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  User Deleted
2/08/13 5:12:02 AM#101
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
Originally posted by Zorgo
Originally posted by eyelolled
Originally posted by Rider071

 

I say this because, if you chat in GW2, you die. The game does not make it easy nor possible to chat and play.

 

Ahh, so you prefer a game that is so slow paced you have time to type out a long winded speech during play.  Do they make turn based mmorpgs for people such as yourself? 

I remember the people I played with from EQ as friends, who I got to know, specifically because of downtime chat.

I remember no one from subsequent games with faster paced combat.

Take from that what you will.

I remember no one from my EQ days. All my friends, which include people I only know online but also real life friends, come from UO, AC1, WoW, LOTRO, SW:TOR and now GW2. AC1, from which I have real life friends I know for 10+ years, was just as fast paced as GW2, if not even more.

Mileage always varies depending on the person, some people manage to socialize without being forced to by more or less boring game mechanics. Thing is, people always blame the game without wondering if the problem doesn't actually come from themself... and if one can only socialize when forced to, in my opinion, there is a problem.

No one was forced to socialize, the games you have mentioned, and EQ had the tools to do so. It was part of the game. Part of the game that defined Massive Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game.

In GW2, it actually is a hindrance to do so. You can do better ignoring chat completely, and just do your own thing. Taking your own analogy, you do not see a problem when one is forced to not socialize in an MMORPG? Do you not think that would form some anti-social behavior in players?

A simple solution would be an in-game voice chat and an lfg system, but since they don't exist in-game, the game lacks a basic form of community shown to exist in all the other games you mentioned above, and EQ.

Also a game you didn't list, but should be very apparant that you should, a game with a huge focus on community and chat...GW1.

  Gaia_Hunter

Elite Member

Joined: 5/04/12
Posts: 2446

2/08/13 5:25:58 AM#102
Originally posted by Rider071
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
Originally posted by Zorgo
Originally posted by eyelolled
Originally posted by Rider071

 

I say this because, if you chat in GW2, you die. The game does not make it easy nor possible to chat and play.

 

Ahh, so you prefer a game that is so slow paced you have time to type out a long winded speech during play.  Do they make turn based mmorpgs for people such as yourself? 

I remember the people I played with from EQ as friends, who I got to know, specifically because of downtime chat.

I remember no one from subsequent games with faster paced combat.

Take from that what you will.

I remember no one from my EQ days. All my friends, which include people I only know online but also real life friends, come from UO, AC1, WoW, LOTRO, SW:TOR and now GW2. AC1, from which I have real life friends I know for 10+ years, was just as fast paced as GW2, if not even more.

Mileage always varies depending on the person, some people manage to socialize without being forced to by more or less boring game mechanics. Thing is, people always blame the game without wondering if the problem doesn't actually come from themself... and if one can only socialize when forced to, in my opinion, there is a problem.

No one was forced to socialize, the games you have mentioned, and EQ had the tools to do so. It was part of the game. Part of the game that defined Massive Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game.

In GW2, it actually is a hindrance to do so. You can do better ignoring chat completely, and just do your own thing. Taking your own analogy, you do not see a problem when one is forced to not socialize in an MMORPG? Do you not think that would form some anti-social behavior in players?

A simple solution would be an in-game voice chat and an lfg system, but since they don't exist in-game, the game lacks a basic form of community shown to exist in all the other games you mentioned above, and EQ.

Also a game you didn't list, but should be very apparant that you should, a game with a huge focus on community and chat...GW1.

Clearly typing isn't optimal while playing in GW2.

On the other hand one can say that pat of Massive Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game is to to play with mass amounts of people.

In GW2 that happens without forced communication. In other games, to reach those massive numbers you would have to raid and to do that you will mostly have forced communication.

It is just different types of socialization - GW2 caters to the short, casual encounters (yesterday while playing in cursed shores, my friend and I saw a fallen player by the SP in the labyrinth - we fought to reach him, one of us rezzed him while the other distracted the mobs, we killed the mobs got the SP, and we fought our way out of it,  only a few words exchanged, but we shared a moment together) and if players want to go further they''ll have to go on voice.

A positive side effect of you actually having to have both hands occupied is that the amount of BS one sees in chat is alsmost non existant.

