Trending Games | EverQuest Next | Guild Wars 2 | World of Warcraft | Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn

  Network:  FPSguru RTSguru
Login:  Password:   Remember?  
Show Quick Gamelist Jump to Random Game
Members:2,920,769 Users Online:0
Games:760  Posts:6,312,515
Recent forum postsRSS
Active threads
Cloud view
List all forums
General Forums
Developers Corner General Discussion
Popular Game Forums
Click a status to find game forum
Game Forums
Click a letter to find game forum
A-C
2029 Online 2112: Revolution 2Moons 4Story 8BitMMO 9 Dragons A Mystical Land A Tale in the Desert III A3 ACE Online ARGO Online Aberoth Absolute Force Online Absolute Terror Achaea Adellion Aerrevan Aetolia, the Midnight Age Age of Armor Age of Conan Age of Empires Online Age of Mourning Age of Wulin Age of Wushu Aida Arenas Aika Aion Albion Online Alganon All Points Bulletin (APB) Allods Online Altis Gates Amazing World Anarchy Online Ancients of Fasaria Andromeda 5 Angels Online Angry Birds Epic Anime Ninja Anime Pirates Anime Trumps Anmynor Anno Online Applo Arcane Hearts Arcane Legends ArchLord ArcheAge Archeblade Archlord X Ascend: Hand of Kul Asda 2 Asda Story Ashen Empires Asheron's Call Asheron's Call 2 Astera Online Astonia III Astro Empires Astro Lords: Oort CLoud Asura Force Atlantica Online Atriarch Aura Kingdom Aurora Blade Auto Assault Avatar Star Battle Dawn Battle Dawn Galaxies Battle for Graxia Battle of 3 Kingdoms Battle of the Immortals Battlecruiser Online Battlestar Galactica Online Battlestar Reloaded Beyond Protocol Black Aftermath Black Desert Black Gold Black Prophecy Black Prophecy Tactics: Nexus Conflict Blacklight Retribution Blade & Soul Blade Hunter Blade Wars Blazing Throne Bless Blitz 1941 Blood and Jade Bloodlines Champions Boot Hill Heroes Borderlands 2 Borderlands: The Pre-Sequel Bound by Flame Bounty Bay Online Brain Storm Bravada Bravely Default Bravely Second Brawl Busters. Brick-Force Bright Shadow Bullet Run Business Tycoon Online CTRacer Cabal Online Caesary Call of Camelot Call of Gods Call of Thrones Camelot Unchained Canaan Online Cardmon Hero Cartoon Universe CasinoRPG Cast & Conquer Castle Empire Castlot Celtic Heroes Champions Online Champions of Regnum Chaos Online Child of Light Chrono Tales Citadel of Sorcery CitiesXL Citizen Zero City of Decay City of Heroes City of Steam City of Transformers City of Villains Civilization Online Clan Lord Clash of Clans Cloud Nine Club Penguin Colony of War Command & Conquer: Tiberium Alliances Company of Heroes Online Conquer Online Conquer Online 3 Continent of the Ninth (C9) Core Blaze Core Exiles Corum Online Craft of Gods Crimecraft Crimelife 2 Cronous Crota II Crusaders of Solaris Cultures Online Cyber Monster 2 Cyberpunk 2077 Céiron Wars
D-F
D&D Online DC Universe DK Online DOTA DOTA 2 DUST 514 DV8: Exile Dalethaan Dance Groove Online Dark Age of Camelot Dark Ages Dark Legends Dark Orbit Dark Relic: Prelude Dark Solstice Dark Souls 2 Dark and Light DarkEden Online DarkSpace Darkblood Online Darkest Dungeon Darkfall Darkfall: Unholy Wars Darkwind: War on Wheels Das Tal Dawn of Fantasy Dawntide DayZ Dead Earth Dead Frontier Dead Island Dead Island 2 Dead Island: Riptide Deco Online Deep Down Deepworld Defiance Deicide Online Dekaron Demons at the Horizon Desert Operations Destiny Diablo 3 Diamonin Digimon Battle Dino Storm Disciple Divergence Divina Divine Souls Divinity: Original Sin Dofus Dominus Online Dragon Age: Inquisition Dragon Ball Online Dragon Born Online Dragon Crusade Dragon Empires Dragon Eternity Dragon Fin Soup Dragon Nest Dragon Oath Dragon Pals Dragon Raja Dragon's Call Dragon's Call II Dragon's Prophet DragonSky DragonSoul Dragona Dragonica Dragons and Titans Drakengard 3 Dream of Mirror Online Dreamland Online Dreamlords: The Reawakening Drift City Duels Dungeon Blitz Dungeon Fighter Online Dungeon Overlord Dungeon Party Dungeon Rampage Dungeon Runners Dungeon of the Endless Dynastica Dynasty Warriors Online Dynasty of the Magi EIN (Epicus Incognitus) EVE Online Earth Eternal Earth and Beyond Earthrise Eclipse War Ecol Tactics Online Eden Eternal Edge of Space Einherjar - The Viking's Blood Elder Scrolls Online Eldevin Elf Online Elite: Dangerous Embers of Caerus Emil Chronicle Online Empire Empire & State Empire Craft Empire Universe 3 EmpireQuest Empires of Galldon End of Nations Endless Ages Endless Blue Moon Online Endless Online Entropia Universe EpicDuel Erebus: Travia Reborn Eredan Eternal Blade Eternal Lands Eternal Saga Ether Fields Ether Saga Online Eudemons Online EuroGangster EverEmber Online EverQuest Next EverQuest Online Adventures Evernight Everquest Everquest II Evony Exarch Exorace F.E.A.R. Online Face of Mankind Fairyland Online Fall of Rome Fallen Earth Fallen Sword Fallout 4 Fallout Online Family Guy Online Fantage Fantasy Earth Zero Fantasy Realm Online Fantasy Tales Online Fantasy Worlds: Rhynn Faunasphere Faxion Online Fearless Fantasy Ferentus Ferion Fiesta Online Final Fantasy Type-0 HD Final Fantasy XI Final Fantasy XIV Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn Firefall Fists of Fu Florensia Flyff Football Manager Live Football Superstars Force of Arms Forge Forsaken Uprising Forsaken World Fortnite Fortuna Forum for Discussion of Everlight Freaky Creatures Free Realms Freesky Online Freeworld Fung Wan Online Furcadia Fury Fusion Fall
