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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » The Problem is Responsibility with Anonymity

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135 posts found
  NorseGod

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/28/12
Posts: 574

1/27/13 4:02:29 PM#21
Originally posted by steamtank

If words over the internet hurt you... don't use it.

 

Everyone has to be so PC all the time its no wonder people freak out and act up on the internet. Anonymity isnt the issue. The issue is the real worlds ever tightening stranglehold on the list of things that are acceptable.

 

We over medicate our kids for acting like kids. We expect 13 year olds to act like 35 year olds online.  We suspend students who draw zombies and trees on fire. We suspend kids for facebook comments. We suspend kids who to school for 8 hours and come home to 4 hours of homework nightly and dont manage to get it all done. We suspend kids for not saying the pledge. We suspend kids for talking about hunting or the shooting range.

 

Then there is work

 

You get fired for any slight against anyone not of your race/gender/sexual orientation real or imagined. You have to be so overly sensitive to everyones feelings you can't even think about work anymore.  Equal rights in the work place now means pander to every person not in the majority or risk lawsuit. Companies fire you for what you say on your own time on social media sites.

 

Any time you have to put real information on the internet the powers that be can and do use it to make your life harder. We are observed non stop from the second we leave the house to the second we get home to make sure we are politically correct in all things.

 

Why do people wonder that the internet is an escape mechanism to blow off steam. Sometimes blowing off steam is screaming pure vitrol.

 

People need SOMEWHERE that isnt a politically correct nursing center or they will eventually flip out.

That's the goal. They want to control everyone with fear and intimidation in order to force you to conform to their beliefs....or else.

You are aware of their intentions, so plan accordingly.

  MindTrigger

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/19/07
Posts: 2628

 
OP  1/27/13 4:08:26 PM#22
Originally posted by NorseGod
Originally posted by steamtank

If words over the internet hurt you... don't use it.

 

Everyone has to be so PC all the time its no wonder people freak out and act up on the internet. Anonymity isnt the issue. The issue is the real worlds ever tightening stranglehold on the list of things that are acceptable.

 

We over medicate our kids for acting like kids. We expect 13 year olds to act like 35 year olds online.  We suspend students who draw zombies and trees on fire. We suspend kids for facebook comments. We suspend kids who to school for 8 hours and come home to 4 hours of homework nightly and dont manage to get it all done. We suspend kids for not saying the pledge. We suspend kids for talking about hunting or the shooting range.

 

Then there is work

 

You get fired for any slight against anyone not of your race/gender/sexual orientation real or imagined. You have to be so overly sensitive to everyones feelings you can't even think about work anymore.  Equal rights in the work place now means pander to every person not in the majority or risk lawsuit. Companies fire you for what you say on your own time on social media sites.

 

Any time you have to put real information on the internet the powers that be can and do use it to make your life harder. We are observed non stop from the second we leave the house to the second we get home to make sure we are politically correct in all things.

 

Why do people wonder that the internet is an escape mechanism to blow off steam. Sometimes blowing off steam is screaming pure vitrol.

 

People need SOMEWHERE that isnt a politically correct nursing center or they will eventually flip out.

That's the goal. They want to control everyone with fear and intimidation in order to force you to conform to their beliefs....or else.

You are aware of their intentions, so plan accordingly.

Who is this "they" you are talking about, because I'm only referring to your own peer group, community, society, etc.  This is nothing new, and this is how humans have worked together for millions of years.  Do you believe the internet should be a free for all?  Please explain.

A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.

  Beatnik59

Elite Member

Joined: 11/23/05
Posts: 2225

"Playing things I shouldn''t be playing since 1977."

1/27/13 4:09:24 PM#23

If someone really hates you, it's best to know the extent of their hate.  Not only that, but I can't control who is or isn't going to be offended by anything, no matter how politely put it may be.

For example, I could say, "I think the government should do more to help the poor," and someone could think I'm the second coming of Stalin.  Likewise, someone could say, "I wish we could do more to protect the unborn," and someone could think that person is no better than the Taliban.

The way I see it, anonymity gives people the power to be honest.  It also protects people from reprisal.  Because it doesn't matter how politely I bring up an opinion.  If someone who hires or fires me doesn't like the opinion, I can suffer for speaking my mind, should my identity be known.

__________________________
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--Arcken

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--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.

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  jimdandy26

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/28/12
Posts: 559

1/27/13 4:15:05 PM#24
Originally posted by NorseGod

That's the goal. They want to control everyone with fear and intimidation in order to force you to conform to their beliefs....or else.

You are aware of their intentions, so plan accordingly.