Currently playing: GW2
Cooperative (semi cooperative)board games you should check: Pandemic, Sentinels of the Multiverse, Eldritch Horror, Descent 2.0,Level 7 Omega Protocol, Last Night on Earth

  User Deleted
2/08/13 6:33:08 AM#103
Originally posted by Rider071

1. The zerg was elsewhere doing it's own thing, I was taking back a heated control point needed for resources for the purpose of testing.  My purpose was to find the effect of culling and if it was fixed, being amongst a zerg would not have helped that test. So take your stereotypical zerg-fest projection and place it onto yourself where it belongs.

2. Again, real pvp players will not waste their time playing a bugged pvp game, much less brag about using that bug as a tool to win.

1. If you were alone then you wouldnt experience culling, you STILL havent figured out what culling is and how it works even if it was explained to you, like, million times

2. Real PvPers are smart people that adapt to situation and figure out how to deal with it, bad PvPers start breaking tables because of things they dont understand, and blame everything and everyone but themselves for their failures

Originally posted by Rider071

No one was forced to socialize, the games you have mentioned, and EQ had the tools to do so. It was part of the game. Part of the game that defined Massive Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game.

In GW2, it actually is a hindrance to do so. You can do better ignoring chat completely, and just do your own thing. Taking your own analogy, you do not see a problem when one is forced to not socialize in an MMORPG? Do you not think that would form some anti-social behavior in players?

A simple solution would be an in-game voice chat and an lfg system, but since they don't exist in-game, the game lacks a basic form of community shown to exist in all the other games you mentioned above, and EQ.

Also a game you didn't list, but should be very apparant that you should, a game with a huge focus on community and chat...GW1.

1. The only thing thats required for socialization are 2 people and means to communicate. Theres no such thing as "tool for socialization"

2. You dont know what anti-social means, and "forced socialization" is pretty much definition of anti-social

3. those would be nice, but definately not necessary, especially "LFG tool" like WoWs, thats certain way to anti-social behaviour and no community whatsoever

4. Communty is great on my server, YMMV depending on the server, but theres no guarantee every server will develop same/good community whatever you do.

  Jean-Luc_Picard

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/10/13
Posts: 2393

There... are... four... lights!

2/08/13 7:49:21 AM#104
Originally posted by Rider071

1) No one was forced to socialize, the games you have mentioned, and EQ had the tools to do so. It was part of the game. Part of the game that defined Massive Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game.

2) In GW2, it actually is a hindrance to do so. You can do better ignoring chat completely, and just do your own thing. Taking your own analogy, you do not see a problem when one is forced to not socialize in an MMORPG? Do you not think that would form some anti-social behavior in players?

3) A simple solution would be an in-game voice chat and an lfg system, but since they don't exist in-game, the game lacks a basic form of community shown to exist in all the other games you mentioned above, and EQ.

4) Also a game you didn't list, but should be very apparant that you should, a game with a huge focus on community and chat...GW1.

1) GW2 has just as many tools to socialize as EQ. The only difference is that EQ forces you to group to bash mobs, which isn't a form of socialization per se.

2) There's absolutely no hindrance to socialize in GW2. The problem is not in the game, it's YOU. You seem to be unable to do stuff with other players if the game doesn't force you to... the problem is on your side, not on the game's side. I'm not going to say you're generally anti-social, since I don't know you and how people behave in real life is often different from how they behave in games (Internet anonymity helping a lot there...), but if you can't make acquaintances without forced grouping mechanisms, you may want to question your own social abilities, at least in virtual communities.

Between the person managing to make friends even without being forced to, and the person requiring game mechanics to force him into groups where he may make friends, the most anti-social behavior is pretty obvious.

3) You don't need voice chat to socialize, please, don't serve us that kind of nonsense. When are the times on uses voice chat in EQ, WoW, or other games? During raids or scheduled guild events. Voice chat has never been a tool to meet random people all over the game world, in no game. Dismissed.

And a LFG system? Once again, you are confusing "socializing" with "bashing monsters with other people". This is not socialization, or it's really the lowest form of it. Socialization is when you talk to other players outside of the imposed game mechanics. Otherwise, you don't socialize, you just use others as tools to achieve your own goals, and that's what happens in most of not all games with a "LFG" tool...

4) I don't remember anyone from my time in GW1, that's why the game isn't in my "list". My list is the games in which I met people I'm still playing with today, or who even became "real life" friends. It's not the list of all MMORPGs I've played these last 20 years, it would be uninteresting and huge. Not to mention the community in GW1 was pretty awful, so immature it made WoW's worse zone chat look better. I explicitely said what the list was in my previous post by the way, so either you have reading comprehension problems, or you conveniently ignore parts of what other write just to be able to keep on arguing for the sake of arguing... which is what I suspect you are doing.

