Trending Games | Hearthstone | Rift | Guild Wars 2 | Firefall

  Network:  FPSguru RTSguru
Login:  Password:   Remember?  
Show Quick Gamelist Jump to Random Game
Members:2,852,301 Users Online:0
Games:733  Posts:6,226,797
Recent forum postsRSS
Active threads
Cloud view
List all forums
General Forums
Developers Corner General Discussion
Popular Game Forums
Click a status to find game forum
Game Forums
Click a letter to find game forum
A-C
2029 Online 2112: Revolution 2Moons 4Story 8BitMMO 9 Dragons A Mystical Land A Tale in the Desert III A3 ACE Online ARGO Online Aberoth Absolute Force Online Absolute Terror Achaea Adellion Aerrevan Aetolia, the Midnight Age Age of Armor Age of Conan Age of Empires Online Age of Mourning Age of Wulin Age of Wushu Aida Arenas Aika Aion Albion Online Alganon All Points Bulletin (APB) Allods Online Altis Gates Amazing World Anarchy Online Ancients of Fasaria Andromeda 5 Angels Online Anime Trumps Anmynor Anno Online Applo Arcane Hearts Arcane Legends ArchLord ArcheAge Archeblade Archlord X Asda 2 Asda Story Ashen Empires Asheron's Call Asheron's Call 2 Astera Online Astonia III Astro Empires Astro Lords: Oort CLoud Asura Force Atlantica Online Atriarch Aura Kingdom Aurora Blade Auto Assault Avatar Star Battle Dawn Battle Dawn Galaxies Battle for Graxia Battle of 3 Kingdoms Battle of the Immortals Battlecruiser Online Battlestar Galactica Online Battlestar Reloaded Beyond Protocol Black Aftermath Black Desert Black Gold Black Prophecy Black Prophecy Tactics: Nexus Conflict Blacklight Retribution Blade & Soul Blade Hunter Blade Wars Blazing Throne Bless Blitz 1941 Blood and Jade Bloodlines Champions Bounty Bay Online Brain Storm Brawl Busters. Brick-Force Bright Shadow Bullet Run Business Tycoon Online CTRacer Cabal Online Caesary Call of Camelot Call of Gods Call of Thrones Camelot Unchained Canaan Online Cardmon Hero Cartoon Universe CasinoRPG Castle Empire Castlot Celtic Heroes Champions Online Champions of Regnum Chaos Online Chrono Tales Citadel of Sorcery CitiesXL Citizen Zero City of Decay City of Heroes City of Steam City of Transformers City of Villains Civilization Online Clan Lord Clash of Clans Cloud Nine Club Penguin Colony of War Command & Conquer: Tiberium Alliances Company of Heroes Online Conquer Online Conquer Online 3 Continent of the Ninth (C9) Core Blaze Core Exiles Corum Online Craft of Gods Crimecraft Crimelife 2 Cronous Crota II Crusaders of Solaris Cultures Online Cyber Monster 2 Céiron Wars
D-F
D&D Online DC Universe DK Online DOTA DOTA 2 DUST 514 DV8: Exile Dalethaan Dance Groove Online Dark Age of Camelot Dark Ages Dark Legends Dark Orbit Dark Relic: Prelude Dark Solstice Dark and Light DarkEden Online DarkSpace Darkblood Online Darkest Dungeon Darkfall Darkfall: Unholy Wars Darkwind: War on Wheels Das Tal Dawn of Fantasy Dawntide DayZ Dead Earth Dead Frontier Deco Online Deepworld Defiance Deicide Online Dekaron Demons at the Horizon Desert Operations Destiny Diablo 3 Diamonin Digimon Battle Dino Storm Disciple Divergence Divina Divine Souls Dofus Dominus Online Dragon Ball Online Dragon Born Online Dragon Crusade Dragon Empires Dragon Eternity Dragon Nest Dragon Oath Dragon Pals Dragon Raja Dragon's Call Dragon's Call II Dragon's Prophet DragonSky DragonSoul Dragona Dragonica Dragons and Titans Dream of Mirror Online Dreamland Online Dreamlords: The Reawakening Drift City Duels Dungeon Blitz Dungeon Fighter Online Dungeon Overlord Dungeon Party Dungeon Rampage Dungeon Runners Dynastica Dynasty Warriors Online Dynasty of the Magi EIN (Epicus Incognitus) EVE Online Earth Eternal Earth and Beyond Earthrise Eclipse War Ecol Tactics Online Eden Eternal Edge of Space Einherjar - The Viking's Blood Elder Scrolls Online Eldevin Elf Online Elite: Dangerous Embers of Caerus Emil Chronicle Online Empire Empire & State Empire Craft Empire Universe 3 EmpireQuest Empires of Galldon End of Nations Endless Ages Endless Blue Moon Online Endless Online Entropia Universe EpicDuel Erebus: Travia Reborn Eredan Eternal Blade Eternal Lands Eternal Saga Ether Fields Ether Saga Online Eudemons Online EuroGangster EverEmber Online EverQuest Next EverQuest Online Adventures Evernight Everquest Everquest II Evony Exarch Exorace F.E.A.R. Online Face of Mankind Fairyland Online Fall of Rome Fallen Earth Fallen Sword Fallout Online Family Guy Online Fantage Fantasy Earth Zero Fantasy Realm Online Fantasy Tales Online Fantasy Worlds: Rhynn Faunasphere Faxion Online Ferentus Ferion Fiesta Online Final Fantasy XI Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn Firefall Fists of Fu Florensia Flyff Football Manager Live Football Superstars Force of Arms Forge Forsaken World Fortnite Fortuna Forum for Discussion of Everlight Freaky Creatures Free Realms Freesky Online Freeworld Fung Wan Online Furcadia Fury Fusion Fall