G-L
GalaXseeds Galactic Command Online Game of Thrones: Seven Kingdoms Gameglobe Gate To Heavens Gates of Andaron Gatheryn Gauntlet Gekkeiju Online Ghost Online Ghost Recon Online Gladiatus Glitch Global Agenda Global Soccer Gloria Victis Glory of Gods GoGoRacer Goal Line Blitz Gods and Heroes GodsWar Online Golemizer Golf Star GoonZu Online Graal Kingdoms Granado Espada Online Grand Chase Grand Fantasia Grepolis Grimlands Guild Wars Guild Wars 2 Guild Wars Factions Guild Wars Nightfall H1Z1 Habbo Hotel Hailan Rising HaloSphere2 Haven & Hearth Hawken Heart Forth Alicia Hearthstone: Heroes of Warcraft Helbreath Hellgate Hellgate: London Hello Kitty Online Hero Online Hero Zero Hero's Journey Hero: 108 Online HeroSmash Heroes & Generals Heroes & Legends: Conquerors of Kolhar Heroes in the Sky Heroes of Atlan Heroes of Bestia Heroes of Gaia Heroes of Might and Magic Online Heroes of Thessalonica Heroes of Three Kingdoms Heroes of the Storm Hex Holic Online Hostile Space Hunter Blade Huxley Icewind Dale: Enhanced Edition Illutia Illyriad Immortals USA Imperator Imperian Inferno Legend Infestation: Survivor Stories Infinite Crisis Infinity Infinity Iris Online Iron Grip: Marauders Irth Worlds Island Forge Islands of War Istaria: Chronicles of the Gifted Jade Dynasty Jagged Alliance Online Juggernaut Jumpgate Jumpgate Evolution KAL Online Kakele Online Kaos War Karos Online Kartuga Kicks Online King of Kings 3 Kingdom Heroes Kingdom Under Fire II Kingdom of Drakkar Kingory Kings Era Kings and Legends Kings of the Realm KingsRoad Kitsu Saga Kiwarriors Knight Age Knight Online Knights of Dream City Kothuria Kung Foo! Kunlun Online Kyn L.A.W. LEGO Universe La Tale Land of Chaos Online Landmark Lands of Hope: Redemption LastChaos League of Angels League of Legends - Clash of Fates Legend of Edda: Vengeance Legend of Golden Plume Legend of Grimrock 2 Legend of Katha Legend of Mir 2 Legend of Mir 3 Legendary Champions Lego Minifigures Online Lichdom: Battlemage Life is Feudal Light of Nova Lime Odyssey Line of Defense Lineage Lineage Eternal: Twilight Resistance Lineage II Linkrealms Loong Online Lord of the Rings Online Lords Online Lords of the Fallen Lost Saga Lucent Heart Lunia Lusternia: Age of Ascension Luvinia World
M-Q
MU Online Mabinogi Maestia: Rise of Keledus MagiKnights Magic Barrage Magic World Online Manga Fighter MapleStory Martial Heroes Marvel Heroes Marvel Super Hero Squad Online Marvel: Avengers Alliance Mass Effect 4 MechWarrior Online Megaten Meridian 59 : Evolution Merlin MetalMercs Metaplace Metin 2 MicroVolts Middle-earth: Shadow of Mordor Midkemia Online Might & Magic Heroes: Kingdoms Might & Magic X: Legacy MilMo Minecraft Mini Fighter Minions of Mirth Ministry of War Monato Esprit Monkey King Online Monkey Quest Monster & Me Monster Madness Online MonsterMMORPG Moonlight Online: Tales of Eternal Blood Moonrise Mordavia Mortal Online Mourning My Lands Myst Online: URU Live Myth Angels Online Myth War Myth War 2 Mythborne Mytheon Mythic Saga Mythos N.E.O Online NIDA Online Nadirim Naviage: The Power of Capital Navy Field Need for Speed World Nemexia Neo's Land NeoSteam Neocron Nether Neverwinter Nexus: The Kingdom Of The Winds NinjaTrick NosTale Novus Aeterno Oberin Odin Quest Odyssey RPG Ogre Island Omerta 3 Online Boxing Manager Onverse Oort Online Order & Chaos Online Order of Magic Original Blood Origins Return Origins of Malu Orion's Belt Otherland Forums OverSoul Overkings Overwatch Oz Online Oz World Pandora Saga Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen Panzar Parabellum Parallel Kingdom Parfait Station Path of Exile Pathfinder Online Perfect World Perpetuum Online Persona V Phantasy Star Online 2 Phantasy Star Universe Phoenix Dynasty Online Phylon Pi Story Picaroon Pillars of Eternity Pirate Galaxy Pirate Storm Pirate101 PirateKing Online Pirates of the Burning Sea Pirates of the Caribbean Online Pixie Hollow Planeshift Planet Arkadia Planet Calypso PlanetSide 2 Planetside Planets³ Playboy Manager Pocket Legends Pockie Ninja Pockie Pirates Pockie Saints Pokémon X and Y PoxNora Prime World Prime: Battle for Dominus Priston Tale Priston Tale II Prius Online Prodigy Project Blackout Project Gorgon Project Powder Project Titan Forums Project Wiki Project Zomboid Puzzle Pirates Quest for Infamy Quickhit Football