 

You sound like the typical player who thinks there's no viable MMORPG model beside the EQ/WoW clone one. Well, good news for you, there's a ton of those games on the market right now, your choice is huge. For the people like me, who know more than just that model, and who enjoy(ed) games like Ultima Online and Asheron's Call, the choice is very limited. The question is, what the hell are you doing here looking for another EQ/WoW clone in a game that would be more like an Asheron's Call clone? It's liking buying carrots and trying to turn them into potatoes just because the two are vegetables... it doesn't make sense.

Playing now: WoW, Landmark, GW2

Top 3 MMORPGs played: UO, AC1 and WoW

Honorable mentions: AO, LotRO and GW2.

"The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn. After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that neither does the ability to write.

  grimal

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 9/11/05
Posts: 1833

2/08/13 8:42:29 AM#105
Originally posted by Bladestrom
If you don't like the dungeons don't do em, you certainly don't need to do them. your contradicting yourself, you either hate dungeons or you want to do them. Sometimes I fancy pvp in gw2 sometimes I fancy wvw sometimes I explore for puzzles, sometimes I do the daily, sometimes I do dungeons - none of em depend on each other.

Reread what was being said.  Someone claimed to experience everything in other MMOs, you need to grind.  (I'm paraphrasing here).  So I said if you want to experience that same everything in GW2 you need to do dungeons.

 

Release a game with a very large established fanbase from 10+ years of bnet history when the market was still emerging and the casual base had not yet been established, thus ripe for harvesting a momentious self perpetuating playerbase people never leave because they have X hours invested in their characters, and their friends and everyone else plays anyway. Not discounting Blizzard quality... but WoW's success is as much about perfect timing as it is quality, if not more so. - Derros

  grimal

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 9/11/05
Posts: 1833

2/08/13 8:52:48 AM#106
Originally posted by aesperus
Originally posted by grimal

What about the dungeons?  If I want to experience all that is GW2 I need to do the dungeons.  I hated the dungeon experience.  So call it "grind", call it "dungeons"...if you want to experience the entirety of a game, chances are you are going to experience something you dont enjoy.

Sorry to jump in, but your argument is fairly flawed.

You're saying that because you 'want' to do all aspects of the game (GW2), you are therefor forced to do all aspects of GW2. That's fairly contradictory, don't you think? Furthermore, that is NOT what a grind is. A grind is a form of gated content in which you are literally forced to repeat content over and over in order to advance within a game. If you've ever played games like EQ / EQ2, Lineage 1 or 2, FFXI, etc. you probably know what i'm talking about. The first, and most obvious form of a 'grind' is camping an area and killing the same mobs over and over again (for exp, loot, w/e). While you 'can' do this in GW2, it's entirely optional.

Reread the posts.  Someone mentioned (I think it was Elir) that the poster above me implied that to experience all there is in GW2, you are not limited in any way (paraphrase).  I countered with well, if I want to experience ALL of it, I need to expeirence dungeons but I don't like them....so how is that really different?  To play the WHOLE game I, of course, am going to be forced to endure parts I most likely will not like.  On the opposite side, you don't like "grind", so to experience the whole game of SWTOR, there is a grind.  Basically, I am saying in both games to experience the WHOLE, you will need to do all aspects of the game (parts which you might not like).  GW2 is not excluded from this.

As for dungeons, you are not forced to do dungeons, at all. You can lvl to 80 without doing dungeons. You can get competitive max stat gear (with the slight exception being ascended items atm) without doing a single dungeon. In fact there is only 1 thing (stat wise) that are limited to dungeons. The specific rune you get from each dungeon. Everything else is purely cosmetic / convenience.

 

- In contrast, if you look at SWTOR, if you want to do dungeons, you NEED to have a certain lvl of gear or else it becomes impossible to complete the dungeon. This is especially true once you get into nightmare modes. With GW2, it's mostly skill based. There's people that have soloed many of the dungeons already. Just for fun, I've ran a few of the dungeons naked with friends (still using weapons of course) and managed to complete them. I can't do that in SWTOR.

 

In PvP, you are literally screwed in SWTOR until you get your PvP gear. Players that have already grinded out their PvP items will dominate you, until you get enough marks to start getting your own. This isn't true for GW2 either.

Not true.  You can PVP quite well and a hell of a lot from 1-49 without any PVP gear.