G-L
GalaXseeds Galactic Command Online Game of Thrones: Seven Kingdoms Gameglobe Gate To Heavens Gates of Andaron Gatheryn Gauntlet Gekkeiju Online Ghost Online Ghost Recon Online Gladiatus Glitch Global Agenda Global Soccer Gloria Victis Glory of Gods GoGoRacer Goal Line Blitz Gods and Heroes GodsWar Online Golemizer Golf Star GoonZu Online Graal Kingdoms Granado Espada Online Grand Chase Grand Fantasia Grepolis Grimlands Guild Wars Guild Wars 2 Guild Wars Factions Guild Wars Nightfall H1Z1 Habbo Hotel Hailan Rising HaloSphere2 Haven & Hearth Hawken Hearthstone: Heroes of Warcraft Helbreath Hellgate Hellgate: London Hello Kitty Online Hero Online Hero Zero Hero's Journey Hero: 108 Online HeroSmash Heroes & Generals Heroes in the Sky Heroes of Bestia Heroes of Gaia Heroes of Might and Magic Online Heroes of Thessalonica Heroes of Three Kingdoms Heroes of the Storm Hex Holic Online Hostile Space Hunter Blade Huxley Illutia Illyriad Immortals USA Imperator Imperian Inferno Legend Infestation: Survivor Stories Infinite Crisis Infinity Infinity Iris Online Iron Grip: Marauders Irth Worlds Island Forge Islands of War Istaria: Chronicles of the Gifted Jade Dynasty Jagged Alliance Online Juggernaut Jumpgate Jumpgate Evolution KAL Online Kakele Online Kaos War Karos Online Kartuga Kicks Online King of Kings 3 Kingdom Heroes Kingdom Under Fire II Kingdom of Drakkar Kingory Kings and Legends Kings of the Realm KingsRoad Kitsu Saga Kiwarriors Knight Age Knight Online Knights of Dream City Kothuria Kung Foo! Kunlun Online L.A.W. LEGO Universe La Tale Land of Chaos Online Landmark Lands of Hope: Phoenix Edition LastChaos League of Angels League of Legends - Clash of Fates Legend of Edda: Vengeance Legend of Golden Plume Legend of Katha Legend of Mir 2 Legend of Mir 3 Legendary Champions Lego Minifigures Online Life is Feudal Light of Nova Lime Odyssey Line of Defense Lineage Lineage Eternal: Twilight Resistance Lineage II Linkrealms Loong Online Lord of the Rings Online Lords Online Lost Saga Lucent Heart Lunia Lusternia: Age of Ascension Luvinia World
M-Q
MU Online Mabinogi Maestia: Rise of Keledus MagiKnights Magic Barrage Magic World Online Manga Fighter MapleStory Martial Heroes Marvel Heroes Marvel Super Hero Squad Online Marvel: Avengers Alliance MechWarrior Online Megaten Meridian 59 : Evolution Merlin MetalMercs Metaplace Metin 2 MicroVolts Midkemia Online Might & Magic Heroes: Kingdoms MilMo Minecraft Mini Fighter Minions of Mirth Ministry of War Monato Esprit Monkey King Online Monkey Quest Monster & Me Monster Madness Online MonsterMMORPG Moonlight Online: Tales of Eternal Blood Mordavia Mortal Online Mourning My Lands Myst Online: URU Live Myth Angels Online Myth War Myth War 2 Mytheon Mythic Saga Mythos N.E.O Online NIDA Online Nadirim Naviage: The Power of Capital Navy Field Need for Speed World Nemexia Neo's Land NeoSteam Neocron Nether Neverwinter Nexus: The Kingdom Of The Winds NinjaTrick NosTale Novus Aeterno Oberin Odin Quest Odyssey RPG Ogre Island Omerta 3 Online Boxing Manager Onverse Order & Chaos Online Order of Magic Original Blood Origins Return Origins of Malu Orion's Belt Otherland Forums OverSoul Overkings Oz Online Oz World Pandora Saga Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen Panzar Parabellum Parallel Kingdom Parfait Station Path of Exile Pathfinder Online Perfect World Perpetuum Online Phantasy Star Online 2 Phantasy Star Universe Phoenix Dynasty Online Phylon Pi Story Picaroon Pirate Galaxy Pirate Storm Pirate101 PirateKing Online Pirates of the Burning Sea Pirates of the Caribbean Online Pixie Hollow Planeshift Planet Arkadia Planet Calypso PlanetSide 2 Planetside Planets³ Playboy Manager Pocket Legends Pockie Ninja Pockie Pirates Pockie Saints PoxNora Prime World Prime: Battle for Dominus Priston Tale Priston Tale II Prius Online Project Blackout Project Powder Project Titan Forums Project Wiki Puzzle Pirates Quickhit Football