R-S
R2 Online RAN Online RF Online ROSE Online Rage of 3 Kingdoms Ragnarok Online Ragnarok Online II RaiderZ Rail Nation Rakion Rappelz RappelzSEA Ravenmarch Realm Fighter Realm of Sierra Realm of the Mad God Realm of the Titans Realms Online Rebel Galaxy Reclamation Red Stone Red War: Edem's Curse Regnum Online Remnant Knights Renaissance Repulse Requiem: Memento Mori Rift RiotZone Rise Rise of Dragonian Era Rise of Empire Rise of the Tycoon Risen 3: Titan Lords Rising of King Risk Your Life Rivality Rockfree Rohan: Blood Feud Role Play Worlds Roll n Rock Roma Victor Romadoria Rosh Online Roto X Rubies of Eventide Ruin Online Rumble Fighter Runes of Magic Runescape Rust Rusty Hearts Ryzom S4 League SAGA SD Gundam Capsule Fighter Online SMITE SUN Sacred 3 Sagramore Salem SaySayGirls Scarlet Blade Scions of Fate Seal Online: Evolution Second Chance Heroes Second Life Secret of the Solstice Seed Serenia Fantasy Seven Seas Saga Seven Souls Online Sevencore Shadow Realms Shadow of Legend Shadowbane Shadowgate Shadowrun Online Shaiya Shards Online Shattered Galaxy Sho Online Shot Online Shroud of the Avatar SideQuest Siege on Stars Sigonyth: Desert Eternity Silkroad Online Skyblade Skyforge SmashMuck Champions Smoo Online Soldier Front Soul Master Soul Order Online Soul of Guardian South Park: The Stick of Truth Space Heroes Universe Sparta: War of Empires Spellcasters Sphere Spiral Knights Spirit Tales Splash Fighters Squad Wars Star Citizen Star Conflict Star Sonata 2 Star Stable Star Supremacy Star Trek Online Star Trek: Infinite Space Star Wars Galaxies Star Wars: Clone Wars Adventures Star Wars: The Old Republic StarQuest Online Starbound Stargate Worlds Starlight Story Starpires State of Decay SteelWar Online Stone Age 2 Stormfall: Age of War Stormthrone Storybricks Stronghold Kingdoms Styx: Master of Shadows Sudden Attack Supremacy 1914 Supreme Destiny Sword Girls Sword of Destiny: Rise of Aions SwordX Swords of Heavens Swordsman
T-Z
TERA TS Online TUG Tabula Rasa Tactica Online Tales Runner Tales of Fantasy Tales of Pirates Tales of Pirates II Tales of Solaris Talisman Online Tamer Saga Tank Ace Tantra Online Tatsumaki: Land at War Terra Militaris TerraWorld Online Terraria Thang Online The 4th Coming The Agency The Aurora World The Banner Saga The Black Watchmen The Chronicle The Chronicles of Spellborn The Crew The Division The Epic Might The Hammers End The Incredible Adventures of Van Helsing The Incredible Adventures of Van Helsing 2 The Legend of Ares The Lost Titans The Matrix Online The Mighty Quest for Epic Loot The Missing Ink The Mummy Online The Myth of Soma The Pride of Taern The Realm Online The Repopulation The Secret World The Sims Online The Strategems The West The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt Theralon There Therian Saga Thrones of Chaos Tibia Tibia Micro Edition Tiger Knight Titan Siege Titans of Time Toontown Online Top Speed Topia Online Torchlight Torment: Tides of Numenera Total Domination Transformers Universe Transistor Transverse Traveller AR Travia Online Travian Triad Wars Trials of Ascension Tribal Hero Tribal Wars Tribes Universe Trickster Online Trove Troy Online True Fantasy Live Online Turf Battles Twelve Sky Twelve Sky 2 Twilight War Tynon U.B. Funkeys UFO Online URDEAD Online Ultima Forever: Quest for the Avatar Ultima Online Ultima X: Odyssey Ultimate Naruto Ultimate Soccer Boss Uncharted Waters Online Undercover 2: Merc Wars Underlight Unification Wars Universe Online Utopia Valkyrie Sky Vampire Lord Online Vanguard: Saga of Heroes Vanquish Space Vector City Racers Vendetta Online Victory - Age of Racing Vindictus Virtonomics Vis Gladius Visions of Zosimos VoidExpanse Voyage Century Online W.E.L.L. Online WAR (Warhammer Online) WAR2 Glory WYD Global Wakfu War Thunder War of 2012 War of Angels War of Legends War of Mercenaries War of Thrones War of the Immortals WarFlow Waren Story Warflare Wargame1942 Warhammer 40,000: Eternal Crusade Warhammer 40K: Dark Millennium Online Warhammer Online: Wrath of Heroes Warkeepers Warrior Epic Wartune Wasteland 2 WebLords Wild West Online WildStar Wind of Luck WindSlayer 2 Wings of Destiny Wish Wizard101 Wizardry Online Wizards and Champions Wonder King Wonderland Online World Golf Tour World of Battles World of Darkness World of Heroes World of Kung Fu World of Pirates World of Speed World of Tanks World of Tanks Generals World of Warcraft World of Warplanes World of Warriors World of Warships World of the Living Dead WorldAlpha Wurm Online Xenoblade Chronicles: X Xenocell Xiah Xsyon Xulu YS Online Yitien ZU Online Zentia Zero Online Zero Online: The Andromeda Crisis Zodiac Online Zombies Ate My Pizza eRepublik

