Originally posted by Icewhite

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Isturi
 

I think the nature of risks is that you don't know if it is going to pan out. If it is a sure thing, it is not a risk.

So we won't know .. until the risk pan out, and the next WOW arrives. Before that, everything just look .. risky.

And the risks are almost universally rejected by existing players...why can't we have Vanilla back? This was a great game before ToA. Damn them and their NGE.

MMO players talk a good game with regard to wanting innovation. But they don't walk the walk.

If you think about it, game players will walk the walk if the road is exciting enough, so the issues has to do with mitigating risk enough that it becomes viable to develop new exciting roads  in mmorgs.  One of the primary risks ofc is scale, if a mmorg sells well then a company neeeds to invest in massive infrastructure to support that player base, so innovation has to find a way of drastically reducing the maintainance and setup costs for a mmorg before everything else.  Innovation requries a diverse development base pushing each other and striving to creat ethat next great product - and that just aint gonna happen if the costs are too prohibitive for all but the biggest developers.

I have the same reply whenever I read someone post a "I'm bored with MMO's post". 

Players that feel this way need one of three things:

1. A break (fire up steam and play some indie games)

2. A guild (human interaction can breathe new life into a game)

3. A new perspective. (it's not the games fault, sometimes it's life.  Families, jobs and other hobbies start to creep in and sometimes it's time to do something else.)

Hate to break it to you, but it's not the MMORPG's fault.

Originally posted by Roxtarr

I have the same reply whenever I read someone post a "I'm bored with MMO's post". 

Players that feel this way need one of three things:

1. A break (fire up steam and play some indie games)

2. A guild (human interaction can breathe new life into a game)

3. A new perspective. (it's not the games fault, sometimes it's life.  Families, jobs and other hobbies start to creep in and sometimes it's time to do something else.)

Hate to break it to you, but it's not the MMORPG's fault.

Yes it is.  You could have listed any three things there that do not involve games, and the subject of your post could have been any extra-curricular activity.  In conclusion if you have nothing to say don't speak.  

mmo's developers have been lazy for a long time,  it is a shame.  

Originally posted by MightyChasm

Originally posted by Roxtarr

I have the same reply whenever I read someone post a "I'm bored with MMO's post". 

Players that feel this way need one of three things:

1. A break (fire up steam and play some indie games)

2. A guild (human interaction can breathe new life into a game)

3. A new perspective. (it's not the games fault, sometimes it's life.  Families, jobs and other hobbies start to creep in and sometimes it's time to do something else.)

Hate to break it to you, but it's not the MMORPG's fault.

Yes it is.  You could have listed any three things there that do not involve games, and the subject of your post could have been any extra-curricular activity.  In conclusion if you have nothing to say don't speak.  

mmo's developers have been lazy for a long time,  it is a shame.  

I can do that to...

No it's not.

See?

There is more selection in games today than in the history of gaming.  It's no different than my son saying, "Dad I have nothing to do." when he has so many more choices than I ever could dream of at his age.

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Boring and stale would be this weekly question.

The industry is more diverse and more active in both titles and demographic than it ever was before.

 

Not true, there are very few games that allow for anything other than combat these days and IMO that's one fo the main reasons the games are all becoming so stale. As much as there is a group of players that seem to only be interested in killing non-stop all day long quite a lot of MMO players actually like a bit of variety in their gameplay that few (if any) games currently offer.

Older MMOs didn't place such a focus on combat, with tertiary systems holding a much more important role and actually being the entire core of the game for some players. You used to be able to craft, or build a house, or go fishing or any number of other things without ever having to fight monsters if you chose...

Thankfully I think there's a bit of a renaissance in MMOs incoming in the next year or so as quite a few titles are slated with much more variety and less of a focus on combat being the only meaningful progression path. I believe FFXIV's re-release is going to be the first of these with a huge number of non-combat systems on offer that will allow players to avoid combat altogether if they like.

Originally posted by Alberel

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Boring and stale would be this weekly question.

The industry is more diverse and more active in both titles and demographic than it ever was before.

 

Not true, there are very few games that allow for anything other than combat these days and IMO that's one fo the main reasons the games are all becoming so stale. As much as there is a group of players that seem to only be interested in killing non-stop all day long quite a lot of MMO players actually like a bit of variety in their gameplay that few (if any) games currently offer.