In summary: What GW2 does is offer you pleanty of options to play the game how you want. Many people mistake this philosophy with 'now i have to do all these things i don't want'. No one is forcing you to do something you don't want to. They are purely optional, and are there because different people like doing different things. No game can 100% cater to everyone, and GW2 is a game that is well aware of that fact.

The same can be said about SWTOR.  I am not forced to play any of the parts I don't want to.

 

Release a game with a very large established fanbase from 10+ years of bnet history when the market was still emerging and the casual base had not yet been established, thus ripe for harvesting a momentious self perpetuating playerbase people never leave because they have X hours invested in their characters, and their friends and everyone else plays anyway. Not discounting Blizzard quality... but WoW's success is as much about perfect timing as it is quality, if not more so. - Derros

  Gaia_Hunter

Elite Member

Joined: 5/04/12
Posts: 2446

2/08/13 8:54:10 AM#107
Originally posted by grimal
Originally posted by Bladestrom
If you don't like the dungeons don't do em, you certainly don't need to do them. your contradicting yourself, you either hate dungeons or you want to do them. Sometimes I fancy pvp in gw2 sometimes I fancy wvw sometimes I explore for puzzles, sometimes I do the daily, sometimes I do dungeons - none of em depend on each other.

Reread what was being said.  Someone claimed to experience everything in other MMOs, you need to grind.  (I'm paraphrasing here).  So I said if you want to experience that same everything in GW2 you need to do dungeons.

 

Doing a dungeon is different from grinding a dungeon.

The difference is in some games you need to grind to do the content. In GW2 you do the content and then grind if you want.

The only argument you would have is that to do the story you need to play open world pve and to do dungeons you need to reach level 30.

Currently playing: GW2
Cooperative (semi cooperative)board games you should check: Pandemic, Sentinels of the Multiverse, Eldritch Horror, Descent 2.0,Level 7 Omega Protocol, Last Night on Earth

  grimal

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 9/11/05
Posts: 1833

2/08/13 8:56:49 AM#108
Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter
Originally posted by grimal
Originally posted by Bladestrom
If you don't like the dungeons don't do em, you certainly don't need to do them. your contradicting yourself, you either hate dungeons or you want to do them. Sometimes I fancy pvp in gw2 sometimes I fancy wvw sometimes I explore for puzzles, sometimes I do the daily, sometimes I do dungeons - none of em depend on each other.

Reread what was being said.  Someone claimed to experience everything in other MMOs, you need to grind.  (I'm paraphrasing here).  So I said if you want to experience that same everything in GW2 you need to do dungeons.

 

Doing a dungeon is different from grinding a dungeon.

The difference is in some games you need to grind to do the content. In GW2 you do the content and then grind if you want.

Don't you need to grind the dungeons in GW2 to learn how to run through it? A lot of people complained at how difficult they were until learning how to play one through repeated attempts.

Anyways, what I am forbidden from doing in a game like SWTOR without grinding a dungeon?

Release a game with a very large established fanbase from 10+ years of bnet history when the market was still emerging and the casual base had not yet been established, thus ripe for harvesting a momentious self perpetuating playerbase people never leave because they have X hours invested in their characters, and their friends and everyone else plays anyway. Not discounting Blizzard quality... but WoW's success is as much about perfect timing as it is quality, if not more so. - Derros

  Gaia_Hunter

Elite Member

Joined: 5/04/12
Posts: 2446

2/08/13 9:03:20 AM#109
Originally posted by grimal
Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter
Originally posted by grimal
Originally posted by Bladestrom
If you don't like the dungeons don't do em, you certainly don't need to do them. your contradicting yourself, you either hate dungeons or you want to do them. Sometimes I fancy pvp in gw2 sometimes I fancy wvw sometimes I explore for puzzles, sometimes I do the daily, sometimes I do dungeons - none of em depend on each other.

Reread what was being said.  Someone claimed to experience everything in other MMOs, you need to grind.  (I'm paraphrasing here).  So I said if you want to experience that same everything in GW2 you need to do dungeons.

 

Doing a dungeon is different from grinding a dungeon.

The difference is in some games you need to grind to do the content. In GW2 you do the content and then grind if you want.

Don't you need to grind the dungeons in GW2 to learn how to run through it? A lot of people complained at how difficult they were until learning how to play one through repeated attempts.

Anyways, what I am forbidden from doing in a game like SWTOR without grinding a dungeon?

Why SWTOR  and dungeons in particular?

And why would I need to run a dungeon multiple times to learn how to do it? Didn't I already finished the dungeon? And if I do a dungeon multiple times to learn how to play it, is that grind or is that gameplay?