R-S
R2 Online RAN Online RF Online ROSE Online Rage of 3 Kingdoms Ragnarok Online Ragnarok Online II RaiderZ Rakion Rappelz RappelzSEA Ravenmarch Realm Fighter Realm of the Mad God Realm of the Titans Realms Online Reclamation Red Stone Red War: Edem's Curse Regnum Online Remnant Knights Renaissance Repulse Requiem: Memento Mori Rift RiotZone Rise Rise of Dragonian Era Rise of Empire Rise of the Tycoon Rising of King Risk Your Life Rivality Rockfree Rohan: Blood Feud Role Play Worlds Roll n Rock Roma Victor Romadoria Rosh Online Roto X Rubies of Eventide Ruin Online Rumble Fighter Runes of Magic Runescape Rust Rusty Hearts Ryzom S4 League SAGA SD Gundam Capsule Fighter Online SMITE SUN Sagramore Salem SaySayGirls Scarlet Blade Scions of Fate Seal Online: Evolution Second Life Secret of the Solstice Seed Serenia Fantasy Seven Seas Saga Seven Souls Online Sevencore Shadow of Legend Shadowbane Shadowrun Online Shaiya Shards Online Shattered Galaxy Sho Online Shot Online Shroud of the Avatar SideQuest Siege on Stars Sigonyth: Desert Eternity Silkroad Online Skyblade Skyforge SmashMuck Champions Smoo Online Soldier Front Soul Master Soul Order Online Soul of Guardian Space Heroes Universe Sparta: War of Empires Spellcasters Sphere Spiral Knights Spirit Tales Splash Fighters Squad Wars Star Citizen Star Sonata 2 Star Stable Star Supremacy Star Trek Online Star Trek: Infinite Space Star Wars Galaxies Star Wars: Clone Wars Adventures Star Wars: The Old Republic StarQuest Online Stargate Worlds Starlight Story Starpires State of Decay SteelWar Online Stone Age 2 Stormfall: Age of War Storybricks Stronghold Kingdoms Sudden Attack Supremacy 1914 Supreme Destiny Sword Girls Sword of Destiny: Rise of Aions SwordX Swords of Heavens Swordsman
T-Z
TERA TS Online Tabula Rasa Tactica Online Tales Runner Tales of Fantasy Tales of Pirates Tales of Pirates II Tales of Solaris Talisman Online Tamer Saga Tank Ace Tantra Online Tatsumaki: Land at War Terra Militaris TerraWorld Online Thang Online The 4th Coming The Agency The Aurora World The Black Watchmen The Chronicle The Chronicles of Spellborn The Crew The Division The Hammers End The Legend of Ares The Lost Titans The Matrix Online The Mighty Quest for Epic Loot The Missing Ink The Mummy Online The Myth of Soma The Pride of Taern The Realm Online The Repopulation The Secret World The Sims Online The Strategems The West Theralon There Therian Saga Thrones of Chaos Tibia Tibia Micro Edition Tiger Knight Titan Siege Titans of Time Toontown Online Top Speed Topia Online Torchlight Total Domination Transformers Universe Traveller AR Travia Online Travian Trials of Ascension Tribal Hero Tribal Wars Tribes Universe Trickster Online Trove Troy Online True Fantasy Live Online Turf Battles Twelve Sky Twelve Sky 2 Twilight War Tynon U.B. Funkeys UFO Online URDEAD Online Ultima Forever: Quest for the Avatar Ultima Online Ultima X: Odyssey Ultimate Naruto Ultimate Soccer Boss Uncharted Waters Online Undercover 2: Merc Wars Underlight Unification Wars Universe Online Utopia Valkyrie Sky Vampire Lord Online Vanguard: Saga of Heroes Vanquish Space Vector City Racers Vendetta Online Victory - Age of Racing Vindictus Virtonomics Vis Gladius Visions of Zosimos VoidExpanse Voyage Century Online W.E.L.L. Online WAR (Warhammer Online) WAR2 Glory WYD Global Wakfu War Thunder War of 2012 War of Angels War of Legends War of Mercenaries War of Thrones War of the Immortals WarFlow Waren Story Wargame1942 Warhammer 40,000: Eternal Crusade Warhammer 40K: Dark Millennium Online Warhammer Online: Wrath of Heroes Warkeepers Warrior Epic Wartune WebLords Wild West Online WildStar Wind of Luck WindSlayer 2 Wings of Destiny Wish Wizard101 Wizardry Online Wizards and Champions Wonder King Wonderland Online World Golf Tour World of Battles World of Darkness World of Heroes World of Kung Fu World of Pirates World of Speed World of Tanks World of Tanks Generals World of Warcraft World of Warplanes World of Warships World of the Living Dead WorldAlpha Wurm Online Xenocell Xiah Xsyon Xulu YS Online Yitien ZU Online Zentia Zero Online Zero Online: The Andromeda Crisis Zodiac Online Zombies Ate My Pizza eRepublik

