore players have nothing left to do?

 

Whining from casuals ruined what I liked best in WoW, challenging heroic mode 5-man dungeons. By the looks of it raiding is heading in the same direction, they won't stop until there is no challenge left. Soon noone will fail in Wow, everyone is a winner.
 
 
 
 
 
 
  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

2/09/13 7:29:24 AM#46

They're right about one thing; failure+raiding is a complex issue, particularly with so many veterans who clearly invested so very much ego in their l33tness, for as long as game(rs) have been around.

Responsible for more hate (towards other gamers) and more smarmy insults with our own custom slang than, well, anything.

The last few people who still took raiding in wow seriously will doubtless be leaving the game.

The bad new is, the old-fashioned Hardcore/Casual War (which was actually dying out of everyday forum conversation a bit, after more than a decade) is coming back with no doubt full hurricane strength.

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  Zorgo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/05/05
Posts: 2214

Who did wrong? The advertiser hired to sell the game or the consumer who put faith in advertising?

2/09/13 7:45:10 AM#47
Originally posted by Icewhite

They're right about one thing; failure+raiding is a complex issue, particularly with so many veterans who clearly invested so very much ego in their l33tness, for as long as game(rs) have been around.

Responsible for more hate (towards other gamers) an more smarmy insults with our own custom slang than, well, anything.

The last few people who still took raiding in wow seriously will doubtless be leaving the game.

I think the rationale was to implement the 'challenge' mode for the hardcore and the buff for the kids. 

To an uberl33t trying to break challenge records, this buff mechanic is completely inconsiquential. What I think may force the uber's hand is if enough recognize that with the challenge mode, Blizzard  changed the challenge from 'can we beat it' to 'how fast can we beat it'. Those are two different games imo.

I think far more than the fast xp, dumbing down of old content, and changes to the talent system:

the challenge mode combined with the wipe buff shows that Blizzard has removed the question:

"Can it be done?" from the philosophy of the game.

The new philosophy seems to be, "You know you won't fail, so challenge yourself to go faster".

 

Blech.

_______________________________________________

  tordurbar

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/02/10
Posts: 407

2/09/13 8:08:30 AM#48

This is ironic. I just read an article on another site blasting the fact that WOW did not get easier!

Actually "the wipe to get ahead" idea sounds interesting if I ever returned to WOW, but that will not be in the forseeable future. This idea is no where near what it would take me to return.

I think that the posters are missing one important point. From what I remember in WOW your armor deteriorates when you fight and/or get killed. You will be paying a boatload of gold if you wipe 10 times.

  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

2/09/13 8:17:21 AM#49
Originally posted by Zorgo

The new philosophy seems to be, "You know you won't fail, so challenge yourself to go faster".

But why would we want "fast"? It's just taking the heroic gogogogogo and pushing it up a level. :shake head:

Strikes me that "get the damn raid over and get my ass out of this chair after six hours" is enough motivation for that.

 

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  Foncl

Novice Member

Joined: 11/14/11
Posts: 186

2/09/13 8:20:33 AM#50

Heroic 5-man dungeons at the start of Cataclysm used to be challenging and fun for me. Then casuals started whining because it wasn't enough that normal mode was easy, heroic mode needed to be easy aswell. So Blizzard crumbled under the pressure of the casuals and challenging 5-man dungeons were nowhere to be seen.

 

The challenge mode 5-mans in Pandaland without rewards, where the challenge lies in doing things fast and using an invisibility pot at the right time are a poor replacement for the once challenging heroic 5-mans in TBC and start of Cata.