Currently playing: GW2
Cooperative (semi cooperative)board games you should check: Pandemic, Sentinels of the Multiverse, Eldritch Horror, Descent 2.0,Level 7 Omega Protocol, Last Night on Earth

  Jean-Luc_Picard

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/10/13
Posts: 2393

There... are... four... lights!

2/08/13 9:07:33 AM#110
Originally posted by grimal
Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter
Originally posted by grimal
Originally posted by Bladestrom
If you don't like the dungeons don't do em, you certainly don't need to do them. your contradicting yourself, you either hate dungeons or you want to do them. Sometimes I fancy pvp in gw2 sometimes I fancy wvw sometimes I explore for puzzles, sometimes I do the daily, sometimes I do dungeons - none of em depend on each other.

Reread what was being said.  Someone claimed to experience everything in other MMOs, you need to grind.  (I'm paraphrasing here).  So I said if you want to experience that same everything in GW2 you need to do dungeons.

 

Doing a dungeon is different from grinding a dungeon.

The difference is in some games you need to grind to do the content. In GW2 you do the content and then grind if you want.

Don't you need to grind the dungeons in GW2 to learn how to run through it? A lot of people complained at how difficult they were until learning how to play one through repeated attempts.

Anyways, what I am forbidden from doing in a game like SWTOR without grinding a dungeon?

Clutching at straws or just trolling now?

Do you even read what Gaia writes? Your answers have nothing to do with what he says.

Playing now: WoW, Landmark, GW2

Top 3 MMORPGs played: UO, AC1 and WoW

Honorable mentions: AO, LotRO and GW2.

"The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn. After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that neither does the ability to write.

  Eir_S

Elite Member

Joined: 8/07/11
Posts: 4527

GW2 socialist.

2/08/13 9:08:05 AM#111
Originally posted by Rider071

Also a game you didn't list, but should be very apparant that you should, a game with a huge focus on community and chat...GW1.

Ah yes, "community".  Like Shing Jea district 1.. a place that made the Barrens look good.

  User Deleted
2/08/13 9:08:21 AM#112
Originally posted by grimal

Don't you need to grind the dungeons in GW2 to learn how to run through it? A lot of people complained at how difficult they were until learning how to play one through repeated attempts.

Anyways, what I am forbidden from doing in a game like SWTOR without grinding a dungeon?

new raids/flashpoints. You are aware of gear check? It seems SWTOR was your very first MMO and you didnt get very far either.

Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

Clutching at straws or just trolling now?

Do you even read what Gaia writes? Your answers have nothing to do with what he says.


Yah, his answres dont make any sense at all.

And he likes selective reading and selective answers, that adds to the above.

  Eir_S

Elite Member

Joined: 8/07/11
Posts: 4527

GW2 socialist.

2/08/13 9:10:37 AM#113
Originally posted by grimal

Don't you need to grind the dungeons in GW2 to learn how to run through it? A lot of people complained at how difficult they were until learning how to play one through repeated attempts.

There's a new meaning of the word grinding every day at MMORPG.com! lol

  grimal

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 9/11/05
Posts: 1833

2/08/13 9:12:16 AM#114
Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter
Originally posted by grimal
Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter
Originally posted by grimal
Originally posted by Bladestrom
If you don't like the dungeons don't do em, you certainly don't need to do them. your contradicting yourself, you either hate dungeons or you want to do them. Sometimes I fancy pvp in gw2 sometimes I fancy wvw sometimes I explore for puzzles, sometimes I do the daily, sometimes I do dungeons - none of em depend on each other.

Reread what was being said.  Someone claimed to experience everything in other MMOs, you need to grind.  (I'm paraphrasing here).  So I said if you want to experience that same everything in GW2 you need to do dungeons.

 

Doing a dungeon is different from grinding a dungeon.

The difference is in some games you need to grind to do the content. In GW2 you do the content and then grind if you want.

Don't you need to grind the dungeons in GW2 to learn how to run through it? A lot of people complained at how difficult they were until learning how to play one through repeated attempts.

Anyways, what I am forbidden from doing in a game like SWTOR without grinding a dungeon?

Why SWTOR  and dungeons in particular?

And why would I need to run a dungeon multiple times to learn how to do it? Didn't I already finished the dungeon? And if I do a dungeon multiple times to learn how to play it, is that grind or is that gameplay?

This all stems from the original claim that GW2 is unique in that you are not forced to do anything you don't want.