MMORPG.com Discussion Forums

General Discussion

General Discussion 

Hardware  » Will the PlayStation 4 and Xbox 720 push game programmers to finally thread their games properly?

2 Pages « 1 2 Search
37 posts found
  Ridelynn

Elite Member

Joined: 12/19/10
Posts: 3660

2/01/13 10:58:27 AM#21


Originally posted by Phry
must admit to being more than a little puzzled, why would they choose to base the 'next gen' consoles on processors that are only capable of running at 1.6ghz, to me it just doesnt make sense, we're already seeing multicore processors for PC's running at 3.0+ ghz  and we're not even talking high end, but the mid range PC's as for Cores, 8 isnt really that awesome a number anymore, its already been exceeded.

It looks more like the 'power gap' between PC's and Consoles just gets wider and wider, when even a mid range PC is capable of far more than a console that hasnt even hit the streets yet


Most consumer software, and video games in general, today are not CPU constrained. It doesn't take a faster CPU to deliver HD graphics, or more polygons, or higher resolution textures. That all leans on the GPU.

Nintendo took a lot of flak because the CPU in the Wii U was pretty poor comparatively (3-core PPC 750 at 1.24G) - and that's more than enough for games that are coming out today. The CPU doens't run much code - it handles user input, (sometimes) physics, AI, networking... and ringleaders the GPU computations, but it's not the typical bottleneck in a game, particularly in a console game.

The PS3 has 9 cores (1 dual core PPE and 8 single-core SPE's), one of which is reserved for the OS, the rest to game. We haven't seen anything come even remotely close to stressing the capability of that, besides FoldingAtHome and some specialized software written for the original PS3's with Linux installed (FBI, Air Force, etc).

Now, I won't argue that having more CPU power is a bad thing: it's not - you can't leverage it if you don't have it in the first place, so maybe by having this horsepower available developers will come up with some novel uses for it (and as Quiz was indicating in his OP, that we may see this trickle back into PC gaming, where we've had many cores available for a long while now).

I think, that as far as gaming goes, we won't. We've had multi-core CPU's availble for a long time now, particularly in the PS3, and we still seem to be stuck in a low-core (rarely does a game reach past dual cores) DX9.0c world. Unless game engines start to really push multicores (and they may, if they have it widely availble in the consoles) for items other than graphics - maybe we'll see new input that stresses general computing (higher-definition Kinect-style input to augment (not replace) traditional input devices, better speech recognition, etc), or maybe we'll get real AI (like the type that adapts and learns, not just follows rote static strategies), who knows... we haven't had anything terribly riveting since Physics hit it big (although MS would like to think Kinect is that revolutionary), but I don't see anything terribly exciting coming anytime soon.

-----

All of the above, plus
These things are designed to sit in your living room, underneath your TV. Power draw is a big concern, bth while in use and while standby (Console Power Report), as is the noise the consoles make (Tips on how to quiet the cooling fan on a 360). That is why we are seeing design spec rumors with "only" 1.6Ghz CPU's and 7770-level graphics. Sure, you could fit more powerful hardware in there, but if you had a box the size of an ATX mid-tower, all the console folks would say "WTF, how can I fit that under my TV", or "It's nice and small, but sounds like a garbage disposal ate a badger because the fans are so loud", and Greenpeace would complain about how many coal power plants it takes to keep all those millions of units running for extended CoD/BF4 fights.

  JayFiveAlive

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/04/09
Posts: 488

2/01/13 11:11:06 AM#22
Originally posted by Phry

must admit to being more than a little puzzled, why would they choose to base the 'next gen' consoles on processors that are only capable of running at 1.6ghz, to me it just doesnt make sense, we're already seeing multicore processors for PC's running at 3.0+ ghz  and we're not even talking high end, but the mid range PC's as for Cores, 8 isnt really that awesome a number anymore, its already been exceeded.

It looks more like the 'power gap' between PC's and Consoles just gets wider and wider, when even a mid range PC is capable of far more than a console that hasnt even hit the streets yet

It's not a fair comparison though. Consoles run their GUI and a game with usually slightly modified hardware to suck extra performance out of it. PCs are running a ton of things all the time, have drivers that need to talk to other things, etc etc... I'd be surprised if the true power of even a 3-4 year old graphics card has ever been reached/used in the PC consumer market. Consoles tend to use more of their hardware's potential. Games can look great after like 5-6-7-8 years on a console. Imagine getting that out of a PC and still playing a very good quality without being choppy/slowdowns or needing to reduce graphics quality.

 

I know my answer isn't necessarily perfect, but it's the general idea anyway haha.

  BadSpock

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/21/04
Posts: 7769

Logic be damned!

2/01/13 11:29:46 AM#23

Well yeah I don't think anyone was saying or could logically say that you can make an apples to apples comparison between PC and Console hardware based soley on the specs/speed.

I have heard on the rumor mills that the SDK for the new Xbox is the most amazing, fluid, easy to work with, and powerful SDK *unnamed large company* has ever worked with.

Which translates roughly to better optimization and "cleaner" code as well as ease of development and integration for more advanced features.

The rumors state/know that the next Xbox at least will have a full DirectX 11.1 capable custom AMD video card, it's all 64 bit etc.

I'd say it's a pretty good bet to guess that the next generation of games will be all 11.1 with all the bells and whistles that brings (like Tesselation) and that the games are going to be taking full advantages of the 8 core (probably 7 cause 1 for OS like PS3) and all the multi-threading etc.

Just because the PS3 didn't, and because the modern PC doesn't - it doesn't mean the next gen won't.

With Intel and AMD both pushing the # of cores higher and even rumors of Intel bringing out 8-15 core CPU's and such it's not hard to imagine games and game developers are going to start pushing performance to multi-core systems.

In fact I bet the Xbox Next/720/Infinity whatever SDK is designed for it specifically.

Now Playing: Destiny, WoW

  Quizzical

Guide

Joined: 12/11/08
Posts: 13789

 
OP  2/01/13 12:19:01 PM#24
Originally posted by Ridelynn

 


Originally posted by Phry
must admit to being more than a little puzzled, why would they choose to base the 'next gen' consoles on processors that are only capable of running at 1.6ghz, to me it just doesnt make sense, we're already seeing multicore processors for PC's running at 3.0+ ghz  and we're not even talking high end, but the mid range PC's as for Cores, 8 isnt really that awesome a number anymore, its already been exceeded.

