Originally posted by Eol-

Originally posted by Yaevindusk

...The MMO genre has very much been "bastardized" in a matter of speaking; those who started in the 90s or early 00's typically loved MMOs for what they were...  

Agreed. There is a huge gap in mindset between the people who played mmorpgs before WoW, versus those that started after. WoW signalled a massive shift in mmorpgs; games became much less hardcore when levelling and far more accessible to casual players. That was a good thing in many ways, but a bad thing in others. People talk about wanting the good ole pre-Wow days, but at the same time I think their memory is biased somewhat: they remember the good things more than the bad.

MMORPG.com has a lot more of the old school players, so you are going to get a different perspective here than from the mmorpg player base as a whole. The problem is, making a game that appeals mainly to old school players probably wont be financially successful, especially for a game like Elder Scrolls which has a huge player base, most of whom are not hardcore PvPers. There is no way that ESO will put years of development and  tens of millions of dollars into a game with limited mainstream appeal. That may be what the old school players want, but its not a viable business model for a game with widespread appeal like Elder Scrolls.

Plus, when you listen to the old school players talk about what made the games they liked great, they often dont agree. They have many different wants and perspectives. It wouldnt be possible to design a game for them because there is no one game that would satisfy most of them. They will complain about what the game companies do, not accepting the fact that investors arent going to fork over $100M to design a game to appeal to 100k people. A smaller indie company might spend less and target that nicke market, but not a game based on Elder Scrolls. I am sure they are aiming for 1M+, and you wont get there by designing a game for hardcore PvPers. First and foremost they need to satisfy a large chunk of the ES/Skyrim player base, and make sure that the game is appealing to a wide variety of players. They say max level can be reached in 120 hours and that is obviously aimed at casual and semi-casual players.

By the way, I am an old school gamer, but have spent decades in the business world, I dont let my gaming desires blind me to the financial reality these companies are facing. Like it or not, WoW has revolutionized the industry and greatly upped the curve in terms of $ and polish required to publish a game, and massively changed the playerbase. Any game aimed at mainstream players would be foolish to ignore that.

Yeah but they are designing the game for PvP'rs IMO.  They've changed the lore, locked races to factions and split off the areas just for PvP - this goes against the nature of TES (I'm not talking about sandbox v. themepark here).  I agree that they shouldn't design ESO for a niche market but TES series is HARDLY a niche market.

They could've mainstreamed the game some but it seems as if they was trying to play off DAoC's legend.  They could've made a MMO and still stayed true to the TES franchise in a lot of ways.  I think it wouldn't be any more of a risk getting a little creative when converting Elder Scrolls to an MMO rather than just making a standardized MMO with an Elder Scrolls cover.

They keep trying to recreate MMOs instead of looking at it from a fresh perspective.  You can't recreate trends.  They need to get back to the basics and just focus on making a game fresh, fun and entertaining.

Originally posted by Eol-

Originally posted by Yaevindusk

...The MMO genre has very much been "bastardized" in a matter of speaking; those who started in the 90s or early 00's typically loved MMOs for what they were...  

Agreed. There is a huge gap in mindset between the people who played mmorpgs before WoW, versus those that started after. WoW signalled a massive shift in mmorpgs; games became much less hardcore when levelling and far more accessible to casual players. That was a good thing in many ways, but a bad thing in others. People talk about wanting the good ole pre-Wow days, but at the same time I think their memory is biased somewhat: they remember the good things more than the bad.

MMORPG.com has a lot more of the old school players, so you are going to get a different perspective here than from the mmorpg player base as a whole. The problem is, making a game that appeals mainly to old school players probably wont be financially successful, especially for a game like Elder Scrolls which has a huge player base, most of whom are not hardcore PvPers. There is no way that ESO will put years of development and  tens of millions of dollars into a game with limited mainstream appeal. That may be what the old school players want, but its not a viable business model for a game with widespread appeal like Elder Scrolls.