So, how about a long list of all those other choices that were out there before today's MMO dark ages?  Can't be done.  This myth of a 'golden age' of MMO's doesn't exist.  They were grindy and reserved for those that had no other hobbies or interests.  

Players may be just as much to blame. Time and again, it seems that we consume whatever game is pushed out to us. We generate our own hype, raise the bar of expectation, and go forth full throttle into a game, and devouring everything possible in as short a time as possible.

On the flip side, developers and game companies seem to push games into production faster then they should; perhaps to meet deadlines, senior management expectations, or just because the budget has been reached. Nothing a hefty pre-order bonus package can't solve with the quick money grabs nor post-launch patches fix.

Unfortunately, after launch, the real testing begins and the number of bugs from beta multiplies. Developers are never able to catch up while players reach end-game sooner then anticipated.

Meanwhile, the players interest turns towards "Next New MMO To Be Released That Will Change Everything v1.0" and start generating the hype for that, while simultaneously announcing that the previous game was an "epic fail".

All the "bad" overshadows any "good innovation". Those that love games tend to quietly play them, while the haters post in every conceivable online forum about how much they hate a certain game.

Another game company sees a growing disenfranchised demographic and advances it's project milestones to get to production sooner for the money haul.

And so it goes.

Innovation does not seem to be the ultimate goal; it's just marketing lingo attached to a small handful of game mechanics to pull in subscribers. We cop to it. "Hey look! This game uses the word 'dynamic'! I'm all in!"

At times, it seems that the number of MMOs released is increasing at a faster clip then the size of the MMO demographic of players. The population is scattered and "thin".

It seems only natural, all things considered, that a game company would budget more money for post-launch bug fixes and customer service then for pre-launch design innovation. We're going to spend our money no matter what they put out there.

Originally posted by Isturi

Im sorry but it seems that MMO games in general have fizzeled for me. Nothing new to explore to excite me to make me jump out of my chair and say OMG this game has my attention for several years to come.

 

I wanted to just quote this small piece of your post as it seems the most relevant to my reply.

Perhaps your looking at MMO's all wrong now, your wanting a game that will keep you engrossed for years, yet since the inception of MMO's we are all fully aware that the content provided before any expansions is on average good for 3 months play, give or take a month either way.

The gaming market place is awash with AAA MMO's, alot are now F2P some are even B2P, yet they all share a common flaw, the content isn't there for a long term stint within it.

So instead of logging into the same old tired MMO day in day out why not take a look at the competition, there are literally hundreds of titles out there to choose from and surely something other than the game your currently fed up with should grab your interest, you could move around without paying anything for months on end if you so desired, and get your kicks while your old game slowly builds up new contet for you to come back to later on down the line.

There are even guilds out there that cater to more than 1 MMO at a time, so if your worried about starting up with a new community each time this should ease your worries, it's worth thinking about.

Originally posted by Roxtarr

Originally posted by MightyChasm

Originally posted by Roxtarr

I have the same reply whenever I read someone post a "I'm bored with MMO's post". 

Players that feel this way need one of three things:

1. A break (fire up steam and play some indie games)

2. A guild (human interaction can breathe new life into a game)

3. A new perspective. (it's not the games fault, sometimes it's life.  Families, jobs and other hobbies start to creep in and sometimes it's time to do something else.)

Hate to break it to you, but it's not the MMORPG's fault.

Yes it is.  You could have listed any three things there that do not involve games, and the subject of your post could have been any extra-curricular activity.  In conclusion if you have nothing to say don't speak.  

mmo's developers have been lazy for a long time,  it is a shame.  

I can do that to...

No it's not.

See?

There is more selection in games today than in the history of gaming.  It's no different than my son saying, "Dad I have nothing to do." when he has so many more choices than I ever could dream of at his age.

 

Well, I did explain my reasoning, and your comparison is simply nonsense.  

I am of half a mind to explain further, but I do not really see the point because if you believe that as a rule mmo's are without reproach and the individual players are incorrect for disliking them, then what is the point? 

Edit:  Apologies, I just reread that and I am creating an argument I really have no interest in.  Apologies.  

MMO's used to be a digital world, where you could "live"

They're not like that anymore, whatsoever, last mmo I played that was like this, was SWG, far from a perfect game, but the world was great.

