Originally posted by Vesavius

Wait... what? I thought the industry told us that the sub model was unprofitable and unsustainable?

 

Yet here we have, from a man very much in the know, saying he can run his game for a niche audience on it... makes you wonder why those other guys say they can't eh? Maybe it is down to making a sustanable profit or just profiteering, as some here have always maintained?

 

I admire a man who puts game design before high marketing numbers and a man who seems to understand how the cash shop model is awful for community building and core game design (I do disagree with him that this isn't important for PvE games as well though, but I feel he is being somewhat diplomatic towards his industry peers in what he says here).

The industry can tell us all it wants.  Trion said Storm Legion sales blew their socks off because they hit 13% sales instead of only 7%.  What they say is meaningless.  What they report is what matters.

So how did the sub-model work for his last rvr game?  Oh yeah, that's right I'm going there.

Let's say he learned his "lessons" from that experience (I doubt it but we'll give him the benefit).  How is he supposed to make and pay for his game with his 60K subscribers?  How much does it take to develop a game?  People want a triple A experience and say they're willing to pay for it, yet only 2 sub-locked games (WoW and EVE) have been more than anemically successful.

Anyway, back to the math.  At the very least it's going to cost $20M unless he goes browser based or uses a cheap crap engine.  Like I said above, at 60K players that will cost each player $333 just to break even.

Please explain how the math is supposed to work for the niche?  Is he going to have to go for the mass cash grab and then settle for niche subs?  That is the only way he could fund it with meager numbers.

The problem here is he is telling people like you everything you want to hear and you're eating up.  Do the math, put him and his idea through the ringer, and if he comes out clean then you'll have a good deal on your hands.  But please don't posture about sub-locked "victory" before your chicken has even laid its eggs.

Originally posted by Ozmodan

I don't know why everyone assumes you have to go f2p to be successful in this market.  As I said earlier, f2p just screams cheap to me.  When you start a game as f2p it just says you cannot compete.  Is that the kind of game you want?

I like what he says so far.  Let's hope he can produce what he is describing.

Funny because P2P just screams empty cash grab to me.  Kickstarter, tiered subs (warning danger will robinson), and niche profits.

What is it you pro sub-locked fans always say?  You get what you pay for.

I like what I am hearing.

Smaller scale scope by only focusing on RvR = Planetside 2

Focus on player owned real-estate and crafting = EvE

Fantasy genre = 90% of MMOs

Cutting out the PVE 1 month and done treadmill where people cry and cry about having no end-game is great. PVE involves massive amounts of time and money to produce content that people play for a month and then never see again. MMO after MMO has countless empty pve zones a few months in.

Combinging Planetside 2 with DAOC and throwing in some parts of EvE to create longevity sounds brilliant to me.

"CU first differentiator is that the entire game revolves around RvR not RvR+PvE or PvE+RvR or anything like that. Also, systems such as crafting and housing are also tied directly into RvR. The economy will be player-owned and crafters will be a very necessary part of the game/Community."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_B3dvFMyDE

Originally posted by Nihilist

I like what I am hearing.

Smaller scale scope by only focusing on RvR = Planetside 2

Focus on player owned real-estate and crafting = EvE

Fantasy genre = 90% of MMOs

 

Cutting out the PVE 1 month and done treadmill where people cry and cry about having no end-game is great. PVE involves massive amounts of time and money to produce content that people play for a month and then never see again. MMO after MMO has countless empty pve zones a few months in.

 

Combinging Planetside 2 with DAOC and throwing in some parts of EvE to create longevity sounds brilliant to me.

Very well put, I wish them all the best and will definitely put my money where my mouth is when kickstarter campaign is up

If the RvR + crafting fitting together comes out to being anything like building your own cities for your own faction and your own guild within that faction out in a HUGE persistant environment full of resources (shadowbane) that would benefit your realm in some way, i would be all over this game.

Mark, can you save the MMO genre? I am putting my hopes and dreams in small indie studios because that is where the real innovation will be coming from in the current market. We have all been burned enough over the last 9 years. Here's hoping.

**and people, please don't forget that small scale niche MMO's have been working and profitable since the late 90's, it isn't some new thing. WoW was an outlier as it is and probably will remain the only MMO to reach subs in the double digit millions. Aiming your product at 50,000 people and having them pay $12-15 a month is perfectly fine for a small studio, you dont need to be raking in $100+ million per month to be considered successful.

Originally posted by Wighty
This guy wins the F2P vs. Sub argument hands down!

This.

A medieval Planetside 2 with tiered sub rates and a developmentally cheap system of PvP to keep the masses (sorry, niche group) enthralled for years on end? With very little PvE (the traditional staple of rpg progress) to boot? Hmm where have I seen this focus on PvP with PvE lite content before?

• Warhammer Online
• Global Agenda
• Darkfall
• Mortal Online

Every mmo to date needs strong PvE elements worth fighting for. The "great" Shadowbane had sense enough to understand this most basic mmorpg concept. Even DAoC had it's fair share of PvE content that was unique to which ever side you chose to support. Dunno, I just think that many here are too quick to write off tradition without giving thought to MJ's most obvious reasons for doing so: PvE content is bad for business.  PvP on the other hand is cheaper to make, last longer and requires less maintenance. I mean this is the same guy that said earlier that you need dragons to appeal to asian mmo players. Yeah real insight there.