 

It looks more like the 'power gap' between PC's and Consoles just gets wider and wider, when even a mid range PC is capable of far more than a console that hasnt even hit the streets yet


 

Most consumer software, and video games in general, today are not CPU constrained. It doesn't take a faster CPU to deliver HD graphics, or more polygons, or higher resolution textures. That all leans on the GPU.

Nintendo took a lot of flak because the CPU in the Wii U was pretty poor comparatively (3-core PPC 750 at 1.24G) - and that's more than enough for games that are coming out today. The CPU doens't run much code - it handles user input, (sometimes) physics, AI, networking... and ringleaders the GPU computations, but it's not the typical bottleneck in a game, particularly in a console game.

The PS3 has 9 cores (1 dual core PPE and 8 single-core SPE's), one of which is reserved for the OS, the rest to game. We haven't seen anything come even remotely close to stressing the capability of that, besides FoldingAtHome and some specialized software written for the original PS3's with Linux installed (FBI, Air Force, etc).

Now, I won't argue that having more CPU power is a bad thing: it's not - you can't leverage it if you don't have it in the first place, so maybe by having this horsepower available developers will come up with some novel uses for it (and as Quiz was indicating in his OP, that we may see this trickle back into PC gaming, where we've had many cores available for a long while now).

I think, that as far as gaming goes, we won't. We've had multi-core CPU's availble for a long time now, particularly in the PS3, and we still seem to be stuck in a low-core (rarely does a game reach past dual cores) DX9.0c world. Unless game engines start to really push multicores (and they may, if they have it widely availble in the consoles) for items other than graphics - maybe we'll see new input that stresses general computing (higher-definition Kinect-style input to augment (not replace) traditional input devices, better speech recognition, etc), or maybe we'll get real AI (like the type that adapts and learns, not just follows rote static strategies), who knows... we haven't had anything terribly riveting since Physics hit it big (although MS would like to think Kinect is that revolutionary), but I don't see anything terribly exciting coming anytime soon.

-----

All of the above, plus
These things are designed to sit in your living room, underneath your TV. Power draw is a big concern, bth while in use and while standby (Console Power Report), as is the noise the consoles make (Tips on how to quiet the cooling fan on a 360). That is why we are seeing design spec rumors with "only" 1.6Ghz CPU's and 7770-level graphics. Sure, you could fit more powerful hardware in there, but if you had a box the size of an ATX mid-tower, all the console folks would say "WTF, how can I fit that under my TV", or "It's nice and small, but sounds like a garbage disposal ate a badger because the fans are so loud", and Greenpeace would complain about how many coal power plants it takes to keep all those millions of units running for extended CoD/BF4 fights.

How much CPU power a game needs varies wildly from game to game.  GPUs are built to do certain things well, which loosely amounts to having a handful of very short functions (~10 lines of code, not counting declaring variables) run an enormous number of times with only the inputs to the functions changing and relatively little communication with the CPU.  (If you need the CPU to send your video card 1 byte of data per 100 float point operations that the GPU has to execute, you'll likely be bottlenecked by the PCI Express bus, not the GPU.)  Code that fits those constraints can run well on the GPU.  Anything that doesn't has to run on the CPU.

And what can't be run on the GPU depends to some degree on what graphics API you're using.  If you want to do particle effects in OpenGL 4 or DirectX 11, for example, you can tell the video card that you want 2000 particles and it can generate them from some token amount of input data.  Or it could be 2000 particles one frame, 3000 the next, 1500 the frame after that, or whatever, and the GPU can just do it with minimal involvement from the CPU.  If you want to do that in OpenGL 3.2 (likely also DirectX 10, but I'm not certain), you can kind of do it with geometry shaders, but it's a lot more restrictive.

If you want to do it with an older API such as DirectX 9.0c, every single primitive must be to the video card from the processor. The reason a DirectX 9.0c game that wants to have rainfall doesn't show thousands of raindrops on the screen at a time is that it basically can't without carrying a huge performance hit.  Instead, you get 10' long rain spears that look like they should one-shot you if they hit you.  With newer APIs, having an enormous number of raindrops is pretty easy to do.

But there are still a lot of things that simply can't run well on a GPU.  You can do minor branching and looping on a GPU, but if you need to do more complex branching or very long loops, that has to use the CPU.  (Well, you may sometimes be able to technically do it on the GPU, but it will kill your performance.)  If you need to have access to change a lot of data all at once, that needs to be done on the CPU.  If you need to be able to see a lot of data at once, then unless it fits neatly into a simple lookup table (or a few of them) so that you can use textures, it has to be done on the CPU.  It's not at all obvious just from playing a game exactly how the internal code works.

-----

My focus in making this thread wasn't hoping that games would be able to figure out how to use more CPU power.  Rather, it was hoping that games that do happen to need a lot of CPU power would thread their code to be able to use many CPU cores.  When Guild Wars 2 players with an FX-6100 are complaining of a CPU bottleneck and the game doesn't scale past three cores, ArenaNet is doing something wrong.

One decent test of how well a game is threaded is to say, let's suppose that you had a hypothetical CPU with 64 Jaguar cores (or Piledriver cores or Ivy Bridge cores or ARM Cortex A15 cores or whatever).  How low would you be able to clock those cores and still get a steady 60 frames per second?  Ignore that a given CPU architecture can't go below some fixed clock speed and still function, and ignore the engineering problems of feeding memory to that many CPU cores.

If your game would run great on a 1 GHz CPU with lots of CPU cores, then your threading model is very good, even if it's purely single-threaded.  If you would need 2 GHz, that's not that bad, but it would be nice if it were better.  If you need 3 GHz, that's downright mediocre.  In the PC market, if you need 3 GHz, you can make your system requirements higher and implicitly blame customers for having slow computers.  If the Xbox 720 and PlayStation 4 only offer you 1.6 GHz, you'd better thread your game better or no one will be able to run it well.