You need to stop listening to Alex Jones. Seriously.

I did battle with ignorance today, and ignorance won.

To exercise power costs effort and demands courage. That is why so many fail to assert rights to which they are perfectly entitled - because a right is a kind of power but they are too lazy or too cowardly to exercise it. The virtues which cloak these faults are called patience and forbearance.

  MindTrigger

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/19/07
Posts: 2628

 
OP  1/27/13 4:21:03 PM#25
Originally posted by Beatnik59

If someone really hates you, it's best to know the extent of their hate.  Not only that, but I can't control who is or isn't going to be offended by anything, no matter how politely put it may be.

For example, I could say, "I think the government should do more to help the poor," and someone could think I'm the second coming of Stalin.  Likewise, someone could say, "I wish we could do more to protect the unborn," and someone could think that person is no better than the Taliban.

The way I see it, anonymity gives people the power to be honest.  It also protects people from reprisal.  Because it doesn't matter how politely I bring up an opinion.  If someone who hires or fires me doesn't like the opinion, I can suffer for speaking my mind, should my identity be known.

I like your post and agree with you to some extent.  Wouldn't you say that it's perfectly ok for communities, companies and organization to lay down standards for how people interact within the confines of that organization? In other words, do you believe Google, as a private entity, should be able to require you to use your real name on their services if they want?  Or do you subscribe to the free-for-all some of the above posters seem to believe is acceptable? That the whole internet should be anonymous.

I find this whole discussion fascinating because it is so subjective.  Everyone has this idea in their head about where they would draw the lines.  The trouble is, as communities and society in general, there must be room for consensus and enforcement.

Look at the Darkfall forums.  You can go there and talk as much trash as you want.  It's the culture of the game, and the people who play it have agreed that it is ok.  However, if you come to MMORPG.com and talk like they do, this is beyond the acceptable behavior.

A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.

  Phry

Elite Member

Joined: 7/01/04
Posts: 5229

1/27/13 4:22:28 PM#26

Its all tied up with freedom of speech, if you take away anonymity, despite trying to do it for the right reasons, the truth is that more harm is caused through good intentions than otherwise.

Look at what has happened with Facebook, hardly a day goes by without some tale of how a young girl, or boy or whatever, was driven to suicide by malicious intent from people they barely knew, personally i think mediums such as facebook are a blight, not because they take away anonymity, but because they totally bypass the safeguards that a family represents.

The trouble is that People with good intentions always have an agenda, be it political, religious or financial, the first is dubious, the second i just wish didnt exist and sadly the third is ever present particulary if you have an email account, thank goodness for spam filters

The problem with Anonymity, is that once you lose it, the wrong person will always get hold of the details/information whatever, and in a world where identity theft and cyber bullying etc, already is far too well represented.. why make it even easier for them to make others lives miserable.

  maplestone

Novice Member

Joined: 12/10/08
Posts: 3109

1/27/13 4:25:50 PM#27
Originally posted by MindTrigger

I never said your real name should be available to me or anyone else.

I'm having a very hard time reconcilling this statement with the title of this thread.

 

 

  NorseGod

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/28/12
Posts: 574

1/27/13 4:26:07 PM#28
Originally posted by MindTrigger
Originally posted by NorseGod

Being a jerk or saying hateful words isn't against the law. Your idea is to simply oppress those with opposite political and social beliefs with fear and intimidation.

And since it isn't against the law. What exactly is the intended goal here? Retaliation? How? With harrassment, violence, and or vandalism?

If you're right about any given issue, then should there be a need to use force on others with fear and intimidation? If what you were saying was truth and really good for the "collective", wouldn't everyone accept it with open arms without a need of force?

I, and many people like me, believe that every individual has a right to say or believe whatever they want. But, it's the moment that you impose those beliefs on others is where we will draw the line. Do you know what is going to happen when you continue to impose your beliefs on others? I have a pretty good idea, but do you?

 

What I'm talking about isn't law.  It's about community and what is acceptable to any given community or society. 

However, there's plenty of outright slander happening every day all over the internet, and sometimes on this very site.  There are laws against slander.

So which beliefs am I personally imposing on you?  Have I posted a single sentence here which states a solid beliefe I should be allowed to force down your throat?  If so, please quote it for me.  I'm talking about community and ettiquette here, and how some people feel they have a free pass to say and do whatever they want online with such a privilege.

Nah, you tell me what your intentions are in regards to knowing personal information about everyone on the internet. What you are asking for is very specific and I want to know what you hope to achieve with this information.

