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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » How long will MMOs hide P2W behind the veil of FTP?

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210 posts found
  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20652

1/25/13 3:44:08 PM#61
Originally posted by jimdandy26

The only game that takes that long to cap out that I am aware of is EvE, and no that would be very much p2w because there is no way in game of speeding up skill aquasition.

 

The "line" between whats p2w and not is "is this available in game". Nothing else. Even an xp booster (especially in a level based game) will allow someone to get there quicker, but by week 2, 3, everyone has normalized.

 

In theory, you can design the game where it takes a month, or a year (and not just weeks) to "normalize". Does that matter to you?

 

  VengeSunsoar

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4917

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

1/25/13 3:44:34 PM#62
Originally posted by jimdandy26
Originally posted by Nadia
Originally posted by jimdandy26

 listen to people who say that purely cosmetic items are p2w? Seriously?

taking that one step further with an example

 

paying for ingame mounts with real cash

-- its largely a cosmetic item but some people will debate its saving the player ingame cash from buying the mount, thus labeling the mount p2w

No, because cash is virtually never p2w. Its not something that you can't get in game as it is.

 

Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by jimdandy26

Depends on how you term advantage. There is a vast difference between putting bullets in the store that deal 10 more damage than anything that you can get in game and someone getting an xp booster. Everyone will cap out eventually. There is no way to make up for one person just flat doing more damage. One is convience, one is flat buying power.

And obviously each game has a different definition of what advantage means ... dependent on the combat mechanics.

But even with your example ... how about if it takes 10 years to cap out? So if someone pays, he gets to do more damage for 10 years ... surely it is only temporary ... but for a long long time. Does that count?

It is all grey. There is no black and white line. And it is up to the individual to judge if a certain thing being sold in cash shop is reasonable or not.

 

The only game that takes that long to cap out that I am aware of is EvE, and no that would be very much p2w because there is no way in game of speeding up skill aquasition.

 

The "line" between whats p2w and not is "is this available in game". Nothing else. Even an xp booster (especially in a level based game) will allow someone to get there quicker, but by week 2, 3, everyone has normalized.

 

In your opinion.  Nothing you stated is factual of course.

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  kadepsyson

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/15/06
Posts: 1967

The doctors say his chances are 50/50...but there's only a 10% chance of that.

1/25/13 3:45:34 PM#63
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by kadepsyson
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by Azoth
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

 Yes I do.  However there is huge disagreement on this site as to what constitutes p2w.  If there is a game that has a cs, there are people that are saying it's p2w.

Don't think you can disagree on anything there. F2P means free to play, you could add microtransaction that are or are not P2W (pay to win) . So in the end it's really simple, pay to win means paying to get an advantage over other players.

edited - The point was there was a f2p game before UO.  Furcadia is f2p.  It does have a cash shop and you can discuss whether the items are p2w or not however it is still f2p.

The biggest difference is that F2P is an actual category. It is a fact. P2W is a made up term and it differs from person to person. The reality of that second part would shatter way too many illusions for some though.

 

Tell me more about how Pay 2 Win is a made up term while Free to Play isn't a made up term :)

Free to PLay is an actual industry acknowledged payment model. P2W and B2W and terms that players have created to describe games but they are not actual categories. I'm sure you knew this, so I'm wondering why so much antagonism from you today. 

I don't mean to be antagonizing honestly.

I do want to point out that the MMORPG industry does acknowledge and post about P2W.  Path of Exile made by Grinding Gear Games has a clear stance against it, in fact.

I agree that P2W isn't something that can be easily a category - probably because it's very hard to get a solid agreed upon definition around here haha

El Psy Congroo

  Schoeneck93

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/24/11
Posts: 71

1/25/13 3:48:16 PM#64

Yes, damn these game companies whose devs spend THOUSANDS OF HOURS WORKING ON THESE GAMES and they want to get paid for it.

 

Who would've thought... I mean I understand disliking pay to win, I'd personally rather have a sub. But truly PTW is just their way of making money. Which is completely damned fair if you ask me, anyone who disagrees doesn't know shit about programming, designing, or anything of the likes. It takes HARD man hours. Tens of thousands of them. It's not easy. You think your in-game grind is hard, you don't know anything. 

And the fact is, if they don't have those things you pay for that give you an advantage, then people won't pay for it. Which is what they need, so they can continue to make their games, and continue to add content to their games, they need money. What is so wrong about that? 

 

The only way to fix this is to bring back paid subs. Which people will also complain about. 