-----

The Cell processor in the PS3 has one PPE that looks like it's basically a typical CPU core, but the rest of its "CPU cores" are SPEs that are much more restricted in their functionality.  I'm not sure exactly how restricted they are, but I suspect that it's enough to make fairly simple game threading models simply not work.

If you had a CPU that could do 1 PFLOPS of 16-bit floating point addition, but couldn't do anything else, that games would be unable to push that wouldn't be because 1 PFLOPS isn't enough performance.  It  would be because the needed versatility simply wasn't there.  Making a game perform decently on such a restricted chip would be nearly impossible.

  Quizzical

Guide

Joined: 12/11/08
Posts: 13789

 
OP  2/01/13 12:21:47 PM#25
Originally posted by JayFiveAlive
Originally posted by Phry

must admit to being more than a little puzzled, why would they choose to base the 'next gen' consoles on processors that are only capable of running at 1.6ghz, to me it just doesnt make sense, we're already seeing multicore processors for PC's running at 3.0+ ghz  and we're not even talking high end, but the mid range PC's as for Cores, 8 isnt really that awesome a number anymore, its already been exceeded.

It looks more like the 'power gap' between PC's and Consoles just gets wider and wider, when even a mid range PC is capable of far more than a console that hasnt even hit the streets yet

It's not a fair comparison though. Consoles run their GUI and a game with usually slightly modified hardware to suck extra performance out of it. PCs are running a ton of things all the time, have drivers that need to talk to other things, etc etc... I'd be surprised if the true power of even a 3-4 year old graphics card has ever been reached/used in the PC consumer market. Consoles tend to use more of their hardware's potential. Games can look great after like 5-6-7-8 years on a console. Imagine getting that out of a PC and still playing a very good quality without being choppy/slowdowns or needing to reduce graphics quality.

 

I know my answer isn't necessarily perfect, but it's the general idea anyway haha.

Open Task Manager and see just how much CPU power those background processes are using.  If everything except the game you're playing and the system idle process adds up to more than about 3%, then you should consider closing some programs--and if it's not obvious which programs to close, then you may have a bloatware (or worse, malware) problem.

  JayFiveAlive

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/04/09
Posts: 488

2/01/13 12:28:01 PM#26
Originally posted by Quizzical
Originally posted by JayFiveAlive
Originally posted by Phry

must admit to being more than a little puzzled, why would they choose to base the 'next gen' consoles on processors that are only capable of running at 1.6ghz, to me it just doesnt make sense, we're already seeing multicore processors for PC's running at 3.0+ ghz  and we're not even talking high end, but the mid range PC's as for Cores, 8 isnt really that awesome a number anymore, its already been exceeded.

It looks more like the 'power gap' between PC's and Consoles just gets wider and wider, when even a mid range PC is capable of far more than a console that hasnt even hit the streets yet

It's not a fair comparison though. Consoles run their GUI and a game with usually slightly modified hardware to suck extra performance out of it. PCs are running a ton of things all the time, have drivers that need to talk to other things, etc etc... I'd be surprised if the true power of even a 3-4 year old graphics card has ever been reached/used in the PC consumer market. Consoles tend to use more of their hardware's potential. Games can look great after like 5-6-7-8 years on a console. Imagine getting that out of a PC and still playing a very good quality without being choppy/slowdowns or needing to reduce graphics quality.

 

I know my answer isn't necessarily perfect, but it's the general idea anyway haha.

Open Task Manager and see just how much CPU power those background processes are using.  If everything except the game you're playing and the system idle process adds up to more than about 3%, then you should consider closing some programs--and if it's not obvious which programs to close, then you may have a bloatware (or worse, malware) problem.

lol, yes, but you get my point I hope :P

  MindTrigger

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/19/07
Posts: 2628

2/01/13 12:28:01 PM#27

The only way consoles are going to intrigue me is if they make the hardware upgradable, or they make the devices much cheaper, with a 2 year life span.  And even then I want the hardware to be over the top powerful, so the console is super powerful during its life.

Point is, I look at the 360 on our awesome Samsung TV, and it just looks like ass.  Has for years.  This is no longer acceptable.

A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.

  JayFiveAlive

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/04/09
Posts: 488

2/01/13 12:29:25 PM#28
Originally posted by MindTrigger

The only way consoles are going to intrigue me if they make the hardware upgradable, or they make the devices much cheaper, with a 2 year life span.  And even then I want the hardware to be over the top powerful, so the console is super powerful during its life.

Point is, I look at the 360 on our awesome Samsung TV, and it just looks like ass.  Has for years.  This is no longer acceptable.

If consoles turn into PCs, then it's the death of consoles... sounds like you want a PC, not a next-gen console. It's not going to happen.

  Quizzical

Guide

Joined: 12/11/08
Posts: 13789

 
OP  2/01/13 12:30:00 PM#29
Originally posted by BadSpock

I'd say it's a pretty good bet to guess that the next generation of games will be all 11.1 with all the bells and whistles that brings (like Tesselation) and that the games are going to be taking full advantages of the 8 core (probably 7 cause 1 for OS like PS3) and all the multi-threading etc.

Actually, I'd expect the PS4 and Xbox 720 games that use tessellation appropriately to be a distinct minority for quite some time.  Most computer programmers don't have the math background for it, let alone artists.  Every single model that is going to use tessellation has to have data built in to tell the GPU how to tessellate it, which means that whatever you do with tessellation needs to be something that your artists can handle.  Any tools that cover up the mathematics well enough that artists can handle it aren't going to enable anywhere near the full power of what tessellation can really do.

  MindTrigger

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/19/07
Posts: 2628

2/01/13 12:35:23 PM#30
Originally posted by JayFiveAlive
Originally posted by MindTrigger

The only way consoles are going to intrigue me if they make the hardware upgradable, or they make the devices much cheaper, with a 2 year life span.  And even then I want the hardware to be over the top powerful, so the console is super powerful during its life.