MMORPG.com Discussion Forums

Star Wars: The Old Republic

Star Wars: The Old Republic 

General Discussion  » Uhh, Hero Engine?

7 Pages « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 » Search
121 posts found
  SpottyGekko

Elite Member

Joined: 9/26/04
Posts: 2890

2/16/13 3:36:22 AM#61

Don't confuse the Hero Engine that's currently produced and marketed by Idea Fabrik with the version of the Hero Engine used in SW:TOR. They are not the same animal.

 

The developers of the Hero engine are game engine developers only. They have been dedicated to developing, expanding and improving their product since they sold a beta version of the engine source code to EA/BW in 2005.

 

There's a very good reason why there are specialist companies that focus on developing game engines. It's not a trivial effort, and requires a level of technical expertise that's probably overkill when you're building a game. And the constantly changing hardware landscape and new DX-spec releases means that the engine development can never stop, otherwise it becomes outdated. There's always room for performance improvement, new features, etc.

 

We have no idea what BW did with the beta version engine source code they bought originally. But I'd imagine that it's highly unlikely that BW created a substantial "game engine division" to continue developing, expanding and improving the incomplete Hero source code that they bought back in 2005.

They most likely filled in the missing parts that were relevant to their needs and tweaked some others. Then the devs that were tasked with those engine changes were most likely re-absorbed into the game implementation team. Their focus would have primarily switched from "building the functionality" to "using the functionality". BW is a game builder after all, not an engine builder.

  Gdemami

Elite Member

Joined: 9/23/08
Posts: 6926

2/16/13 4:06:59 AM#62


Originally posted by SpottyGekko

BW is a game builder after all, not an engine builder.


Oh dear...

How do you make a game without a set of code you one calls an engine? :)

Infinity, Aurora, Oddyssey, Eclipse - all BW proprietary game engines developed to make their own games.

  tiefighter25

Novice Member

Joined: 7/30/12
Posts: 949

2/16/13 4:52:30 AM#63
Originally posted by Gdemami

 


Originally posted by tiefighter25

You're splitting hairs.

 

No, I am not. You are just oversimplifying a matter you have no expertize in, resulting in erroneous judgement.

Oh i see.

So, you are the arbiter of who's opinions are valid.

You know all the inner workings of Bioware.

You know exactly what was involved with their use of the Aplpha-Hero engine.

We are all just poopy-heads.

To show your credentials, you even brought up an engine Bioware created, and modded for several generations and then abandoned.