 
 
  Bladestrom

Elite Member

Joined: 4/04/11
Posts: 3508

2/09/13 8:24:57 AM#51
Thats pretty screwed up, I could pick up a game for my 6 year old daughter and 'go fast' in it while my daughter goes at her pace, or I could but a game for her and a game for adults. Sounds like blizzard designers have lost the plot.

rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW (1000 hrs on main mage)> oblivion > LOTR (480 Hunter) > Rift (230 hours mage) > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(900 elementalist), Wildstar

Now playing GW2, AOW 3

  Novusod

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/30/09
Posts: 872

2/09/13 8:29:55 AM#52
Originally posted by SBFord
If a tank needs to face away from the party so the party doesn’t get destroyed by acid spit, have a spirit healer remind the tank of his explicit duty to stay away from everyone else before resurrection. If the DPS and healers have to mind not to step in the deadly life-stealing gunk, or to cast interrupts, or throw more DOTS at the whelps, give the reminder in a manner that fits a player’s particular role.

This made me laugh. Reminds me of the old Dives scream fest meme on wiping to Onyxia "minus 50DKP." The average WoW raid goes something like this:

Tank and healers run at the boss and pull it into the corner. Melee go left, mages go right, dps it slowly then fast, and when the dragon turns red everyone run to the blue circle and kill welps or some equally stupid gimic.

 

Maybe they should remove the retarded jump through hoops raiding and make something fun. Vindictus does raiding the right way. Oh snap a dragon is running right at us so maybe we better move out of the way.

 

Never going back to WoW style raiding no matter what kind of buffs they throw at the players.

  Aulliwyn

Novice Member

Joined: 6/23/04
Posts: 912

It is pronounced "All-ee-Win!"

2/09/13 9:33:17 AM#53
If and when people drop out of a RF is because a boss was downed and the one piece of loot they were after did not drop. Easy fix: randomize the bosses individual loot tables (which is very different from just random loot). I have rarely seen wipes in RF, more rarely do I see people leaving from wipes. Why is Blizzard "fixing" a barely existent problem?


  Po_gg

Elite Member

Joined: 5/12/10
Posts: 2077

2/09/13 9:35:53 AM#54
Originally posted by Foncl

What I don't understand is how people can level up a character to max level and do the normal dungeons without learning the basics of how to play their class.

...


When will the casuals be satisfied? When the whole game is lowered to their level and hardcore players have nothing left to do?

+1, I don't get it either. I've been on the 'casual' side since years now (in the sense that I rarely do instas and raids, and do it only to see the content in it, never for the endgame treadmill), but I never had any problems with 'basic' mode. I do think it's a wrong answer to even more dumbing down something that only needs a bit of attention and/or a bit of community. In fact, those few instas / raids I play often so I'm familiar with the ropes I also tend to teach these things to newcomers, just like I was teached at the first runs, and it's a much more useful help than give them boosts... (lol, 'often' in my terms, meaning I never skip them when I level a new alt :) for example GA and Hele in LotRO, or Karutonia and Vistrix in AoC are awesome)

The funny thing is, big part of the playerbase doesn't ditch raiding because it's hard, they're doing it because it's a boring waste of time. When I started to leave at level cap and go to an another game or a new alt, my buddies mocked me with all the usual stuff (n00b, dunno how to play, not a real mmo player, etc.). Now, all of them playing the same way :) They realized during the years as well that grinding the same stuff for months isn't a game, just a chore.

So dumbing down that chore is a stupid answer for making it more popular... except if they're aiming the other part of the playerbase, who wants everything simplified and easy. But aiming them will ruin any game in the long run, imo.

 

When will they satisfied? Dunno, but the direction is sad... offline levels and progression, dumbed down mechanics, rent-a-lackey, bots and macros... There's a mocking little flash title called Anti idle game, where the game plays itself, you leave it in the background and it kills/ loots/ leveling up by itself :) I really hope mmo's won't sink that low in the near future.