Point is, I look at the 360 on our awesome Samsung TV, and it just looks like ass.  Has for years.  This is no longer acceptable.

If consoles turn into PCs, then it's the death of consoles... sounds like you want a PC, not a next-gen console. It's not going to happen.

Wrong.  What I don't want is a console that basically already has, at best, mediocre graphics capability at launch, and then ages horribly over the course of eight or so years of its life.  Seeing my daughter use the 360 on our incredible Samsung TV makes me throw up in my mouth a little.  Especially in contrast to my gaming PC.

Also, computer hardware costs nothing compared to what it cost eight years ago.  If they are selling these new consoles for $500-600+ at launch, I'll piss myself laughing at the idiots who buy them.

 

A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.

  Quizzical

Guide

Joined: 12/11/08
Posts: 13789

 
OP  2/01/13 12:42:28 PM#31
Originally posted by MindTrigger
Originally posted by JayFiveAlive
Originally posted by MindTrigger

The only way consoles are going to intrigue me if they make the hardware upgradable, or they make the devices much cheaper, with a 2 year life span.  And even then I want the hardware to be over the top powerful, so the console is super powerful during its life.

Point is, I look at the 360 on our awesome Samsung TV, and it just looks like ass.  Has for years.  This is no longer acceptable.

If consoles turn into PCs, then it's the death of consoles... sounds like you want a PC, not a next-gen console. It's not going to happen.

Wrong.  What I don't want is a console that basically already has, at best, mediocre graphics capability at launch, and then ages horribly over the course of eight or so years of its life.  Seeing my daughter use the 360 on our incredible Samsung TV makes me throw up in my mouth a little.  Especially in contrast to my gaming PC.

Also, computer hardware costs nothing compared to what it cost eight years ago.  If they are selling these new consoles for $500-600+ at launch, I'll piss myself laughing at the idiots who buy them.

 

I think that much of the point of going with Jaguar cores and integrated graphics is precisely to make consoles much cheaper to build--and thus, so that you can sell them much more cheaply.

It's possible that the consoles could be expensive at first if they're trying to use a silicon interposer or DDR4 memory or a 20 nm process node before they're ready, or if the first generation has an enormous die size or MCM before subsequent generations clean it up into a smaller SoC.  But it's better to make a console that you have to charge $500 for at first and then can break even at $300 a year later than to trail badly in performance with only a minor cost advantage for all but the first year of the console's lifetime.

  Phry

Elite Member

Joined: 7/01/04
Posts: 5524

2/01/13 12:58:02 PM#32
Originally posted by Quizzical
Originally posted by MindTrigger
Originally posted by JayFiveAlive
Originally posted by MindTrigger

The only way consoles are going to intrigue me if they make the hardware upgradable, or they make the devices much cheaper, with a 2 year life span.  And even then I want the hardware to be over the top powerful, so the console is super powerful during its life.

Point is, I look at the 360 on our awesome Samsung TV, and it just looks like ass.  Has for years.  This is no longer acceptable.

If consoles turn into PCs, then it's the death of consoles... sounds like you want a PC, not a next-gen console. It's not going to happen.

Wrong.  What I don't want is a console that basically already has, at best, mediocre graphics capability at launch, and then ages horribly over the course of eight or so years of its life.  Seeing my daughter use the 360 on our incredible Samsung TV makes me throw up in my mouth a little.  Especially in contrast to my gaming PC.

Also, computer hardware costs nothing compared to what it cost eight years ago.  If they are selling these new consoles for $500-600+ at launch, I'll piss myself laughing at the idiots who buy them.

 

I think that much of the point of going with Jaguar cores and integrated graphics is precisely to make consoles much cheaper to build--and thus, so that you can sell them much more cheaply.

It's possible that the consoles could be expensive at first if they're trying to use a silicon interposer or DDR4 memory or a 20 nm process node before they're ready, or if the first generation has an enormous die size or MCM before subsequent generations clean it up into a smaller SoC.  But it's better to make a console that you have to charge $500 for at first and then can break even at $300 a year later than to trail badly in performance with only a minor cost advantage for all but the first year of the console's lifetime.

Getting the right price point is pretty important, take NA, around 25m xbox's and 15m ps3's, can't help but wonder if the reason there is significantly more of one than the other was due to the price of the console itself, which, last i heard, Sony was still making a loss on the ps3's but MS had actually managed to turn a profit on them.

It wouldnt really surprise me if the next generation of consoles ends up being significantly cheaper than the previous ones.

  Quizzical

Guide

Joined: 12/11/08
Posts: 13789

 
OP  2/01/13 1:03:55 PM#33
Originally posted by Phry
Originally posted by Quizzical

I think that much of the point of going with Jaguar cores and integrated graphics is precisely to make consoles much cheaper to build--and thus, so that you can sell them much more cheaply.

It's possible that the consoles could be expensive at first if they're trying to use a silicon interposer or DDR4 memory or a 20 nm process node before they're ready, or if the first generation has an enormous die size or MCM before subsequent generations clean it up into a smaller SoC.  But it's better to make a console that you have to charge $500 for at first and then can break even at $300 a year later than to trail badly in performance with only a minor cost advantage for all but the first year of the console's lifetime.

Getting the right price point is pretty important, take NA, around 25m xbox's and 15m ps3's, can't help but wonder if the reason there is significantly more of one than the other was due to the price of the console itself, which, last i heard, Sony was still making a loss on the ps3's but MS had actually managed to turn a profit on them.

It wouldnt really surprise me if the next generation of consoles ends up being significantly cheaper than the previous ones.

Rumors say that AMD was a lot more cooperative with Microsoft about doing die shrinks than Nvidia was with Sony.  In other words, that AMD was a lot more cooperative about helping them bring down the cost of production in subsequent years.  And that that's a big reason why none of the console makers want to deal with Nvidia this round.  Jaguar cores aren't that powerful, so Nvidia could have offered similar performance from integrated graphics by adding ARM Cortex A15 cores.