So tell us all knowing one, instead of just saying everyone is a jack-ass, what is the story behind Bioware's use of the Alpha-Hero Engine?

  Gdemami

Elite Member

Joined: 9/23/08
Posts: 6926

2/16/13 5:00:17 AM#64


Originally posted by tiefighter25
Oh i see.

So, you are the arbiter of who's opinions are valid.

You know all the inner workings of Bioware.

You know exactly what was involved with their use of the Aplpha-Hero engine.

We are all just poopy-heads.

To show your credentials, you even brought up an engine Bioware created, and modded for several generations and then abandoned.

So tell us all knowing one, instead of just saying everyone is a jack-ass, what is the story behind Bioware's use of the Alpha-Hero Engine?


I never claimed I know BW inner workings or draw conclusions based on it.

I never claimed I know exactly what were the reasons to go with Hero engine, albeit pre-released product, or draw conclusions based on it.

The point is, YOU make such claims and draw conclusions despite having no clue of the matter and I am only pointing out this apparent facts out.


You are just looking for something you can trash on, and yes that makes you a poopy-head :-P

  tiefighter25

Novice Member

Joined: 7/30/12
Posts: 949

2/16/13 5:12:02 AM#65
Originally posted by Gdemami

 


Originally posted by tiefighter25
Oh i see.

 

So, you are the arbiter of who's opinions are valid.

You know all the inner workings of Bioware.

You know exactly what was involved with their use of the Aplpha-Hero engine.

We are all just poopy-heads.

To show your credentials, you even brought up an engine Bioware created, and modded for several generations and then abandoned.

So tell us all knowing one, instead of just saying everyone is a jack-ass, what is the story behind Bioware's use of the Alpha-Hero Engine?


 

I never claimed I know BW inner workings or draw conclusions based on it.

I never claimed I know exactly what were the reasons to go with Hero engine, albeit pre-released product, or draw conclusions based on it.

 

The point is, YOU make such claims and draw conclusions despite having no clue of the matter and I am only pointing out this apparent facts out.


You are just looking for something you can trash on, and yes that makes you a poopy-head :-P

OK Mr. Assumption.

Emoticon all you want. For lack of a better term, I'd say you're full of it.

Your postings that everyone is dumb and shouldn't be commenting can be abrasive.

I guess I'll pretend to enjoy htem, like some sort of exotic aquired taste.

  SpottyGekko

Elite Member

Joined: 9/26/04
Posts: 2890

2/16/13 5:17:05 AM#66
Originally posted by Gdemami

 

 

Oh dear...

How do you make a game without a set of code you one calls an engine? :)

 

Yes, that seems to be a very serious dilemma...

But there is a solution to that seemingly insurmountable problem: You license somebody else's engine !

 

Sure, BW have their own "battle-tested" engine code library, which they've been improving on since the late 90's, but that's for single-player games. 

They licensed Unreal 3 for the entire Mass Effect series, and are licensing DICE's engine for the next Mass Effect and Dragon Age installments. So they don't seem to be using their own engine code anymore, not even in their headline SPG's.

 

Why would that be, I wonder ? Is BW finding it too expensive to continue developing their own engine ?

  Gdemami

Elite Member

Joined: 9/23/08
Posts: 6926

2/16/13 5:38:19 AM#67


Originally posted by SpottyGekko

Why would that be, I wonder ?


There are several factors.

Market has changed and these days your options for engine licencing as well as engine capabilities are much broader.

Whether developing your own engine is more expensive or not depends on project. I would say that most benefit in licencing an engine is speeding up the development. Developing proprietary engine might take about 2-3 years and many things may change in that time. You may as well just find out that market has moved on and you are left out of the trend.

The other thing you also pointed out is that BW made so far single player games only. I do believe that it was one of the major reasons why BW licenced pre-released engine because they were mostly looking for this specific technology - network layer of the game, to fill their assets.


There are pros and cons for each path and you will never know how your decision pans out until you get "there".


Also:
Licencing an engine does solve anything. You still need some engine, being it developed inhouse or licenced.

  SpottyGekko

Elite Member

Joined: 9/26/04
Posts: 2890

2/16/13 6:29:15 AM#68
Originally posted by Gdemami

 

 

<snip>

The other thing you also pointed out is that BW made so far single player games only. I do believe that it was one of the major reasons why BW licenced pre-released engine because they were mostly looking for this specific technology - network layer of the game, to fill their assets.

 


There are pros and cons for each path and you will never know how your decision pans out until you get "there".


