Originally posted by MyBoot
God this poor horse is still getting flogged ?

 It's just a puddle of liquified sticky goo at this point.  But I get the feeling many people like getting covered in sticky goo *whistles innocently and walks away*

Originally posted by jtcgs

WoW this, WoW that...

Any company basing its game design on WoWs success deserves its quick trip to F2P. No company has EVER come close to WoW and thus thinking about WoW for your design is ignoring the fact that everyone else FAILED. This alone would push someone that has HALF a brain to think, maybe we need to do something else to have a better chance at success....because if you go up against the best half-assed, you will lose...and the industry has proved that every single time. So, dont even target the WoW crowd....target those that DONT play it or have stopped. THAT should be the target, and there are millions of them. More MMO players DONT play WoW that do play it.

No disagreement.  Nobody has ever topped WoW at a WoW-like design.  Many have proven that it's foolish to try.

However, I believe it realistic to say that NOT copying WoW is a double edged sword.  It might please those who don't want WoW.  But the WoW fans who do stumble in based on marketing hype or curiousity, the first thing out of their mouths... "But it's nothing like WoW, it's not as good as WoW", and so on.  By my estimation, around 4 million people started MMORPGs with WoW.  Those people define MMORPG by WoW itself.  They expect all MMORPGs to be just like WoW.  When one is not, they don't understand why.

We all agree that at the turn of the genre WoW stood up and said...  " I  am ruler, come play me", and we did, and still do. WoW took some things that we all liked, made it HUGE in epic scale, and the graphics were good. We can all agree it did what no other MMO has done to date. There in itself lies our problem. Game companies need to realise that coping the original will fail beyond comparison and bring them swiftly to the f2p concept. 

A game company that has a "NEW" idea about the genre, not a copy, not a remake, not some same old game with updated graphics and still the same crappy design. We need a new game with new ideas, new concepts, new way of playing if it wants to do what WoW and lure the masses of masses away from all the others.

The companies need to stop thinking inside the WoW money bag, wanna be rich off someone elses ideas and come up with a new one. There are a few out there... let's see how they fair. Much like the others have pointed out... this is going to be a while before we see anything "NEW" in the way of an MMO or even longer till a life changing, end all WoWers sandbox.

Till  then, keep your fingers crossed.

ya but all of you guys acting like those wow clones are a big failure.  When in fact most of them are making money.

Just because a game cut staff, turn it into f2p, loss most of its sub dont' mean it is not making money.  Many of them recover thier cost and is actually making small profit.

Originally posted by laokoko

ya but all of you guys acting like those wow clones are a big failure.  When in fact most of them are making money.

Just because a game cut staff, turn it into f2p, loss most of its sub dont' mean it is not making money.  Many of them recover thier cost and is actually making small profit.

Plenty of restaurants serve crappy food but they have a bar to serve the regular winos, so does that restaurant qualify as a successful restaurant?

Originally posted by Torgrim

Originally posted by laokoko

ya but all of you guys acting like those wow clones are a big failure.  When in fact most of them are making money.

Just because a game cut staff, turn it into f2p, loss most of its sub dont' mean it is not making money.  Many of them recover thier cost and is actually making small profit.

 

Plenty of restaurants serve crappy food but they have a bar to serve the regular winos, so is that restaurant a succesful in serving food?

They make money.  That is all it matters to them.

We have so many "crappy(not in insulting way)" wow clone, because they actually make money.  Probably not alot of money, but money is money.

Not only that, the major problem I believe is those developer and game studio arn't even gambling their "own" money.  Which to me is what's wrong with the American economy today.  Those people in power, take too much gamble because they are not risking their own money.

Originally posted by Torgrim

Originally posted by laokoko

ya but all of you guys acting like those wow clones are a big failure.  When in fact most of them are making money.

Just because a game cut staff, turn it into f2p, loss most of its sub dont' mean it is not making money.  Many of them recover thier cost and is actually making small profit.

 

Plenty of restaurants serve crappy food but they have a bar to serve the regular winos, so does that restaurant qualify as a successful restaurant?

If they are making a profit, it absolutely does qualify as a successfull restaurant.  Perhaps not a good one in many eyes but definately successfull.

Originally posted by Torgrim

Originally posted by laokoko

ya but all of you guys acting like those wow clones are a big failure.  When in fact most of them are making money.

Just because a game cut staff, turn it into f2p, loss most of its sub dont' mean it is not making money.  Many of them recover thier cost and is actually making small profit.

 

Plenty of restaurants serve crappy food but they have a bar to serve the regular winos, so does that restaurant qualify as a successful restaurant?