Plus, when you listen to the old school players talk about what made the games they liked great, they often dont agree. They have many different wants and perspectives. It wouldnt be possible to design a game for them because there is no one game that would satisfy most of them. They will complain about what the game companies do, not accepting the fact that investors arent going to fork over $100M to design a game to appeal to 100k people. A smaller indie company might spend less and target that nicke market, but not a game based on Elder Scrolls. I am sure they are aiming for 1M+, and you wont get there by designing a game for hardcore PvPers. First and foremost they need to satisfy a large chunk of the ES/Skyrim player base, and make sure that the game is appealing to a wide variety of players. They say max level can be reached in 120 hours and that is obviously aimed at casual and semi-casual players.

By the way, I am an old school gamer, but have spent decades in the business world, I dont let my gaming desires blind me to the financial reality these companies are facing. Like it or not, WoW has revolutionized the industry and greatly upped the curve in terms of $ and polish required to publish a game, and massively changed the playerbase. Any game aimed at mainstream players would be foolish to ignore that.

Great post!

MMO devs have to match their expenditure in designing the game to the amount of players (and money) it will bring in.  Otherwise, disaster.  If SWToR had been made at a quarter of the cost, it would have been a raging success.  I think your reading of the business goals of TESO, based on it's major IP, is probably quite accurate.  I do think that some of the development in the MMO will be helpful to the next Elder Scrolls game (art assets, world design, etc),  which could spread out the usefulness of the investment.

However, folks tend to want things perfect, out of the gate these days, and compare any new game to those with many years of refinement and expansion.  So, even developing specifically for an 'old school' market, you run in to competing ideas of what's acceptable for modern 'old school' design.

Originally posted by sapphen

Yeah but they are designing the game for PvP'rs IMO.  They've changed the lore, locked races to factions and split off the areas just for PvP - this goes against the nature of TES (I'm not talking about sandbox v. themepark here).  I agree that they shouldn't design ESO for a niche market but TES series is HARDLY a niche market.

They could've mainstreamed the game some but it seems as if they was trying to play off DAoC's legend.  They could've made a MMO and still stayed true to the TES franchise in a lot of ways.  I think it wouldn't be any more of a risk getting a little creative when converting Elder Scrolls to an MMO rather than just making a standardized MMO with an Elder Scrolls cover.

They keep trying to recreate MMOs instead of looking at it from a fresh perspective.  You can't recreate trends.  They need to get back to the basics and just focus on making a game fresh, fun and entertaining.

Thing is, that DAOC legend is really just that. A legend

DAOC was really just a mediocre game. It never got higher that 250k subs. About the same as UO. Never got close to EQs 400k subs.

At the time is ranked in about 3rd or 4th.

Once WoW released they lost the majority of PvE players

Only the Hardcore RvRvR players stayed

If Zenimax is targeting 250k people from over 10 years ago, well I think that is a really blind target they are shooting for.

Anyone that is really into the Elder Scrolls series will take one look at this game and move on because it wont be even close to being what they desire from the series

Originally posted by Arglebargle

Originally posted by Eol-

Originally posted by Yaevindusk

...The MMO genre has very much been "bastardized" in a matter of speaking; those who started in the 90s or early 00's typically loved MMOs for what they were...  

Agreed. There is a huge gap in mindset between the people who played mmorpgs before WoW, versus those that started after. WoW signalled a massive shift in mmorpgs; games became much less hardcore when levelling and far more accessible to casual players. That was a good thing in many ways, but a bad thing in others. People talk about wanting the good ole pre-Wow days, but at the same time I think their memory is biased somewhat: they remember the good things more than the bad.

MMORPG.com has a lot more of the old school players, so you are going to get a different perspective here than from the mmorpg player base as a whole. The problem is, making a game that appeals mainly to old school players probably wont be financially successful, especially for a game like Elder Scrolls which has a huge player base, most of whom are not hardcore PvPers. There is no way that ESO will put years of development and  tens of millions of dollars into a game with limited mainstream appeal. That may be what the old school players want, but its not a viable business model for a game with widespread appeal like Elder Scrolls.