I am saying this isn't true; many MMORPGs are like this.

Release a game with a very large established fanbase from 10+ years of bnet history when the market was still emerging and the casual base had not yet been established, thus ripe for harvesting a momentious self perpetuating playerbase people never leave because they have X hours invested in their characters, and their friends and everyone else plays anyway. Not discounting Blizzard quality... but WoW's success is as much about perfect timing as it is quality, if not more so. - Derros

  grimal

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 9/11/05
Posts: 1833

2/08/13 9:13:07 AM#115
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
Originally posted by grimal
Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter
Originally posted by grimal
Originally posted by Bladestrom
If you don't like the dungeons don't do em, you certainly don't need to do them. your contradicting yourself, you either hate dungeons or you want to do them. Sometimes I fancy pvp in gw2 sometimes I fancy wvw sometimes I explore for puzzles, sometimes I do the daily, sometimes I do dungeons - none of em depend on each other.

Reread what was being said.  Someone claimed to experience everything in other MMOs, you need to grind.  (I'm paraphrasing here).  So I said if you want to experience that same everything in GW2 you need to do dungeons.

 

Doing a dungeon is different from grinding a dungeon.

The difference is in some games you need to grind to do the content. In GW2 you do the content and then grind if you want.

Don't you need to grind the dungeons in GW2 to learn how to run through it? A lot of people complained at how difficult they were until learning how to play one through repeated attempts.

Anyways, what I am forbidden from doing in a game like SWTOR without grinding a dungeon?

Clutching at straws or just trolling now?

Do you even read what Gaia writes? Your answers have nothing to do with what he says.

Read my post above. 

Release a game with a very large established fanbase from 10+ years of bnet history when the market was still emerging and the casual base had not yet been established, thus ripe for harvesting a momentious self perpetuating playerbase people never leave because they have X hours invested in their characters, and their friends and everyone else plays anyway. Not discounting Blizzard quality... but WoW's success is as much about perfect timing as it is quality, if not more so. - Derros

  Kyleran

Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 18361

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

2/08/13 9:15:04 AM#116
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
Originally posted by Rider071

 
 

You sound like the typical player who thinks there's no viable MMORPG model beside the EQ/WoW clone one. Well, good news for you, there's a ton of those games on the market right now, your choice is huge. For the people like me, who know more than just that model, and who enjoy(ed) games like Ultima Online and Asheron's Call, the choice is very limited. The question is, what the hell are you doing here looking for another EQ/WoW clone in a game that would be more like an Asheron's Call clone? It's liking buying carrots and trying to turn them into potatoes just because the two are vegetables... it doesn't make sense.

First time I've ever seen anyone compare GW2 to games such as UO and AC1, in fact, I would think most fans of those two titles would eschew the mechanics GW2  brought to the genre.

But you guys have gone way off topic with this discussion about socialization mechanics in modern MMORPG's.  Let's try to redirect back to the OP.

I agree with the premise that GW2's combat design goes a long way towards reducing the hostility of some players against others for not properly filling out their roles.  Mostly because I believe in any situation there is either no one correct action a player should take to ensure success, or perhaps moreso because most people haven't played all classes and don't know what the correct response should have been.

It's pretty easy in a role based game to tell if the healer missed his heal, the tank lost aggro, or the DPS over pulled (esp with DPS meters), but in GW2 I don't think these are all so apparent, so they can't be used to attack others, and as a person whose largely given up dungeon running due to said hostility I can really appreciate this benefit.

On the converse, I also know there's a great deal of satisfaction for developing your skills so that you become a truely proficient healer (never been a tank) and it is gratifying to know you were a key reason why the group was successful.  So this system seems to sort of detract from that in a big way, probably hard to really look towards your individual contribution and say, man, that action I took just saved the whole team.

I guess with all changes, there's are pluses and minuses, and it's really more of a matter of player preference which you favor.  I must say, my interest in GW2 has gone up quite a bit since reading this thread, (haven't played it yet, only observed my son's activities) but I must say, I'm reconsidering my position and might actually give this a go, just to see if dungeon running can become fun again for me.

 

"The discrepancy between what we know is possible and what we currently have to choose from is beyond disappointing" - GeezerGamer
Kyleran - Bitter Vet ™ since 2006
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  Muntz

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/09/09
Posts: 279

2/08/13 9:22:38 AM#117
Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter
Originally posted by grimal
Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter
Originally posted by grimal
Originally posted by Bladestrom
If you don't like the dungeons don't do em, you certainly don't need to do them. your contradicting yourself, you either hate dungeons or you want to do them. Sometimes I fancy pvp in gw2 sometimes I fancy wvw sometimes I explore for puzzles, sometimes I do the daily, sometimes I do dungeons - none of em depend on each other.