 

  MuffinStump

Novice Member

Joined: 8/06/03
Posts: 475

1/27/13 4:26:15 PM#29

It will be interesting to see the new ways in which a particular site will get posters/members/players to 'buy in' so that they might have something to lose in terms of reputation, standing or goals. If there is a social or time investment in an online persona then usually people will refrain from overt nonsense.

In games the population generally monitors itself (with some company moderation) and the social dynamic adjusts according to player 'actions'. Like minded individuals are free to form closed communities such as guilds and there are various chat channels. How do you provide a feeling of investment in a forum? There are post counts, post history and join dates but they only provide a reference of longevity.

I think it is less a notion of personal anonymity than a loss of connection or meaning to an online persona/avatar/profile. Should be an interesting conversion in the next few years.

  bishbosh2

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/13/12
Posts: 66

1/27/13 4:26:17 PM#30

nope not worth it

sacrificing freedom to prevent butthurts simply isnt worth it.

  vgamer

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/27/11
Posts: 150

1/27/13 4:29:31 PM#31

I think anonymity is only a small part of the problem. The bigger problem is the moral decline of the society. In my country, we have politicians who insult immigrants freely because he uses the excuse of freedom of speech. People in public are also rude and have this arrogant and entitled behaviour. It is all about 'ME' now and how society is setup encourages this toxic behaviour. This then seeps through our beloved MMo's.

 

 

  MindTrigger

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/19/07
Posts: 2628

 
OP  1/27/13 4:32:21 PM#32
Originally posted by Phry

Its all tied up with freedom of speech, if you take away anonymity, despite trying to do it for the right reasons, the truth is that more harm is caused through good intentions than otherwise.

Look at what has happened with Facebook, hardly a day goes by without some tale of how a young girl, or boy or whatever, was driven to suicide by malicious intent from people they barely knew, personally i think mediums such as facebook are a blight, not because they take away anonymity, but because they totally bypass the safeguards that a family represents.

The trouble is that People with good intentions always have an agenda, be it political, religious or financial, the first is dubious, the second i just wish didnt exist and sadly the third is ever present particulary if you have an email account, thank goodness for spam filters

The problem with Anonymity, is that once you lose it, the wrong person will always get hold of the details/information whatever, and in a world where identity theft and cyber bullying etc, already is far too well represented.. why make it even easier for them to make others lives miserable.

One thing we all need to get our heads around to start with is that not a single one of us is anonymous on the net.  Your screen names/activity online are attached to a dscoverable forensic trail of data which leads all the way back to your real indentity. At best, your identity is superfically obscured.  So as a shield for your free speech, the internet is not really very good anyway.

Your example of cyber bullying is an interesting case study too.  One has to wonder why it's ok for people to be attacked just because their identity is exposed in some way.  Shouldn't we be addressing the attackers, rather than trying to hide the potential victims behind a false sense of security?

A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.

  Drolkin

Novice Member

Joined: 12/07/05
Posts: 255

1/27/13 4:33:57 PM#33

Today I saw a guy shove another guy out of the way getting on the bus, dozens of people saw it, no one said anything, was this because no one knew the jerk's name?

 

Get a clue.

  MindTrigger

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/19/07
Posts: 2628

 
OP  1/27/13 4:36:33 PM#34
Originally posted by vgamer

I think anonymity is only a small part of the problem. The bigger problem is the moral decline of the society. In my country, we have politicians who insult immigrants freely because he uses the excuse of freedom of speech. People in public are also rude and have this arrogant and entitled behaviour. It is all about 'ME' now and how society is setup encourages this toxic behaviour. This then seeps through our beloved MMo's.

 

vgamer, you are getting exactly to my point here.  I think a growing number of people are using false-anonymity online to allow themselves to be disgusting to other people.  

Again, for anyone reading this... I PERSONALLY AM NOT PUTTING FORTH A SOLUTION, such as making you post your name online.  I am simply putting the problem up for dicussion of potential solutions. 

A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12149

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Project Gorgon, and Combat Arms

1/27/13 4:37:48 PM#35
I can't believe we got this far without this image rearing its head. :)

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fovoroth

  Kyleran

Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 19008

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

1/27/13 4:40:34 PM#36
You could take the approach of some organization creating "official" internet personas.

This group would not share your PI externally, but internally they would use it to ensure you are really "you" and a verified identity would be assigned, only one to a person of course.

Then other websites could choose to either only let people join with a verified identity, or perhaps grant varying levels of privileges to verified users.

Also, bad behavior on the part of a verified identity would go back to the central organization which would maintain a record of your behavior for all to access.

It could end up working very much like credit scores do today, without the actual PI being visible.