Plus, when you listen to the old school players talk about what made the games they liked great, they often dont agree. They have many different wants and perspectives. It wouldnt be possible to design a game for them because there is no one game that would satisfy most of them. They will complain about what the game companies do, not accepting the fact that investors arent going to fork over $100M to design a game to appeal to 100k people. A smaller indie company might spend less and target that nicke market, but not a game based on Elder Scrolls. I am sure they are aiming for 1M+, and you wont get there by designing a game for hardcore PvPers. First and foremost they need to satisfy a large chunk of the ES/Skyrim player base, and make sure that the game is appealing to a wide variety of players. They say max level can be reached in 120 hours and that is obviously aimed at casual and semi-casual players.

By the way, I am an old school gamer, but have spent decades in the business world, I dont let my gaming desires blind me to the financial reality these companies are facing. Like it or not, WoW has revolutionized the industry and greatly upped the curve in terms of $ and polish required to publish a game, and massively changed the playerbase. Any game aimed at mainstream players would be foolish to ignore that.

Great post!

 

MMO devs have to match their expenditure in designing the game to the amount of players (and money) it will bring in.  Otherwise, disaster.  If SWToR had been made at a quarter of the cost, it would have been a raging success.  I think your reading of the business goals of TESO, based on it's major IP, is probably quite accurate.  I do think that some of the development in the MMO will be helpful to the next Elder Scrolls game (art assets, world design, etc),  which could spread out the usefulness of the investment.

 

However, folks tend to want things perfect, out of the gate these days, and compare any new game to those with many years of refinement and expansion.  So, even developing specifically for an 'old school' market, you run in to competing ideas of what's acceptable for modern 'old school' design.

 

I just can't get your link between old school and PVP.  Old School mmo design was about a Virtual World with or without PVP. PVP was always a major part because as in our world conflict is constant. Thats it.

Ryzon for exemple is old school like without a major PVP system. 

The elder scrolls series was always about freedom and immersion. There was the main story, it was a single player game afterall. But the main story was one of the main parts of the game.  This TESO  will be just like any other mmo, with The Elder Scrolls name printed on it.  

Originally posted by PyrateLV

Anyone that is really into the Elder Scrolls series will take one look at this game and move on because it wont be even close to being what they desire from the series

 

You really shouldn't attempt to speak for others, I really don't play anything right now but Bethesda games (well obsidian as well, FONV) only exception being Total War titles i own and a SB title I can't mention due to site rules.

I'm "really into TES games" have been since Morrowind. I've taken quite a few looks at ESO, haven't moved on yet. So I'd say this statement falls flat on it's face.

Originally posted by ShakyMo
Pyrate
So you think wow is the best mmo ever then? I mean it has the most players.

Where have I ever said that "Most Players = Best Game" ?

But 10 Million sunbs does show it was the most popular

You seriously need to stop trying put words in my mouth. Its getting old

I said DAOC never got more than 250k subs (alot were BuffBots), so it wasnt the end-all be-all game YOU think it was.

Some loved it. Alot didnt. It was small beans in a big soup

Originally posted by PyrateLV

Thing is, that DAOC legend is really just that. A legend

DAOC was really just a mediocre game. It never got higher that 250k subs. About the same as UO. Never got close to EQs 400k subs.

If Zenimax is targeting 250k people from over 10 years ago, well I think that is a really blind target they are shooting for.

Anyone that is really into the Elder Scrolls series will take one look at this game and move on because it wont be even close to being what they desire from the series

That's what I was thinking about the entire time reading his post!  He said that developers/publishers should push for a large audience but ESO seems more like it's trying to knock off DAoC.  Hell, TES games outnumber most MMOs in players and retention.