Also:
Licencing an engine does solve anything. You still need some engine, being it developed inhouse or licenced.

I've no doubt that one of the major reasons BW bought the beta code for Hero engine is because it saved them a huge chunk of development time. One can only shudder at the thought of how long it would have taken to develop SW:TOR if BW had to build the engine from scratch...

 

BW did not buy a "pre-released" engine as you say. The Hero engine wasn't commercially available when BW bought the code. Nobody had used it other than the developers themselves, and their MMO had not launched yet. It never did.

 

BW clearly intended to adapt the engine to their needs. That's why I said in my earlier post that the Hero engine used in SW:TOR is not comparable to the Hero engine that is currently available for licensing from Idea Fabrik. 

I see no mention anywhere of "continued co-operation" between the HeroEngine developers and the BW team. So I'm assuming that BW did not benefit from continued updates and improvements to the code since 2005. Once you start changing source code it becomes increasingly difficult to use the update patches from the original developer. What they are using is what they added or created in the 2005 version of HeroEngine.

 

So don't judge HeroEngine by what you see in SW:TOR.

 

 

  Phry

Elite Member

Joined: 7/01/04
Posts: 5229

2/16/13 6:31:45 AM#69
Originally posted by SpottyGekko

Don't confuse the Hero Engine that's currently produced and marketed by Idea Fabrik with the version of the Hero Engine used in SW:TOR. They are not the same animal.

 

The developers of the Hero engine are game engine developers only. They have been dedicated to developing, expanding and improving their product since they sold a beta version of the engine source code to EA/BW in 2005.

 

There's a very good reason why there are specialist companies that focus on developing game engines. It's not a trivial effort, and requires a level of technical expertise that's probably overkill when you're building a game. And the constantly changing hardware landscape and new DX-spec releases means that the engine development can never stop, otherwise it becomes outdated. There's always room for performance improvement, new features, etc.

 

We have no idea what BW did with the beta version engine source code they bought originally. But I'd imagine that it's highly unlikely that BW created a substantial "game engine division" to continue developing, expanding and improving the incomplete Hero source code that they bought back in 2005.

They most likely filled in the missing parts that were relevant to their needs and tweaked some others. Then the devs that were tasked with those engine changes were most likely re-absorbed into the game implementation team. Their focus would have primarily switched from "building the functionality" to "using the functionality". BW is a game builder after all, not an engine builder.

If you read Quizzicals rather long, but extremely informative post, it will help you understand why thats probably not the case, while its highly likely that Heroengine has been further optimised, its doubtful that it would have made any difference at all, if Bioware had used the present version of the Heroengine, rather than the version they did use.

Personally though i do recommend everyone read Quizzicals post, it takes time and i probably didnt understand it all completely, but it was more informative than most any other posts i've ever read

  Gdemami

Elite Member

Joined: 9/23/08
Posts: 6926

2/16/13 6:48:03 AM#70


Originally posted by SpottyGekko

BW did not buy a "pre-released" engine as you say. The Hero engine wasn't commercially available when BW bought the code.

SW that isn't commercially released is pre-release sw...

  SpottyGekko

Elite Member

Joined: 9/26/04
Posts: 2890

2/16/13 8:45:05 AM#71
Originally posted by Gdemami

 


Originally posted by SpottyGekko

BW did not buy a "pre-released" engine as you say. The Hero engine wasn't commercially available when BW bought the code.


 

SW that isn't commercially released is pre-release sw...

That makes it sound like they bought the code while it was still in testing (i.e. feature complete), whereas they bought the code before it was even finished.  

Quote: “There are whole sections of code that is only roughed in and not optimized for performance or security.  And there are very few comments and very little documentation.”

So it can be said that they bought a large part of the code base that later became the HeroEngine.

  kabitoshin

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/16/12
Posts: 702

2/16/13 8:49:01 AM#72
I think the engine looks great, except the skin animations look terrible.
  ignore_me

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/04/11
Posts: 2034

2/16/13 10:16:31 AM#73
Originally posted by Gdemami

 


Originally posted by ignore_me

 

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt on this (as I don't believe there is any one glaring problem like Engine Is Bad), but could you be more specific as to why you don't "play the engine." It may help some to understand.

 


 

Engine is a set of libraries you use for sw development. SWTOR is a product, engine is a tool used to create that product.


So unless you happen to work with said engine(tool), be adept in coding and/or SW development/architecture, you are not capable of any valid evaluation.


A tool and created software are 2 very different things.