Either way it goes, it will be entertaining to see how this pans out. It just seems to me that all the aging developers that started the genre are fast approaching that stage in their careers where they hope to cash in on name recognition alone. Well that and a few buzzwords to mez the masses that stumble and drool with every word they mutter. Dunno. I always played the games that appealed to me because I liked the game itself, not who's name was attached to it. Oh well. Here's hoping that this endeavor turns out to be just what all you RvR guys have been wishing for.

Originally posted by Torvaldr

Originally posted by Ozmodan

I don't know why everyone assumes you have to go f2p to be successful in this market.  As I said earlier, f2p just screams cheap to me.  When you start a game as f2p it just says you cannot compete.  Is that the kind of game you want?

I like what he says so far.  Let's hope he can produce what he is describing.

Funny because P2P just screams empty cash grab to me.  Kickstarter, tiered subs (warning danger will robinson), and niche profits.

What is it you pro sub-locked fans always say?  You get what you pay for.

p2p is a cash grab? Its stated up front, 15/month for 24/7 entertainment and no restrictions for 30 days....... how is that a cash grab? Old games charged 2$/hour now you get the same entertainment for an entire 30 days for 50 cents per day. Find me cheaper entertainment. MMORPG subscription prices are about the only thing in our economy that hasnt risen 300% since a decade ago.

F2P are cheap, their updates are usualy centered around their cash shops to milk more out of you.

Kickstarters so far have been mostly f2p games......... just saying.

You statement is full of holes.

Now look at it from the other point of view. You are a business owner of lets say a all you can eat buffet establishment.

You serve 1000 people per day and charging everyone the same you make killing profits.

Over time you dumb your food down, offer less food, and your food becomes bland and people dont want to pay any longer.

Is that the pay models fault of the owners fault?

So you decide to start letting people eat for free...........

3000 people show up and only 5 per every 100 pay anything towards the food. But you have to pay for more tables, chairs, ishes, and food. Are you honestly thinking that will make you more profit?

So now you have around 150 paying customers out of your 3000, and 150 is greater than your original 1000 customers? All because you tried to cut corners and spend less time making quality food thinking so many will just pay up for half the work done.

Simple fact, the newer game suck, copy wow way too much, offer no long term playability, remove features, force you down a set path, remove your choice and freedom, and people are sick of that. If the game sucks to begin with and no one wants to pay, turning it f2p wont make the game any better.

All these old school MMOs are getting remakes... I'm still waiting for an Ultima Online remake ):

Looks promising, definitely adding it to my watch list, high time the sandbox MMO makes a come back; I'm tired of boring quest based carebear MMOs that have no risk.

Originally posted by Ramonski7

A medieval Planetside 2 with tiered sub rates and a developmentally cheap system of PvP to keep the masses (sorry, niche group) enthralled for years on end? With very little PvE (the traditional staple of rpg progress) to boot? Hmm where have I seen this focus on PvP with PvE lite content before?

• Warhammer Online
• Global Agenda
• Darkfall
• Mortal Online

Every mmo to date needs strong PvE elements worth fighting for. The "great" Shadowbane had sense enough to understand this most basic mmorpg concept. Even DAoC had it's fair share of PvE content that was unique to which ever side you chose to support. Dunno, I just think that many here are too quick to write off tradition without giving thought to MJ's most obvious reasons for doing so: PvE content is bad for business.  PvP on the other hand is cheaper to make, last longer and requires less maintenance. I mean this is the same guy that said earlier that you need dragons to appeal to asian mmo players. Yeah real insight there.

 

Either way it goes, it will be entertaining to see how this pans out. It just seems to me that all the aging developers that started the genre are fast approaching that stage in their careers where they hope to cash in on name recognition alone. Well that and a few buzzwords to mez the masses that stumble and drool with every word they mutter. Dunno. I always played the games that appealed to me because I liked the game itself, not who's name was attached to it. Oh well. Here's hoping that this endeavor turns out to be just what all you RvR guys have been wishing for.

Yes people need to remain skeptical, but the games you pointed out are not direct comparisons. You left out Planetside 2 even though you mentioned it 2 lines up and it is probably the best example of how a non-pve game can do well.

You are also missing the most obvious examples of hugely successful online games that have almost zero content - Leage of Legends, DOTA 2, HoN, Smite, etc..

The point is that the number of people who are willing to play PVE focused games for more than a month is low outside of WoW. SWTOR is the most obvious exaple of hundreds of millions spent on content that didn't have any longevity.

MJ  is being honest about his experiences, and he seems to have learned from past mistakes that were pushed by EA.

This game is happening so those who are skeptical or negative, whats the point? If it's your cup of tea than drink it, other wise move on to what floats your personal boat...

Myself, I am very curious for a "RVR only" version of DAOC. It could work, it may work so well that it's niche target is missed and it becomes main stream. who knows.

If they truly learn from past mistakes, don't fix what wasn't broken and add new elements that fit, it could be a masterpiece. I'm also a glass half full sort of person, life is more pleasant that way.

I wonder how they will work progression into CU without PVE though. Sure you can gain levels and realm abilities via RVR, like in DAOC but what about equiping yourself to stand a chance? People need a carrot to chase, to earn. Something not easily attainable.

That area must be where he said "Crafting" will be very important. The more one thinks about CU the more interesting it becomes.