  Phry

Elite Member

Joined: 7/01/04
Posts: 5524

2/01/13 1:05:20 PM#34
The answers to my question about the 'power gap' between consoles and PC's was surprising, i may not have completely understood the reasoning used, but it does sound like quite a few of you do. Consoles seem to be a case of different rules apply i guess. But i do appreciate the detail in the answers, even if it did point out how little i know about multithreading etc
  MindTrigger

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/19/07
Posts: 2628

2/01/13 1:10:59 PM#35
Originally posted by Quizzical
Originally posted by MindTrigger
Originally posted by JayFiveAlive
Originally posted by MindTrigger

The only way consoles are going to intrigue me if they make the hardware upgradable, or they make the devices much cheaper, with a 2 year life span.  And even then I want the hardware to be over the top powerful, so the console is super powerful during its life.

Point is, I look at the 360 on our awesome Samsung TV, and it just looks like ass.  Has for years.  This is no longer acceptable.

If consoles turn into PCs, then it's the death of consoles... sounds like you want a PC, not a next-gen console. It's not going to happen.

Wrong.  What I don't want is a console that basically already has, at best, mediocre graphics capability at launch, and then ages horribly over the course of eight or so years of its life.  Seeing my daughter use the 360 on our incredible Samsung TV makes me throw up in my mouth a little.  Especially in contrast to my gaming PC.

Also, computer hardware costs nothing compared to what it cost eight years ago.  If they are selling these new consoles for $500-600+ at launch, I'll piss myself laughing at the idiots who buy them.

 

I think that much of the point of going with Jaguar cores and integrated graphics is precisely to make consoles much cheaper to build--and thus, so that you can sell them much more cheaply.

It's possible that the consoles could be expensive at first if they're trying to use a silicon interposer or DDR4 memory or a 20 nm process node before they're ready, or if the first generation has an enormous die size or MCM before subsequent generations clean it up into a smaller SoC.  But it's better to make a console that you have to charge $500 for at first and then can break even at $300 a year later than to trail badly in performance with only a minor cost advantage for all but the first year of the console's lifetime.

The more important matter for me is how poorly these consoles age.  I suppose if all you ever play is a console, you wouldn't know any better, but since I play PC games too, I know just how aweful the conosole looks.

There are other offerings coming down the line too, such as Valve's Steam Box project, cloud gaming (nVidia Grid), and Apple is supposedly working on livingroom gaming options.  Things are going to become more interesting in this space soon.

A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.

  JayFiveAlive

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/04/09
Posts: 488

2/01/13 1:51:32 PM#36

As soon as consoles introduce upgradable componets, you run into many many more issues for programers, drivers, etc. Consoles are great for programmers because they don't change - you dont' have to worry about compatiblity with different hardware, etc. If a company made a console with upgradable compoents, the second you offer a new GPU for example, it becomes a mess from a developer and consumer standpoint.

Will my game work with this version? Do I need a specific upgrade to have this work? Do people with GPU have more advatange online, etc. etc. Then programmers have to code and test0- will the game have any bugs with this GPU? what about this one? What do we need to code to have them work with this, etc. etc.

  Quizzical

Guide

Joined: 12/11/08
Posts: 13789

 
OP  2/01/13 2:12:17 PM#37
Originally posted by MindTrigger
Originally posted by Quizzical
Originally posted by MindTrigger
Originally posted by JayFiveAlive
Originally posted by MindTrigger

The only way consoles are going to intrigue me if they make the hardware upgradable, or they make the devices much cheaper, with a 2 year life span.  And even then I want the hardware to be over the top powerful, so the console is super powerful during its life.

Point is, I look at the 360 on our awesome Samsung TV, and it just looks like ass.  Has for years.  This is no longer acceptable.

If consoles turn into PCs, then it's the death of consoles... sounds like you want a PC, not a next-gen console. It's not going to happen.

Wrong.  What I don't want is a console that basically already has, at best, mediocre graphics capability at launch, and then ages horribly over the course of eight or so years of its life.  Seeing my daughter use the 360 on our incredible Samsung TV makes me throw up in my mouth a little.  Especially in contrast to my gaming PC.

Also, computer hardware costs nothing compared to what it cost eight years ago.  If they are selling these new consoles for $500-600+ at launch, I'll piss myself laughing at the idiots who buy them.

 

I think that much of the point of going with Jaguar cores and integrated graphics is precisely to make consoles much cheaper to build--and thus, so that you can sell them much more cheaply.

It's possible that the consoles could be expensive at first if they're trying to use a silicon interposer or DDR4 memory or a 20 nm process node before they're ready, or if the first generation has an enormous die size or MCM before subsequent generations clean it up into a smaller SoC.  But it's better to make a console that you have to charge $500 for at first and then can break even at $300 a year later than to trail badly in performance with only a minor cost advantage for all but the first year of the console's lifetime.

The more important matter for me is how poorly these consoles age.  I suppose if all you ever play is a console, you wouldn't know any better, but since I play PC games too, I know just how aweful the conosole looks.

There are other offerings coming down the line too, such as Valve's Steam Box project, cloud gaming (nVidia Grid), and Apple is supposedly working on livingroom gaming options.  Things are going to become more interesting in this space soon.

Cloud gaming doesn't have much hope of being competitive with the next generation consoles before they're replaced.

Moving to DirectX 11/OpenGL 4 class hardware is a big jump in graphics API capabilities as compared to the previous generation consoles.  But what's really missing from the latest graphics APIs?  Better transparency options, certainly.  Anything else that doesn't constitute minor tinkering around the edges?  Maybe if you happen to believe that ray-tracing or voxels or something else is the future rather than rasterization.  Quadratic surfaces are handled very well by tessellation, though, and it's not clear what new API options that we don't already have would help voxels all that much.  Ray-tracing would take a major overhaul of how everything is done, though.

2 Pages « 1 2 Search