Originally posted by Gishgeron

 

  Far less "easy mode" when I can come in and smash your house and wall and pour lava over everything you love and own.  Suddenly intricate redstone configurations because vital and player vigilance begins to matter.  Not that I want to attack you on your points, they are great and I've wanted to try wurm for awhile.  But I do want to reinforce the ideal that Minecraft hasn't made fools of anybody.  Its not an MMO for a reason.  It doesn't work as one.  Our genre is plagued by its own lifeblood, massive players online.  What you can and cannot do changes when that happens.  Things you do now drive a wedge between your players that a single player game, or limited multiplayer game, wouldn't drive there.

  I get the point the OP wants to make.  Give players systems and tools instead of rails and rules and you'll have a longer lifespan.  Mostly true.  But its easy to forget that this market didn't become themepark central for no reason.  The design core of these games is in conflict with itself, and there not a cure-all for it.

Great post, I agree. Especially the highlighted part.

Originally posted by tom_gore

Originally posted by Aeonblades
Minecraft makes enough of a fool out of itself, I wouldn't worry too much about MMO companies.

Yeah. That's why some 4 million people have bought it and Markus Persson is laughing his ass off looking at the fool of a game he created.

 

I didn't say it wasn't successful, just that it's a joke all in itself. I have devoted several hours to playing it, and I wasn't impressed personally. I know people that love it, real life friends even. But to me, the game is a joke, whether it made money or not. GW2 made money, but that doesn't make it a good game, same for a lot of other MMO's that have come out recently.

Minecraft is a game with rudimentary graphics which gives you every freedom as a hunter, gatherer, builder in it's world.

MMOs are games with bad to good graphics which restrict what you are allowed to hunt and gather and most of the time totally prohibit any building.

Unfortunately many MMO companies (and all AAAs) start with the graphics ("look what great gfx we have here") and totally neglect the other features. Just for shiny graphics. The depressing part is, it is our fault. First comment you see about each new game is "graphics suck/are great".

Would be interesting to see a MMO developer who starts with the features he wants to realize in his MMO and build his graphics on top of that. But no, it must be more shadows, more polygons, more textures and less freedom for the player. How boring is paradise if you can't do anything in it ?

Originally posted by Anthur

Minecraft is a game with rudimentary graphics which gives you every freedom as a hunter, gatherer, builder in it's world.

MMOs are games with bad to good graphics which restrict what you are allowed to hunt and gather and most of the time totally prohibit any building.

Unfortunately many MMO companies (and all AAAs) start with the graphics ("look what great gfx we have here") and totally neglect the other features. Just for shiny graphics. The depressing part is, it is our fault. First comment you see about each new game is "graphics suck/are great".

Would be interesting to see a MMO developer who starts with the features he wants to realize in his MMO and build his graphics on top of that. But no, it must be more shadows, more polygons, more textures and less freedom for the player. How boring is paradise if you can't do anything in it ?

In my experience, not saying for fact, but what I think the reason for graphics being a hot topic among MMO's is because MMO's generally lag 5ish years behind other games and graphics, and when you see a new shiny game you think "Wow! This looks almost as good as (Insert crappy FPS here)". So it becomes a hot topic immediately.

Originally posted by Istavaan
So what if 4 million people play it, whats the deal with humans clinging to this flock like mentality..the only answer you get is oh 9 million play it they can't be wrong. Yes 9 million people can be wrong, i know an organization were 1 billion people are wrong.

The Bandwagon Fallacy is very popular 'round these parts.

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by Gishgeron

 

  Far less "easy mode" when I can come in and smash your house and wall and pour lava over everything you love and own.  Suddenly intricate redstone configurations because vital and player vigilance begins to matter.  Not that I want to attack you on your points, they are great and I've wanted to try wurm for awhile.  But I do want to reinforce the ideal that Minecraft hasn't made fools of anybody.  Its not an MMO for a reason.  It doesn't work as one.  Our genre is plagued by its own lifeblood, massive players online.  What you can and cannot do changes when that happens.  Things you do now drive a wedge between your players that a single player game, or limited multiplayer game, wouldn't drive there.

  I get the point the OP wants to make.  Give players systems and tools instead of rails and rules and you'll have a longer lifespan.  Mostly true.  But its easy to forget that this market didn't become themepark central for no reason.  The design core of these games is in conflict with itself, and there not a cure-all for it.

Great post, I agree. Especially the highlighted part.

Wow, yeah.  That is incredibly insightful.  We have short memories I guess.

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

MInecraft works when you can control who you let play with your world.

In an MMO everyone will be playing in your world, my world.  A completely different beast.

I would very much like an MMO where I could make anything.  I would really hate an MMO where others could destroy what I created. 

Plenty of mods out there that let you section off areas and protect them from destruction. There are some really good RPG/Faction War servers out there. I dabbled on one called Aethery's Ascended for awhile, adn donated 10 dollars for a 20 plot safe area to build my town on.