Sure old games had tons of bugs, but I often viewed it as ingame life errors, like my RL car doesnt always start either, and our elevator break down from time to time, it would seem a lil odd, if ingame shit didnt break down from time to time.

EVE is probably the only proper "living" that's still around, the rest are either weird pvp sandbox "lets all grief eachother" games, or ZzzzZzing themepark games.

Originally posted by Alberel

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Boring and stale would be this weekly question.

The industry is more diverse and more active in both titles and demographic than it ever was before.

 

Not true, there are very few games that allow for anything other than combat these days and IMO that's one fo the main reasons the games are all becoming so stale. As much as there is a group of players that seem to only be interested in killing non-stop all day long quite a lot of MMO players actually like a bit of variety in their gameplay that few (if any) games currently offer.

That's due to MMOS being predominantly RPG. IT doesn't change the fact that there are hundreds of MMOs ranging from social worlds (vMTV, Muxlim, Utherverse) to linear fantasy stabbythings (LOTRO, RIFT, EQ, WOW) to sandboxes (Free Realms, EVE Online).

We have MMOs catering to so many more groups and interests now than ever before, resulting in many more non-combat or non-combatfocused MMOs.

Originally posted by Sephastus

Originally posted by Isturi

Im sorry but it seems that MMO games in general have fizzeled for me. Nothing new to explore to excite me to make me jump out of my chair and say OMG this game has my attention for several years to come. It seems Devs lost thier drive to make a new and fantastic MMO to give us gamers. No new turns no nothing at all that calls out for any long term or short term play for that matter.

Have Devs ran out of fresh idea's? I just think they are satified in giving us garbage any more and we still eat it up. We dont say enough is enough of the crap MMO's out there and we contenue to except the low grade junk as standard for gaming.

I guess I miss the newness of MMO games when only a handful of such games were availible to us like UO or EQ or even WoW in its hayday along with SWG for that matter when gaming companies took responsibilty for giving quality games. I just dont see the quality anymor.

I don't believe it is the games, since if you put a pure MMO virgin to play the AAA titles out there now, they would absolutely love it, and be hooked.

It has to do more with your own attitude and like/dislikes. You want something innovative, but are afraid of going out of the tried and true. Look at many of the other games posted and their styles. Or just change genres altogether. You might still want to play MMOs, but not specifically the RPG style. Look around, there might be still things that can keep your love for MMOs ablaze.

I dont believe its the games either. I believe its the Devs or whoever creates the idea for an MMO and its accompanying systems.   Of course if you put an MMO virgin in a AAA title they will enjoy because they have no expectations.  You cant miss or want something you dont know exists.

The genre of the MMO has signifigantly changed from having a virtual world that you live and interact in to something more to an online console game with RPG tropes.  You level.  You craft stuff.  You look around.  You PvP. etc.  But none of it today is connected in meaningful way.  Its becoming more and more lobby-based.   Now I agree with your point about likes/dislikes. And it seems the 'new' generation of gamers seem to accept this type of MMO (considering that they dont have a chance to play an older concept MMO).

And its not saying 'Go play EQ' (even though its a great game), to me, its to say why doesnt some company make an updated EQ.  And I dont mean an update.  I mean a completely new IP with the same concepts EQ was built on.  A full virtual world.  Crafting that is required because it better than mob drops.  Player driven economy.  You want food (because you would need it to survive) go to a chef crafting player.  Allow housing so a player can make roots.   But dont stop there.  Carry own what GW2 started.  Don't allow Kill stealing.  Why this is still being put into modern MMOs is rediculous.  How is that supposed to be fun?   Allow multi-node harvesting.  These are the things GW2 got right and should be a staple.  This is part of the problem what is holding MMOs back.  They are made with such stringent non-changing rule sets they its difficult for them to be fun, except possibly for those who dont know what they are missing.

MMOs are becoming smaller more compact experiences, and there is a segment of the community (myself included) who think that while is that is an option it is a more limited experience to the older titles.  Advancing these 'older' concepts would envigorate MMOs but perhaps the (popular) audience doesnt have the interest or perhaps dont want to engage that level of complexity (which I believe is the real underlying problem).

Originally posted by Vesavius

 

If you are burnt out, then you are burnt out... no point in us discussing your feelings at length here really, or looking for some supposed reason why these games have somehow failed you. You no longer, at this time, enjoy MMORPGs. Fine.