Zenimax had an EASY FREAKEN JOB (apart from the really freaken hard job of programming, testing etc), all they had to do was work out some single player elements, make a neat MMO setting, and they practically had a best seller.  Instead they slapped in commonly expected MMO systems and then put a TES label on it.  They either didn't try or just didn't understand what made Elder Scrolls a great franchise.

Whoever invests in a MMO now-a-days is taking a huge risk as it is, much more if it's the same garbage they've been throwing at us for the past few years.

Originally posted by Distopia

Originally posted by PyrateLV

Anyone that is really into the Elder Scrolls series will take one look at this game and move on because it wont be even close to being what they desire from the series

 

You really shouldn't attempt to speak for others, I really don't play anything right now but Bethesda games (well obsidian as well, FONV) only exception being Total War titles i own and a SB title I can't mention due to site rules.

I'm "really into TES games" have been since Morrowind. I've taken quite a few looks at ESO, haven't moved on yet. So I'd say this statement falls flat on it's face.

Ok, so you are 1 that doesnt fall into that list. But you are right. I shouldnt speak for others.

I am willing to wager on quite a few ES fans not liking TESO

Originally posted by PyrateLV

Originally posted by Distopia

Originally posted by PyrateLV

Anyone that is really into the Elder Scrolls series will take one look at this game and move on because it wont be even close to being what they desire from the series

 

You really shouldn't attempt to speak for others, I really don't play anything right now but Bethesda games (well obsidian as well, FONV) only exception being Total War titles i own and a SB title I can't mention due to site rules.

I'm "really into TES games" have been since Morrowind. I've taken quite a few looks at ESO, haven't moved on yet. So I'd say this statement falls flat on it's face.

Ok, so you are 1 that doesnt fall into that list. But you are right. I shouldnt speak for others.

 

I am willing to wager on quite a few ES fans not liking TESO

I wouldn't bet against that wager :).

Originally posted by PyrateLV

Ok, so you are 1 that doesnt fall into that list. But you are right. I shouldnt speak for others.

 

I am willing to wager on quite a few ES fans not liking TESO

 All you had to do was direct them to something like Skyrims Nexus forums...or, Skyrims offical forums...or Oblivions offical forums...or any non MMO gaming forum to point out how MANY TES fans are pissed beyond belief at what is being done with TESO.

Keep in mind, there are a TON of DaoC fanboys on this site and would kiss the backside of anyone making a DaoC clone, no matter what setting its in. Hell, someone could be making a Kingdom Hearts or Hello Kitty DaoC clone and they would still cheer like school girls over it.

Originally posted by Istavaan

Well then if you have seen plenty of ES you'll know they've been dumbing them down for years. morrowind is nothing like oblivion. The difference between the two is sandbox and themepark.

Sadly that is true.  Skyrim went back to more of the Morrowind style though at least.  Go vote for your favorite TES game in the general gaming forum.

Originally posted by Distopia

Originally posted by PyrateLV

Originally posted by Distopia

Originally posted by PyrateLV

Anyone that is really into the Elder Scrolls series will take one look at this game and move on because it wont be even close to being what they desire from the series

 

You really shouldn't attempt to speak for others, I really don't play anything right now but Bethesda games (well obsidian as well, FONV) only exception being Total War titles i own and a SB title I can't mention due to site rules.

I'm "really into TES games" have been since Morrowind. I've taken quite a few looks at ESO, haven't moved on yet. So I'd say this statement falls flat on it's face.

Ok, so you are 1 that doesnt fall into that list. But you are right. I shouldnt speak for others.

 

I am willing to wager on quite a few ES fans not liking TESO

I wouldn't bet against that wager :).

Why? Because you know you would lose?

Originally posted by PyrateLV

Ok, so you are 1 that doesnt fall into that list. But you are right. I shouldnt speak for others.