Originally posted by Anthur
...snip

Unfortunately many MMO companies (and all AAAs) start with the graphics ("look what great gfx we have here") and totally neglect the other features. Just for shiny graphics. The depressing part is, it is our fault. First comment you see about each new game is "graphics suck/are great".

Would be interesting to see a MMO developer who starts with the features he wants to realize in his MMO and build his graphics on top of that. But no, it must be more shadows, more polygons, more textures and less freedom for the player. How boring is paradise if you can't do anything in it ?

Isn't that the frickin' truth. You always have to wade through what the graphics are like to get any real answers about gameplay.

Where does the obsession with graphics and animation come from. I can only imagine that it's people trying to literally live another life in the games instead of seeing them as games. I think the people that laugh at graphics while dismissing games  on them do it because they can't see themselves IN the game. If it doesn't look like real life, they can't see themselves with a new start in the game because real life failed them. That is the only reason they would need things to look so realistic is that they are literally trying to have that "second life". I've seen people make long-winded posts on game forums about animations and graphic imperfections and they seriously consider these things gamebreaking. They value it so highly it's unreal.

I don't understand this reasoning to dismiss a game just based on the graphics so the only thing I can surmise is that it's an inadequacy in themselves shining through to make them so steadfast that a game must be lavish in view, resemble real life, and be 3d or there is no way they would touch it when it's called MMO. I'm sure plenty of them can play cards and be entertained but there is something about that word that makes them long for realism. Playing cards haven't changed graphics for hundreds of years (if anything they became more plain) and card games are still the most played games out there. 

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Originally posted by Xobdnas
So much time, money, and energy goes into filling the MMORPG game world with content, but the reality is (and Minecraft proves this) no matter how good the team, if you let the players build it the results will surpass your greatest expectations. I believe the old saying is do not teach a person to use a tool, give them the tool and be surprised by their innovation in using it. So MMORPG companies, when will you give us the empty world and the tools and turn us loose to make the greatest MMORPG of all time?

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Originally posted by Isturi
Whats extremely funny or stupid or lack of insight your choice is that this site refuse to officially see minecraft as a legit MMO and give them its own forum as to they give other games that are not MMO's like LOL its own forum go figure.

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Yea it's only a game where you can build anything. Play or host on servers able to configure multiple rulesets and mods.

You can even get texture packs to make the graphics not suck so bad along with being able to download or design skins for your avatar.

Any MMORPG that wants to make a sandbox game should take a serious look at what Minecraft did. The fact that this site does not list it and it sold over 9 million copies alone should tell you how good it is.

Minecraft does not have fun combat to me. It is a non-starter. And most player created content is crap. I have seen my sons playing it with his friends .. they can't pay me to play their "content".

Sure, there are those who create novelty like putting a WOW city into Minecraft, or create the Starship enterprise, but anyone who think it can replace WOW is smoking crack.

It is just a different kind of game. It is only for people who want to build stuff, not those who like progression/combat MMOs.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Minecraft does not have fun combat to me. It is a non-starter. And most player created content is crap. I have seen my sons playing it with his friends .. they can't pay me to play their "content".

Sure, there are those who create novelty like putting a WOW city into Minecraft, or create the Starship enterprise, but anyone who think it can replace WOW is smoking crack.

It is just a different kind of game. It is only for people who want to build stuff, not those who like progression/combat MMOs.

It's not about playing someone elses content. It's about making your own.

If your looking at Minecraft in that light with your lobby game bias I can see why you dismiss the game.

Building stuff is progression. You start with an idea, gather materials, foundation, scafolding if needed, main structure, additions, finishing touch... you were probably hinting at character progression but that could be included.

Sure the combat could be improved, along with the npcs and monsters but Minecraft is a solid place to start looking at designing a sandbox MMORPG.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Minecraft does not have fun combat to me. It is a non-starter. And most player created content is crap. I have seen my sons playing it with his friends .. they can't pay me to play their "content".

Sure, there are those who create novelty like putting a WOW city into Minecraft, or create the Starship enterprise, but anyone who think it can replace WOW is smoking crack.

It is just a different kind of game. It is only for people who want to build stuff, not those who like progression/combat MMOs.

Well said. It's definitely a builder game, not for someone who enjoys combat, replayability, progression, PvP, pretty much anything that makes an MMO an MMO. It has it's strong points, but the glaring weaknesses make it not even really an option unless you just want to make a pretty house and fall in lava.

Originally posted by EccentricPenguin
minecraft also looks like an un-fun version of some backshelf b-title from the 20's.

 It is unfun and gets dull fast.  Just buy a box of legos and sit home and make stuff its better.

Originally posted by Betaguy

Originally posted by EccentricPenguin
minecraft also looks like an un-fun version of some backshelf b-title from the 20's.

 It is unfun and gets dull fast.  Just buy a box of legos and sit home and make stuff its better.

Legos are overpowered.  Nerf Legos!