Being a restaurant person, the quick answer is: "YES, as long as they are in the black."

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by MyBoot
God this poor horse is still getting flogged ?

 It's just a puddle of liquified sticky goo at this point.  But I get the feeling many people like getting covered in sticky goo *whistles innocently and walks away*

Nah, we beat the thing until we had glue so we glued what was left back together and have started beating it again.

---

Originally posted by Four0Six
OP:

*Yells as loud as possible*

WOW HAD 10 MILLION PLUS SUBS FOR HOW LONG? AT $15 A MONTH THAT IS $150 MILLION A MONTH.

MONEY, MONEY, MONEY, MONEY. THAT IS THE EVER LOVING REASON THAT ALL WE HAVE NOW IS WOW-CLONES.

IF YOU OR ANYBODY ELSE WANTS SOMETHING OTHER, GO TO SCHOOL LEARN TO WRITE CODE AND MAKE IT. OR WAIT FOR WOW TO DIE.

*storms out, slamming the door behind*

---

That wont fix anything either, There is a reason why mmorpgs take years to make with hundreds of people.

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by Torgrim

Originally posted by laokoko

ya but all of you guys acting like those wow clones are a big failure.  When in fact most of them are making money.

Just because a game cut staff, turn it into f2p, loss most of its sub dont' mean it is not making money.  Many of them recover thier cost and is actually making small profit.

 

Plenty of restaurants serve crappy food but they have a bar to serve the regular winos, so does that restaurant qualify as a successful restaurant?

If they are making a profit, it absolutely does qualify as a successfull restaurant.  Perhaps not a good one in many eyes but definately successfull.

I sead stay a float, but if they make a proft ok then we can talk how much profit, can you expand your business or you have just enough money to pay a new waiter?

You see were I'm getting at?

Originally posted by Nitth

 

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Originally posted by Four0Six
OP:

 

*Yells as loud as possible*

WOW HAD 10 MILLION PLUS SUBS FOR HOW LONG? AT $15 A MONTH THAT IS $150 MILLION A MONTH.

MONEY, MONEY, MONEY, MONEY. THAT IS THE EVER LOVING REASON THAT ALL WE HAVE NOW IS WOW-CLONES.

IF YOU OR ANYBODY ELSE WANTS SOMETHING OTHER, GO TO SCHOOL LEARN TO WRITE CODE AND MAKE IT. OR WAIT FOR WOW TO DIE.

*storms out, slamming the door behind*

---

 

That wont fix anything either, There is a reason why mmorpgs take years to make with hundreds of people.

You are right but there is a point that four missed.  With WoWs money (yes I know his numbers are way wrong because China doesn't have monthly subs they pay for play time so who knows how that affects the bottom line) all the companies want to make a game that brings in that kind of revenue.  If you look at history, what sandbox game comes close?  Eve?

Originally posted by Nitth

 

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---

 

That wont fix anything either, There is a reason why mmorpgs take years to make with hundreds of people.

Oh oh oh... I know this one.

Because it's a freakin' boatload of work to produce even a mediocre one?

Originally posted by Torgrim

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by Torgrim

Originally posted by laokoko

ya but all of you guys acting like those wow clones are a big failure.  When in fact most of them are making money.

Just because a game cut staff, turn it into f2p, loss most of its sub dont' mean it is not making money.  Many of them recover thier cost and is actually making small profit.

 

Plenty of restaurants serve crappy food but they have a bar to serve the regular winos, so does that restaurant qualify as a successful restaurant?

If they are making a profit, it absolutely does qualify as a successfull restaurant.  Perhaps not a good one in many eyes but definately successfull.

 

I sead stay a float, but if they make a proft ok then we can talk how much profit, can you expand your business or you have just enough money to pay a new waiter?

You see were I'm getting at?

you act like it is easy to make money.  Maybe for you it is, but many people are content they have a place to live and food to eat. 

Originally posted by laokoko

Originally posted by Torgrim

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by Torgrim

Originally posted by laokoko

ya but all of you guys acting like those wow clones are a big failure.  When in fact most of them are making money.

Just because a game cut staff, turn it into f2p, loss most of its sub dont' mean it is not making money.  Many of them recover thier cost and is actually making small profit.

 

Plenty of restaurants serve crappy food but they have a bar to serve the regular winos, so does that restaurant qualify as a successful restaurant?

If they are making a profit, it absolutely does qualify as a successfull restaurant.  Perhaps not a good one in many eyes but definately successfull.