Then don't play them.

Time to take maybe a year off them and play something else, maybe even some tabletop or whatever. Maybe even nothing to do with gaming at all.

I have been playing since '99, but in that time I have taken extended breaks and that is the only reason I still play... I find what bored me sick became fun again after some time away. I even started missing from MMOs that what I had previously had hated, given time.

 

No point in blaming the games themselves here in this case tbh, it's just that you are at this time burnt out.

 

Let's be honest though, there are a TON of people around here who spend all their time bitching about the way games are and how they were so much better in the good old days who should take your advice and move on to something else.  The problem is, they don't know what to do with themselves without an MMO, they can't imagine spending their time on anything else.  They have wasted so many years of their lives wrapped up in these games that when the games stop being fun, they have no other options, they just stare at the wall and bitch on the forums about how awful life is.

It's pathetic.

Originally posted by Isturi

I agree those that you mention are risks. I think good steps. I guess what I am looking for is the Next WoW for say in its hayday. I know it is not going ot happen any time soon.

Sorry. that will never happen again.  WoW wasn't some quantum leap forward, it was a game that happened to be in the right place at the right time to take advantage of a particular situation that will never, ever come again.

If you're waiting for the next WoW, good luck.  You'll be waiting forever.

Originally posted by Isturi

Originally posted by Marcus-

What is it you want to do?

 

 

Also, calling SWG a quality game may be a stretch...

I just want a MMO game to jump and me knock me off my chair and say ok Im yours for the next few years. I just dont see that anymore.

SWG inovation was its crafting system. Very fresh for the time.

Sorry to say, but you're never going to get that feeling again.  It's like first love, it's always stronger and rosey colored that first time.  After that, the more you do it, it can be old hat.  MMO's now especially since they can't cater to a single player and instead have to appeal to a mass, which means it's HIGHLY likely that there are going to be features in a game you don't want and there will be features lacking that you do all in the name of a compromise to give just enough of a little bit of everything so more people will play.

You mention SWG as your opus of sorts, well enjoy those rosey colored memories.  I know my first MMO experience will be just the same (SWG as well).  Yes it was a flawed game, immensely so, but you know what, I loved 'er.  Every game since has just missed the mark more and more as I play more and more.  At some point I had to accept that first time feeling doesn't come back.

Originally posted by Gurpslord

Originally posted by Isturi

Originally posted by Marcus-

What is it you want to do?

 

 

Also, calling SWG a quality game may be a stretch...

I just want a MMO game to jump and me knock me off my chair and say ok Im yours for the next few years. I just dont see that anymore.

SWG inovation was its crafting system. Very fresh for the time.

Sorry to say, but you're never going to get that feeling again.  It's like first love, it's always stronger and rosey colored that first time.  After that, the more you do it, it can be old hat.  MMO's now especially since they can't cater to a single player and instead have to appeal to a mass, which means it's HIGHLY likely that there are going to be features in a game you don't want and there will be features lacking that you do all in the name of a compromise to give just enough of a little bit of everything so more people will play.

You mention SWG as your opus of sorts, well enjoy those rosey colored memories.  I know my first MMO experience will be just the same (SWG as well).  Yes it was a flawed game, immensely so, but you know what, I loved 'er.  Every game since has just missed the mark more and more as I play more and more.  At some point I had to accept that first time feeling doesn't come back.

People keep going on about this "first love" thing, yet it doesn't stack up with any other genre, you don't hear FPS fans going on about Wolfenstein, or platformers saying they want everything back like Donkey Kong was. MMOs have changed and in my opinion, despite technically improving, the gameplay has not improved, they have lost a lot of the things that I like, that isn't rose tinted glasses, just sadness. Happily a lot of the new games coming out are looking better in those regards.

Originally posted by Icewhite

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Isturi
 

I think the nature of risks is that you don't know if it is going to pan out. If it is a sure thing, it is not a risk.

So we won't know .. until the risk pan out, and the next WOW arrives. Before that, everything just look .. risky.

And the risks are almost universally rejected by existing players...why can't we have Vanilla back? This was a great game before ToA. Damn them and their NGE.

MMO players talk a good game with regard to wanting innovation. But they don't walk the walk.

So what you want is not dev taking risks .. but going back to the old way?

If you want innovation, embrace new ideas. People who want the old days do not want innovation, by definition.