Ok. So given that explanation, what is your best guess as to why the game cannot support a decent number of characters on screen at one time? Serious question.

Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011

  Gdemami

Elite Member

Joined: 9/23/08
Posts: 6926

2/16/13 12:01:11 PM#74


Originally posted by ignore_me

Ok. So given that explanation, what is your best guess as to why the game cannot support a decent number of characters on screen at one time? Serious question.

No idea. I am not working at BW :)

It can be just anything and it isn't easy to analyze and track down either.


ie. CCP fucked up game performance with one of their expansion and never really found the issue. It took them like 2 years to get the performance somewhat back on track but iirc, it is still no way near how the game was before the expansion.

  Quizzical

Guide

Joined: 12/11/08
Posts: 13319

2/16/13 12:47:40 PM#75
Originally posted by tiefighter25
Originally posted by Gdemami

 


Originally posted by ignore_me

 

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt on this (as I don't believe there is any one glaring problem like Engine Is Bad), but could you be more specific as to why you don't "play the engine." It may help some to understand.


 

Engine is a set of libraries you use for sw development. SWTOR is a product, engine is a tool used to create that product.


So unless you happen to work with said engine(tool), be adept in coding and/or SW development/architecture, you are not capable of any valid evaluation.


A tool and created software are 2 very different things.

You're splitting hairs. You are saying that the game engine is a only a developmnet tool to intergrate the various systems which allow the game to run. Well the game doesn't  run well. So if the game engine is honky-dory, that could only mean the developers were incompetent in their usage of the game engine.

Are you contending that the Alpha-Hero engine is great (despit Simtronics warnings) and Bioware just sucked at using it?

So basically, the question is whether to blame the EA employees who modified the game engine, or the EA employees who used what the previous group did to create the game.  Or both.  Does the distinction really matter?  It's like asking whether the reason a game is buggy is that the programmers are incompetent or that their management won't let them take the time to properly fix bugs.  Does the reason really matter?

  Quizzical

Guide

Joined: 12/11/08
Posts: 13319

2/16/13 12:50:31 PM#76
Originally posted by Matticus75

Business is not in the habit of making a profit, its in the habit of maximizing profit, it does this not by providing what consumers want, but merely what consumers respond to..... Thus we will see more of this repeated

You're far too pessimistic.  Does anyone in the industry see SWTOR as some great success that they want to emulate?  If you're trying to make a successful game, then hoping to make a mediocre clone of some other game that itself wasn't successful isn't a very bright way to go about it.

  Quizzical

Guide

Joined: 12/11/08
Posts: 13319

2/16/13 12:55:41 PM#77
Originally posted by SpottyGekko

There's a very good reason why there are specialist companies that focus on developing game engines. It's not a trivial effort, and requires a level of technical expertise that's probably overkill when you're building a game. And the constantly changing hardware landscape and new DX-spec releases means that the engine development can never stop, otherwise it becomes outdated. There's always room for performance improvement, new features, etc.

We have no idea what BW did with the beta version engine source code they bought originally. But I'd imagine that it's highly unlikely that BW created a substantial "game engine division" to continue developing, expanding and improving the incomplete Hero source code that they bought back in 2005.

Skills that are overkill if you just want to make a game can suddenly become absolutely essential if you want to make a good game.

We do know that EA heavily modified the game engine.  You pretty much have to do unless you're fine with your game being horribly unoptimized in addition to being either a generic clone or a buggy mess.  How did they internally choose who would optimize the game engine--or for that matter, which segments of code they would consider to be technically part of the game engine?  I don't know.  But I'd imagine that they didn't just pick people at random and end up with artists coding a game engine.

  Quizzical

Guide

Joined: 12/11/08
Posts: 13319

2/16/13 1:02:24 PM#78
Originally posted by SpottyGekko
Originally posted by Gdemami

Oh dear...

How do you make a game without a set of code you one calls an engine? :)

Yes, that seems to be a very serious dilemma...

But there is a solution to that seemingly insurmountable problem: You license somebody else's engine !

If you license a game engine without having the capability to modify it yourself as needed, then you're basically using the trial version of a game engine.  That's not likely to end well if you're trying to make an AAA game.  Actually, it's not terribly likely to end well if you're making a small-budget indie game, either.

If you license a game engine, get access to the full source code, and then heavily modify it to fit your game, then it's your own game engine, and not necessarily all that similar to the engine that you originally licensed.