 

So it comes down to this; lose people who don't want to pay for subs, or make it free so people who don't have money can play, thus increasing population and PR and media awareness of this game, drawing in even bigger crowds, eventually drawing in big money. 

Good for them. I hope they get all the money they need to pay their guys who work their asses off building these games. 

  Loktofeit

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12406

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ArcheAge, and Combat Arms

1/25/13 3:51:19 PM#65
Originally posted by kadepsyson

I agree that P2W isn't something that can be easily a category - probably because it's very hard to get a solid agreed upon definition around here haha

I completely agree that getting everyone on the same page for P2W would be a project and a half. It's right up there with 'gank' on the list of terms so vague that they become damn near useless for meaningful discussion. 

 

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  leojreimroc

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/07/09
Posts: 372

1/25/13 3:53:31 PM#66
f2p hardly changes anything.  Any player who spends the same money that they would pay for a sub in another game will be able to buy almost anything that they want in the cash shop.
  kadepsyson

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/15/06
Posts: 1967

The doctors say his chances are 50/50...but there's only a 10% chance of that.

1/25/13 3:54:15 PM#67
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by kadepsyson

I agree that P2W isn't something that can be easily a category - probably because it's very hard to get a solid agreed upon definition around here haha

I completely agree that getting everyone on the same page for P2W would be a project and a half. It's right up there with 'gank' on the list of terms so vague that they become damn near useless for meaningful discussion. 

 

Yeah.  Especially since a lot of times people know they are paying for an advantage - know it is pay to win, but refuse to say it.  They will say it isn't anything like that, and make all sorts of discussion on how it isn't.  They know it is one way, and claim another.  That would make the defining of the term harder as well.

Human nature :)

El Psy Congroo

  jimdandy26

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/28/12
Posts: 559

1/25/13 4:09:26 PM#68
Originally posted by nariusseldon

In theory, you can design the game where it takes a month, or a year (and not just weeks) to "normalize". Does that matter to you?

 

Of course you could, but no one has yet. Its extremely poor design to do so. It would have to be a completely closed system, which does not work. There is always a way for a person to make up the difference, and usually its not anywhere near insurmountable odds like many make it out to be.

 

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

In your opinion.  Nothing you stated is factual of course.

What?

I did battle with ignorance today, and ignorance won.

To exercise power costs effort and demands courage. That is why so many fail to assert rights to which they are perfectly entitled - because a right is a kind of power but they are too lazy or too cowardly to exercise it. The virtues which cloak these faults are called patience and forbearance.

  Arclan

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/29/07
Posts: 1443

"Ideas are worthless. The only currency that holds any weight is the ability and drive to execute."

 
OP  1/25/13 4:41:36 PM#69


Originally posted by Arclan
The result is you will be paying a lot more for less entertainment.

In other words, yes, I know games cost money to make. Right now P2W is a dirty word, but that is changing. BTW, Anything that (1) costs money and (2) advances character progression is, by definition, P2W.

I enjoyed reading everyone's input. Thanks.

Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
video game company layoffs are twice the national average.

  VengeSunsoar

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4917

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

1/25/13 4:57:57 PM#70
Originally posted by jimdandy26
Originally posted by nariusseldon

In theory, you can design the game where it takes a month, or a year (and not just weeks) to "normalize". Does that matter to you?

 

Of course you could, but no one has yet. Its extremely poor design to do so. It would have to be a completely closed system, which does not work. There is always a way for a person to make up the difference, and usually its not anywhere near insurmountable odds like many make it out to be.

 

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

In your opinion.  Nothing you stated is factual of course.

What?

You stated, "The "line" between whats p2w and not is "is this available in game".

This is strictly opinion.  Just as no one agrees on what pay two win items are, no one agrees on where the line is.  This is not fact, don't present it as such.

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  Quirhid

Elite Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5725

Correcting wrongs on the Internet...

1/25/13 5:02:32 PM#71
Originally posted by Arclan

 


Originally posted by Arclan
The result is you will be paying a lot more for less entertainment.

 

In other words, yes, I know games cost money to make. Right now P2W is a dirty word, but that is changing. BTW, Anything that (1) costs money and (2) advances character progression is, by definition, P2W.

I enjoyed reading everyone's input. Thanks.

No its not. If you can spend cash to buy an advantage, that is P2W - "buy to win". A lot of F2P games don't qualify.

Your definition is piss poor.

 

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  Loktofeit

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12406

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ArcheAge, and Combat Arms

1/25/13 5:28:13 PM#72
Originally posted by Arclan

 


Originally posted by Arclan
The result is you will be paying a lot more for less entertainment.