 

I sead stay a float, but if they make a proft ok then we can talk how much profit, can you expand your business or you have just enough money to pay a new waiter?

You see were I'm getting at?

you act like it is easy to make money.  Many people are content they have a place to live and food to eat. 

No just that my anolgy failed :(

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by Torgrim

Originally posted by laokoko

ya but all of you guys acting like those wow clones are a big failure.  When in fact most of them are making money.

Just because a game cut staff, turn it into f2p, loss most of its sub dont' mean it is not making money.  Many of them recover thier cost and is actually making small profit.

 

Plenty of restaurants serve crappy food but they have a bar to serve the regular winos, so does that restaurant qualify as a successful restaurant?

If they are making a profit, it absolutely does qualify as a successfull restaurant.  Perhaps not a good one in many eyes but definately successfull.

In their, and their investors eyes, yes. But me as a gamer dont give a shit if a game is making a lot of profit or not, I care only about playing a quality game.

So for me WoW is a huge failure because it is a garbage MMO but due to its financial success has given birth to tons of similar garbage MMOs.

Originally posted by Yamota

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by Torgrim

Originally posted by laokoko

ya but all of you guys acting like those wow clones are a big failure.  When in fact most of them are making money.

Just because a game cut staff, turn it into f2p, loss most of its sub dont' mean it is not making money.  Many of them recover thier cost and is actually making small profit.

 

Plenty of restaurants serve crappy food but they have a bar to serve the regular winos, so does that restaurant qualify as a successful restaurant?

If they are making a profit, it absolutely does qualify as a successfull restaurant.  Perhaps not a good one in many eyes but definately successfull.

In their, and their investors eyes, yes. But me as a gamer dont give a shit if a game is making a lot of profit or not, I care only about playing a quality game.

So for me WoW is a huge failure because it is a garbage MMO but due to its financial success has given birth to tons of similar garbage MMOs.

 That doesn't make WoW a failure. Not to you or anyone else. It just makes it a game you despise. There is a difference. It also does not mean it's not a quality game. Words have meanings.

More to the point you care about playing a quality game you enjoy that has a healthy population. It's no fun playing a MMO by yourself.

For the record there has never been a AAA nonlinear MMO.  No one has risked the time and money to make one. UO was done on a shoestring budget. It would be nice if someone actually put some effort into it an made one.

Originally posted by XAPGames

No disagreement.  Nobody has ever topped WoW at a WoW-like design.  Many have proven that it's foolish to try.

However, I believe it realistic to say that NOT copying WoW is a double edged sword.  It might please those who don't want WoW.  But the WoW fans who do stumble in based on marketing hype or curiousity, the first thing out of their mouths... "But it's nothing like WoW, it's not as good as WoW", and so on.  By my estimation, around 4 million people started MMORPGs with WoW.  Those people define MMORPG by WoW itself.  They expect all MMORPGs to be just like WoW.  When one is not, they don't understand why.

 

 Ahh, but guess what, MMOs are no longer thought of as a "western" thing, or an "american" thing. Globally, there are far more MMO players that DO NOT PLAY WoW than those that do.

To go WoW clone is a quick trip to F2P and is well beyond a double edged sword because you first stab yourself in the foot for thinking it, then slitting your own throat for actually doing it and every single game that has come out in the last 3 years other than Rift has paid the price.

Target an audience you know is looking for a game to call home that you can actually meet, anyone targetting WoW players is going to fail because no company has the money, resources, IP and TIME to make such a game...blizzard had all of it, there was a chance that a TES game could do it but the corporation that owns that IP placed it into the hands of someone not capable of targetting the IPs fanbase and instead is going to make TES:DaoC...what is left? What IP? A song of fire and ice? it doesnt have the game IP needed to draw in such a large playerbase.

Just plain better off making a sandbox that can reach out to a larger audience than old timer sandbox players, something that isnt just "asian" or "western" and taking a bite out of the MMO playerbase isntead of shooting for the stars with a piss poor themepark that doesnt measure up.

Either way, I cant think of a single western MMO maker that isnt stagnant and stuck in the past rehashing tired old MMO ideas...you can see it in the way they try to call instances something different...like campaigns...to try to sound like they have a new way of making games.

All I cn say, is this:

All open world ffa pvp with full loot, and in some case, perma death, are a ticket to hacking, weather you want it or not. That is why such games will always have fiew players playing.

Sandbox or any other games that start with PVE and have the choice to choose PVP or not are going to be most profitable.

Or have two servers, one for PVE and one for PVP.

In any game you have to put in PVE "AI" to make world populated, for both PVE and PVP.