As for changing game engines, that has to be done periodically.  If you have a 2D game engine designed to draw 2D sprites and then want to make a 3D game, it may be easier to scrap your game engine entirely and start over than to try to modify it.  (Actually, you probably come kind of close to doing that, but grab a bunch of selected small portions of the previous engine that do things that you still need.)  The move from a fixed function pipeline to programmable shaders brought a similar shift.  So did the move to doing more geometry computations on the GPU.  That last one, incidentally, seems to be a shift that a lot of companies are unwilling to make, as DirectX 9.0c dates to before that transition.

  Karteli

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/09/12
Posts: 2704

2/16/13 1:24:04 PM#79

The final result is all what customers see though Quizzical.  How EA filled in the missing parts is undefined.  But what can be observed is that EA filled "it" in, such that the game plays great when nobody is around (80 fps) on a mediocre machine.  Then worse (20 fps) when more than 16 players around.  Then abyssmal when 40 players around around (1-2 fps) .. crashing eventually if more show up.

 

The crash part might be to other coding horrors, who knows.  It happens though, eventually if a player stays in a populated area for long.  Time til crash is shorter if heavily populated (depends on total computer memory, in my observation - low memory = quick crash, huge memory = crash down the road).  Data gets muddled though when trying to evaluate this phenominum on the fleet, since sectioning was implemented to break the fleet into hundreds of instances.  So the fleet is populated heavily (max 200'ish) but separated in groups.  The memory leak is observable on planets, however.

 

On superior machines, those fps stats go up, but from what I've seen, not linearly.  A machine 100% better gives 30% more frames under load than a mediocre machine, 200% better gives 50% better than a mediocre machine.  I know this because I've played on my friends computer and they all have diminishing returns.  Even a 5 thousand top of the line balls-out computer still chokes when confronted with large player masses in SWTOR.  Lag, burps, pauses, gags, low frame rate (to my eyes, < 24 fps), you name it.

 

But it's not to say a really good computer couldn't make the game enjoyable .. because it can.  But it is unreasonable for EA to require players to buy top notch computers, defragment their game, install flash drives, remove all unnecessary process's, including virus scanners just to play the game.  Other games don't require molestation of systems just to get a game to run fine - other games run far better on even worse systems than being played by SWTOR.

 

Something that EA did causes these problems.  Demo's for Hero exist, they do not have SWTOR's problems ..

 

Regardless of how EA "filled in" what they needed from the original Hero Engine, regardless of the methods they used, regardless of their design plans .. the end result is significantly lackluster.  And not very worthy of the Star Wars brand label.

 

 

Want a nice understanding of life? Try Spirit Science: "The Human History"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8NNHmV3QPw&feature=plcp
Recognize the voice? Yep sounds like Penny Arcade's Extra Credits.

  SpottyGekko

Elite Member

Joined: 9/26/04
Posts: 2890

2/16/13 1:36:20 PM#80
Originally posted by Quizzical
Originally posted by SpottyGekko

There's a very good reason why there are specialist companies that focus on developing game engines. It's not a trivial effort, and requires a level of technical expertise that's probably overkill when you're building a game. And the constantly changing hardware landscape and new DX-spec releases means that the engine development can never stop, otherwise it becomes outdated. There's always room for performance improvement, new features, etc.

We have no idea what BW did with the beta version engine source code they bought originally. But I'd imagine that it's highly unlikely that BW created a substantial "game engine division" to continue developing, expanding and improving the incomplete Hero source code that they bought back in 2005.

Skills that are overkill if you just want to make a game can suddenly become absolutely essential if you want to make a good game.

We do know that EA heavily modified the game engine.  You pretty much have to do unless you're fine with your game being horribly unoptimized in addition to being either a generic clone or a buggy mess.  How did they internally choose who would optimize the game engine--or for that matter, which segments of code they would consider to be technically part of the game engine?  I don't know.  But I'd imagine that they didn't just pick people at random and end up with artists coding a game engine.

Not even EA/BW could've gone that far wrong 

 

We know BW had extensive experience with developing code libraries (engines) for their single-player games. Good ones. Some of those engines were even used by other companies. So they had people that had the necessary skillsets to build engines for 2D and 3D SPG's.

 

They most likely dropped the (incomplete) source code that they had bought from Simutronics on those poor techies and said: "Here's the code for an 85% completed MMO game engine. You have 6 months to get to know it inside out. After that, we expect you to make it sing and dance. Oh btw, there's 140,000 lines of code and little to no documentation, but that shouldn't be a problem for you, correct ? You're all pro's at doing SPG engines, so how hard can this be ?..."

 

 

7 Pages « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 » Search