  Tithenon

Novice Member

Joined: 1/31/11
Posts: 106

2/09/13 9:48:10 AM#55

First off, Blizzard has not one thing to say about failure, when EVERY one of their dungeons is packed wall-to-wall with bad guys, where one misstep will pull another entire group of enemies, when you're simply attempting to maneuver for a better position.  Blizzard has developed all of their dungeons for max fail, and you don't even HAVE to get to a boss.  If you are not spec'd such-and-so for the group you're in, if you don't have the specific correct down-to-the-letter gear for your class, and if you don't make exactly the right moves and use exactly the right skills at exactly the right times, it has the distinct possibility of a party wipe involved.

 

That being said, failure in the game should NOT be rewarded, but rather something like an additional task added to help perform research, or other tasks to find weaknesses for the bosses in a particular dungeon, perhaps being able to find and read the history of the group, perhaps a specific piece of gear or the particular use of a skill, practiced prior to attempting the dungeon again.  WoW is, after all, supposed to be a Massively Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Game, and not just a combat monster.  As all MMOs stand, at this point, they have nothing to do with Role-Playing, except for a bit of speech from characters in the game.

 

If you want to allow players to build their confidence, give them the ability to do research, to plan, to understand what and where they're going into, whom they will be facing, and give them appropriate bonuses for doing so.  Ever-increasing bonuses for stacking failures and/or big failures at the beginning, or at any particular point of the game, are both wrong ways to go.  We live in a society that now impresses on us that EVERYONE is a winner, which is absolute poppycock, and our games only reinforce this misunderstanding of what life is about.  If you want to use our games to help teach life skills, I think that's great, but let's get a real clue about how to do it, first, please?

  koboldfodder

Novice Member

Joined: 9/18/04
Posts: 367

2/09/13 10:35:53 AM#56

It's a good system.  Hello Kitty Online has something similar.  Like in one raid where you have to enter someone's house and steal an old lady's pie on the counter.  She comes at you hard with a rolling pin and it's pretty hard if you are a newbie.  So if you die you get a biscuit in your inventory and when you eat it you get raid buffed.

 

Normally, the old lady goes down within two, maybe three biscuits.  Some pretty decent loot too.  I think I got an Apron of Understand +2 which is decent for a low level chef.

  Purutzil

Elite Member

Joined: 10/02/11
Posts: 2885

The Critical Hit Pretzel!

2/09/13 10:38:17 AM#57

Haha, people accept failure today... please, they expect to be given an easy win/gear and be on their way. They won't bother to improve at all sadly which has been driving the skill of the player base down into the ground. Its not like its a small gap either, bluntly it feels like people have just given up trying in games at all. Theres a problem for example in game when I'll have less gear in an MMO then someone else and yet I provide over double the damage output.

No, its not me being hardcore, hardcore would be me expecting people to be performing top notch all the time, people are just blatently not seeming to try anymore and just expect to be carried around rather then to attempt to ever improve.

  Methios

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/11/11
Posts: 156

2/09/13 11:52:21 AM#58
As much as I loved WoW vanilla and bc I am starting to think they are hurting the MMO genre more then helping it. Blizz is killing what people love about what makes a MMO imo and it's sad companies follow in WoWs path and makes the same game with a different skin and it turns out the game lacks in even covering that bases.
  chaintm

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/02/04
Posts: 979

"Shutting down threads sense 2004"

2/09/13 12:28:41 PM#59

MMO's.

Dying Genre.

This Column Proof.

-------------

The hand holding the US Citizen's and it's government has started will be the downfall if it's self. Blind to the real world around them with all this protective, non-comedic rhetoric. You just need to try even if you don't do well you did great!

Tell that to the next heart surgeon.

"The monster created isn't by the company that makes the game, it's by the fans that make it something it never was"

  Ryowulf

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/28/05
Posts: 671

2/09/13 12:40:21 PM#60

Isn't this just lazyness on WoW's part?  If you balance an encounter properly, then is this buff needed?

On this other hand, if a random made group has a reason to stay together and continue to try isn't that better than people dropping each time things don't work out?

GW1 had a debuff for failure.  You got worst each time you wiped. I can't say I loved that feature, but it did force me to get better. 

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