Reread what was being said.  Someone claimed to experience everything in other MMOs, you need to grind.  (I'm paraphrasing here).  So I said if you want to experience that same everything in GW2 you need to do dungeons.

 

Doing a dungeon is different from grinding a dungeon.

The difference is in some games you need to grind to do the content. In GW2 you do the content and then grind if you want.

Don't you need to grind the dungeons in GW2 to learn how to run through it? A lot of people complained at how difficult they were until learning how to play one through repeated attempts.

Anyways, what I am forbidden from doing in a game like SWTOR without grinding a dungeon?

Why SWTOR  and dungeons in particular?

And why would I need to run a dungeon multiple times to learn how to do it? Didn't I already finished the dungeon? And if I do a dungeon multiple times to learn how to play it, is that grind or is that gameplay?

Maybe grimal it's the way you play. I have not played SWTOR so I can only give you an example from something I have played thats AoC. Just as your saying you can in AoC level in world content and get to max and you have NO option option of getting the best gear available without raiding. You can say you don't need the best gear in the game but to really experience the game you need to. In order to be competative in PvP ( at least at the time I played) the raid gear was pretty much required. Sure you could PvP without it at a big disadvantage. Further there were raid dungeon tiers so inorder to get from one set of dungeons to the next the previous dungeons gear was required (partial gear was possible). Everything the developers did funnelled you toward the dungeons. New releases, new tiers of dungeons or new content that requires dungeon gear. So in response to these dungeon funnelled games people build systems hence the DKP system where your time invested in your group gains you rewards. 

Guild Wars two avoids this there isn't a DKP system needed. You can simply do world content and have the best armor in the game. Maybe, if I'm reading what you say correctly, because you only do world content in games it doesn't feel any different to you. But for many of us the whole layout of the system is very different. I can be competative in any aspect of the game so I can do any content I want at any time. I don't have to wait for enough DKP points to buy that armor set that will get me into the next teir of dungeon so I can get to the next 3 tiers so that I can PvP without falling over like a paper doll. That is an example of what people are calling forced. Again from how you talk it may not be your experience but many have had it. 

  Eir_S

Elite Member

Joined: 8/07/11
Posts: 4527

GW2 socialist.

2/08/13 9:22:44 AM#118
Originally posted by Kyleran
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
Originally posted by Rider071

 
 

You sound like the typical player who thinks there's no viable MMORPG model beside the EQ/WoW clone one. Well, good news for you, there's a ton of those games on the market right now, your choice is huge. For the people like me, who know more than just that model, and who enjoy(ed) games like Ultima Online and Asheron's Call, the choice is very limited. The question is, what the hell are you doing here looking for another EQ/WoW clone in a game that would be more like an Asheron's Call clone? It's liking buying carrots and trying to turn them into potatoes just because the two are vegetables... it doesn't make sense.

First time I've ever seen anyone compare GW2 to games such as UO and AC1, in fact, I would think most fans of those two titles would eschew the mechanics GW2  brought to the genre.

But you guys have gone way off topic with this discussion about socialization mechanics in modern MMORPG's.  Let's try to redirect back to the OP.

I agree with the premise that GW2's combat design goes a long way towards reducing the hostility of some players against others for not properly filling out their roles.  Mostly because I believe in any situation there is either no one correct action a player should take to ensure success, or perhaps moreso because most people haven't played all classes and don't know what the correct response should have been.

It's pretty easy in a role based game to tell if the healer missed his heal, the tank lost aggro, or the DPS over pulled (esp with DPS meters), but in GW2 I don't think these are all so apparent, so they can't be used to attack others, and as a person whose largely given up dungeon running due to said hostility I can really appreciate this benefit.

On the converse, I also know there's a great deal of satisfaction for developing your skills so that you become a truely proficient healer (never been a tank) and it is gratifying to know you were a key reason why the group was successful.  So this system seems to sort of detract from that in a big way, probably hard to really look towards your individual contribution and say, man, that action I took just saved the whole team.

I guess with all changes, there's are pluses and minuses, and it's really more of a matter of player preference which you favor.  I must say, my interest in GW2 has gone up quite a bit since reading this thread, (haven't played it yet, only observed my son's activities) but I must say, I'm reconsidering my position and might actually give this a go, just to see if dungeon running can become fun again for me.