Of course, the real trick is to figure out how to fund it like the credit scoring agencies have done.

"In these forums 'honest' seems to be a symonym for 'hates the game just like I do'" - ohioastro
Kyleran - Bitter Vet ™ since 2006
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  MindTrigger

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/19/07
Posts: 2628

 
OP  1/27/13 4:43:17 PM#37
Originally posted by Loktofeit
I can't believe we got this far without this image rearing its head. :)

Hhaha!  That is funny, never seen it before.  But it is loosely what I am talking about.  I think a lot of decent people say really bad things online because they think they are anonymous.  Some great college papers could be written on this subject.

A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.

  Paradigm68

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/24/11
Posts: 879

1/27/13 4:44:01 PM#38
In the context of MMORPG's I believe the decline in civility is linked to the decline in having community be a focus of the game. If devs made games that promoted community and was something significant portions of the playerbase cared about it would change things a lot I think.
  KaylettaJade

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/28/06
Posts: 140

1/27/13 4:47:35 PM#39
Originally posted by maplestone
Originally posted by MindTrigger

I never said your real name should be available to me or anyone else.

I'm having a very hard time reconcilling this statement with the title of this thread.

What if, instead of your real name, you had to be maplestone, everywhere on the internet, forever. Everyone who knew you as maplestone in one place, would know you were the same person in a different place (be it Wow, Xbox Live, MMORPG.com forums, etc). While leaving your real identity out of the equation, you would be forced to own your statements from one community to the next, lessening your internet anonymity, but protecting your real privacy.

I do realize that we can't actually do that, but lessening anonymity by forcing people to own their actions, not allowing them to delete or have multiple accounts (I personally know people who have one account for regular discourse and another to flame with), will encourage better behavior by many. Too often people will say things when they can't be held accountable that they wouldn't dare say face to face.

The base truth is that the anonymity of the internet both protects free speech and provide an outlet for behavior that would otherwise be deemed unacceptable. Free speech is paramount, and I fully support it, but there are lines that should not be crossed (some that SCOTUS has said is not protected under the 1st), yet with full anonymity it is too easy to step over them because no one is able to hold you accountable. Good character is what is lacking from society today. A persons character is not determined by what they do in front of other people, but what they do when no one is looking. People have forgotten that.

  NorseGod

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/28/12
Posts: 574

1/27/13 4:50:22 PM#40
Originally posted by MindTrigger
Originally posted by NorseGod
Originally posted by steamtank

If words over the internet hurt you... don't use it.

 

Everyone has to be so PC all the time its no wonder people freak out and act up on the internet. Anonymity isnt the issue. The issue is the real worlds ever tightening stranglehold on the list of things that are acceptable.

 

We over medicate our kids for acting like kids. We expect 13 year olds to act like 35 year olds online.  We suspend students who draw zombies and trees on fire. We suspend kids for facebook comments. We suspend kids who to school for 8 hours and come home to 4 hours of homework nightly and dont manage to get it all done. We suspend kids for not saying the pledge. We suspend kids for talking about hunting or the shooting range.

 

Then there is work

 

You get fired for any slight against anyone not of your race/gender/sexual orientation real or imagined. You have to be so overly sensitive to everyones feelings you can't even think about work anymore.  Equal rights in the work place now means pander to every person not in the majority or risk lawsuit. Companies fire you for what you say on your own time on social media sites.

 

Any time you have to put real information on the internet the powers that be can and do use it to make your life harder. We are observed non stop from the second we leave the house to the second we get home to make sure we are politically correct in all things.

 

Why do people wonder that the internet is an escape mechanism to blow off steam. Sometimes blowing off steam is screaming pure vitrol.

 

People need SOMEWHERE that isnt a politically correct nursing center or they will eventually flip out.

That's the goal. They want to control everyone with fear and intimidation in order to force you to conform to their beliefs....or else.

You are aware of their intentions, so plan accordingly.

Who is this "they" you are talking about, because I'm only referring to your own peer group, community, society, etc.  This is nothing new, and this is how humans have worked together for millions of years.  Do you believe the internet should be a free for all?  Please explain.

"They" are the community that I don't belong to or care to. So yes, I know exactly what you were referring to. And I'm telling you that society is a collection of different communiies, make up of like-minded individuals.

Humans working together for millions of years is something new to me. You are simply wrong here.

Yes, the internet should be a free for all. Think of the internet as a society. Think of a website as a community. Think of a member as an individual. Don't go where you are not welcomed. Don't force your beliefs on others if you do. Stay among like-minded individuals.

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