 

In other words, yes, I know games cost money to make. Right now P2W is a dirty word, but that is changing. BTW, Anything that (1) costs money and (2) advances character progression is, by definition, P2W.

I enjoyed reading everyone's input. Thanks.

You've perfectly described an expansion pack.

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  kadepsyson

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/15/06
Posts: 1967

The doctors say his chances are 50/50...but there's only a 10% chance of that.

1/25/13 5:30:14 PM#73
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Arclan

 


Originally posted by Arclan
The result is you will be paying a lot more for less entertainment.

 

In other words, yes, I know games cost money to make. Right now P2W is a dirty word, but that is changing. BTW, Anything that (1) costs money and (2) advances character progression is, by definition, P2W.

I enjoyed reading everyone's input. Thanks.

You've perfectly described an expansion pack.

Ha, that is awesome.  Good call on that!

El Psy Congroo

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20652

1/25/13 8:28:04 PM#74
Originally posted by kadepsyson
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Arclan

 


Originally posted by Arclan
The result is you will be paying a lot more for less entertainment.

 

In other words, yes, I know games cost money to make. Right now P2W is a dirty word, but that is changing. BTW, Anything that (1) costs money and (2) advances character progression is, by definition, P2W.

I enjoyed reading everyone's input. Thanks.

You've perfectly described an expansion pack.

Ha, that is awesome.  Good call on that!

ahah ... i am 100% for p2w now :)

  kadepsyson

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/15/06
Posts: 1967

The doctors say his chances are 50/50...but there's only a 10% chance of that.

1/25/13 8:30:25 PM#75
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by kadepsyson
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Arclan

 


Originally posted by Arclan
The result is you will be paying a lot more for less entertainment.

 

In other words, yes, I know games cost money to make. Right now P2W is a dirty word, but that is changing. BTW, Anything that (1) costs money and (2) advances character progression is, by definition, P2W.

I enjoyed reading everyone's input. Thanks.

You've perfectly described an expansion pack.

Ha, that is awesome.  Good call on that!

ahah ... i am 100% for p2w now :)

Ha, yeah.  Hey you know those free trials?  Where you have to buy (or PAY for) the full game to keep going?

PAY TO WIN!  at least according to Arclan.

El Psy Congroo

  SirFubar

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/21/11
Posts: 406

1/25/13 8:49:15 PM#76
IMO, the P2W model is gone for years now. Sure there's still some MMO that does it, but most of them have completely stop using this stupid model. When I started looking into F2P MMO  about 3-4 years ago, the F2P P2W model was all over the place. Now those games can be counted on 1 hand. For me, P2W is something you only need to worry about in PvP.
  Beatnik59

Elite Member

Joined: 11/23/05
Posts: 2262

"Playing things I shouldn''t be playing since 1977."

1/25/13 10:55:28 PM#77

In the early days, the MMORPG was "Geek Society," everyone could create the kind of character they wanted to play.

Then we had MMORPGs as "Geek Football," where everyone would play "positions" in a combat team (DPS, Tank, Crowd Control, Healer, etc.).

Today, the MMORPG is "Geek Nightclub," where everyone shows off how conspicuously they can consume by sporting the latest fashions from the item store.

__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken

"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.

"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE

  User Deleted
1/26/13 12:40:23 AM#78

Any F2P game that is P2W usually gets a nice bit of commotion and either the dev fixes the issue or the players leave.

So to address the OP... state your evidence of P2W and in which F2P game.

Otherwise, 'pics or it didn't happen.'

  sumfool

Novice Member

Joined: 3/11/09
Posts: 13

"you dirty rat"

1/26/13 9:08:05 AM#79

the pay to win model is stupid and so are people that accept it 

mortal online , dc universe , rose online , age of conan , allods , all examples of typical pay to win games .

 

  sumfool

Novice Member

Joined: 3/11/09
Posts: 13

"you dirty rat"

1/26/13 9:12:25 AM#80
Originally posted by Rider071

Any F2P game that is P2W usually gets a nice bit of commotion and either the dev fixes the issue or the players leave.

So to address the OP... state your evidence of P2W and in which F2P game.

Otherwise, 'pics or it didn't happen.'

pay to win = allods were a player can buy pure pvp power in cash shop .

not pay 2 win but definatly free to play = path of exile were cash shop only sells cosmetic items and cash CANNOT buy power.

seriously you needed someone to explain the difference to you? 

obviously yes or why did you ask .

pics or it didn't happen ? is that like if a tree falls in the forest and no one is around to hear it then it didn't happen or something?

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