I am willing to wager on quite a few ES fans not liking TESO

I don't buy in with half these people who suddenly become Elder Scrolls fans.  ESO semi-offical forums are full of them saying "WE LIKE THE GAME" yet most all of them have 2012 join dates.  I'm betting most of these people never really understood TES or zenimax is hiring people to play crowd control.

Originally posted by jtcgs

Originally posted by PyrateLV

Ok, so you are 1 that doesnt fall into that list. But you are right. I shouldnt speak for others.

 

I am willing to wager on quite a few ES fans not liking TESO

 All you had to do was direct them to something like Skyrims Nexus forums...or, Skyrims offical forums...or Oblivions offical forums...or any non MMO gaming forum to point out how MANY TES fans are pissed beyond belief at what is being done with TESO.

Keep in mind, there are a TON of DaoC fanboys on this site and would kiss the backside of anyone making a DaoC clone, no matter what setting its in. Hell, someone could be making a Kingdom Hearts or Hello Kitty DaoC clone and they would still cheer like school girls over it.

I visit the Nexus daily, both to submit mods as well as DL them. So no it's no secret there are a lot of people who do not like the direction this game is taking. That's beside the point though, as I fit a description Pyrate used to support a statement I was simply answering to that.

Originally posted by sapphen

Originally posted by PyrateLV

Ok, so you are 1 that doesnt fall into that list. But you are right. I shouldnt speak for others.

I am willing to wager on quite a few ES fans not liking TESO

I don't buy in with half these people who suddenly become Elder Scrolls fans.  ESO semi-offical forums are full of them saying "WE LIKE THE GAME" yet most all of them have 2012 join dates.  I'm betting most of these people never really understood TES or zenimax is hiring people to play crowd control.

I wonder if there is a job site somewhere to sign up for that.  I'd take money to go hype a game for sure. 

Originally posted by PyrateLV

Originally posted by Distopia

Originally posted by PyrateLV

 

I am willing to wager on quite a few ES fans not liking TESO

I wouldn't bet against that wager :).

Why? Because you know you would lose?

I figured that was obvious with my reply.

Originally posted by sapphen

Originally posted by PyrateLV

Ok, so you are 1 that doesnt fall into that list. But you are right. I shouldnt speak for others.

I am willing to wager on quite a few ES fans not liking TESO

I don't buy in with half these people who suddenly become Elder Scrolls fans.  ESO semi-offical forums are full of them saying "WE LIKE THE GAME" yet most all of them have 2012 join dates.  I'm betting most of these people never really understood TES or zenimax is hiring people to play crowd control.

I think alot of these new found ES fans are just old DAoC fans who have been rubbing themselves raw waiting for #2

Originally posted by sapphen

Originally posted by PyrateLV

Ok, so you are 1 that doesnt fall into that list. But you are right. I shouldnt speak for others.

I am willing to wager on quite a few ES fans not liking TESO

I don't buy in with half these people who suddenly become Elder Scrolls fans.  ESO semi-offical forums are full of them saying "WE LIKE THE GAME" yet most all of them have 2012 join dates.  I'm betting most of these people never really understood TES or zenimax is hiring people to play crowd control.

I don't think many understand TES offers something for many different playstyles and gaming interests especially when mods enter the picture. TES fans are a diverse group simply because of the nature of those games. So it does not surprise me that there are mixed feelings both good and bad about what has been shown so far.

Originally posted by PyrateLV

Originally posted by sapphen

Originally posted by PyrateLV

Ok, so you are 1 that doesnt fall into that list. But you are right. I shouldnt speak for others.

I am willing to wager on quite a few ES fans not liking TESO

I don't buy in with half these people who suddenly become Elder Scrolls fans.  ESO semi-offical forums are full of them saying "WE LIKE THE GAME" yet most all of them have 2012 join dates.  I'm betting most of these people never really understood TES or zenimax is hiring people to play crowd control.

I think alot of these new found ES fans are just old DAoC fans who have been rubbing themselves raw waiting for #2

This is gettting pretty comical now, you guys are the only "real" fans, I get it....