 

Great post.  To be honest, Caudecas' (sp) Manor is pretty straight forward, and Ascalonian Catacombs is known to be pretty hard for a "first" dungeon, but the Fractals I've played are super fun.  Not once do the people I'm with get mad at each other for failing to fill their role like in WoW where I'd be yelled at at least a few times a day, usually by hunters who blamed me for letting them die (sometimes I did it on purpose because they pulled before I could).  It's a really nice change for me as well.  Hopefully if you decide to give it a shot, you'll enjoy it.  Who knows, but it can't hurt to try.

  Jean-Luc_Picard

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/10/13
Posts: 2393

There... are... four... lights!

2/08/13 9:23:17 AM#119
Originally posted by Kyleran
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
Originally posted by Rider071

 
 

You sound like the typical player who thinks there's no viable MMORPG model beside the EQ/WoW clone one. Well, good news for you, there's a ton of those games on the market right now, your choice is huge. For the people like me, who know more than just that model, and who enjoy(ed) games like Ultima Online and Asheron's Call, the choice is very limited. The question is, what the hell are you doing here looking for another EQ/WoW clone in a game that would be more like an Asheron's Call clone? It's liking buying carrots and trying to turn them into potatoes just because the two are vegetables... it doesn't make sense.

First time I've ever seen anyone compare GW2 to games such as UO and AC1, in fact, I would think most fans of those two titles would eschew the mechanics GW2  brought to the genre.

I NEVER said GW2 was close to UO. If, instead of selectively selecting one sentence and highlighting it, you would use the whole post, you would notice that I said two things here.

1) For those who enjoyed UO and AC1, there's little choice of MMORPG nowadays. Note that I didn't say both games where similar, actually UO and AC1 are very different games.

2) GW2 is "more like an Asheron's Call clone".  And I mean AC1 of course. Actually, GW2 is closer to AC1 than AC2 was. Massive world, exploration encouraged, no forced grouping, no trinity, no need to farm raids to get the best gear, player skill meaning more than levels, action based combat with player dodging, monthly patches, and now ongoing story too. And if you think AC1 fans, which I'm being part of for playing the game for over 5 years, would "eschew" the GW2 mechanics, then I actually wonder if you have played AC1 at all.

I've reread my post twice, my English, for once, was decently good, and what I said is easily understandable. But yeah, selective reading is so much more fun...

Too bad, because the rest of your post is decently interesting and I could mostly agree with it. But sorry, I won't let you make me say things I never said :-)

Playing now: WoW, Landmark, GW2

Top 3 MMORPGs played: UO, AC1 and WoW

Honorable mentions: AO, LotRO and GW2.

"The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn. After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that neither does the ability to write.

  RizelStar

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/12/11
Posts: 2818

We all breathe and we all die.

2/08/13 9:23:24 AM#120
Originally posted by Eir_S
Originally posted by grimal

Don't you need to grind the dungeons in GW2 to learn how to run through it? A lot of people complained at how difficult they were until learning how to play one through repeated attempts.

There's a new meaning of the word grinding every day at MMORPG.com! lol

LMBO!!!

The same happens with the word innovative. Lord have mercy on Developers that try to make an innovative MMORPG these days.

 

On topic: I really don't have any comments, I gotta re read it first, not going to lie I skipped to the end of this thread and hardly read the OP. 

:/

 

Edited: OKay I definately agree with what's being said, now if I'm reading this correctly eye means that you don't have to depend on certain roles and etc to get things done, which is what I like about GW2, also not bein required to group, the type of guy I am in games is how I am in rl, I really talk to anyone, I really don't give a fuck like for when we fought Balzaar or w/e his name was at ORR, he downed like all 20 of us, I'd try to use humor in open chat like "I wish they had this fight on the receipt." Didn't know we would all get our asses whooped, people laughed and talked even more.

It felt good to me because we weren't all grouped, but we socialised and no one was worried about what proffesion and etc, nothing required/forced, no one needed a certain role as well, we just used better tactics when we fought him the second time.

Umm I forgot that one boss fight but it was where the boss would teleport and eventually the group fighting him would have to learn patience because if you kept chasing him he would regenerate after teleportin back to where he was, which made it once again not depending on a role and hell even a zerg this time. It was an Asuran boss btw to unlock a dungeon it was open world.

I might be using poor examples but if I am then eh well I tried ha ha.

I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.

I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.

P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)

Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.

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