Originally posted by kadepsyson

 

Why would I want to dismiss that arguement?  You know, the one where people playing the game should get rewards from their gameplay.  Why would I be against playing a game to earn in game things?

So time spent should assure victory? You do realize that no matter how the other person recieved their gear it does not diminish your rewards right? Unless you are talking about actual competition and not just ganking and feeling like a pro.

You say it stops third party sales and hacked accounts, and I literally busted out laughing.  I don't mean to be rude, but multiple times a day I have received friend requests in Diablo 3 that really are bots advertising their 3rd party RMT sites.  People still buy those, people still lose control over their accounts.  So yes, it didn't stop 3rd party RMT.  People still do that, and still lose accounts, but now Blizzard does it too to cash in on the RMT.

Also, PLEX to me is horrible.  Yes I can see the advantage of using in game money to fund your gametime.  However, when  a person can outright buy a character that has taken years to gain the skills it has, any ship available for sale, and pretty much any other market item, that is terrible.  It cheapens the experience, including the risk vs reward PVP.  Why care if you risk an expensive ship if you can just open your wallet and replace it?

I never said it stopped it. It does however take a rather drastic chunk out of it. Much like the always online DRM is in an effort to combat piracy. Also, good luck just opening your wallet and replacing any of the even halfway expensive ships in Eve.

So yes, I do not appreciate RMT, even when the developers use it to cash in on normally a bannable offense.

Do you know why it was bannable? I mean I see you hiding behind the rules without even understanding why they exist. The offense was bannable due to a couple of factors. The biggest one is legal. You do not own your character in any way. To allow you to do so opens up issues with both players rights and copyright. This is why other games such as Second Life and Project Entropia are set up the way they are. The lesser is of course, the publisher was not able to get their cut, or control it in any way. Some developers (UO) actually saw it as a way to keep an eye on the game and saw it as an oddity. It was not until later when they started seeing an actual out of game economy sprout from it (and with it the infamous Chinese Farmer) that companies really cracked down on it. It very much is a case of "if you can't beat em, join em". It is a war that as a publisher costs you tons of money to fight, and you simply cannot win. So yes, RMAH, developer controlled, is very much the better way go about it. With this as a blueprint be prepared to see other games start adopting it.

Originally posted by SBFord

Originally posted by Psychow
I never had any intention of PvPing on D3. I guess I'm a story fanboy and thus D3 is an amazingly good game...to me.

Exactly how I feel. Thanks for stating it so succinctly. :)

I do not understand how you can say it is amazingly good?  That just does not compute.  In Diablo II, you could basically equip your avatar with decent equipment just by playing without spending huge hours doing so. Completely NOT possible with Diablo III.  I hate having to use the auction house, much rather find things myself, but when a level 60 avatar gets yellow items in the 30's in a hell game, it really illustrates how badly broken the itemization is.  I just checked, I have 287 hours in the game on all my characters, and NOT ONE legendary drop ever.  The game is just broken and I just cannot believe anyone has fun playing it compared to the fun in Diablo II.

If I had an employee do such a bad job on upgrading a system, they would be looking for another job.

Originally posted by expresso

Originally posted by Ozmodan

Long time Diablo 1 & 2 player who was looking forward to this game.  Never have been so disappointed in a game before.  Worst itemization I have seen.  Drops were horrid, the only way to equip your character was off the auction house.  Sorry, rather find my equipment.  Hence I gave the game to my son, who soon ditched it too.

The pvp never materialized and the patches do little to fix the game.  Heck I would have accepted a graphically updated Diablo II over this any day in the week.

So yeah, Jay Wilson basically blew it.  Anyone attempting to say nice things about the job he did, did not play the game much.

You do realise the items on the AH were found by REAL players, make up your mind - you say the only good items are on the AH (all of which are found in game) yet you prefer to find the items yourself, then play the damn game and find the items, put the time and effort in.  Talk about a Contradiction.

I think it too took guts for blizzard to do what they did with the PvP, they were not happy to release something they thought was subpar, yes blizzard has dragged their feet but what you you prefer?

Its not a conflict at all. Players put them up on the AH to sell because they were no use to them. It's fairly clear the way loot was handled, players were encouraged to use the AH or the RMAH because they loot they'd find was almost never useful to the person who found it.

A player who didn't want to have anything to do with the AH Gold or RM, and just play and find great loot was going to be disappointed.

Originally posted by Ozmodan

Originally posted by SBFord

Originally posted by Psychow
I never had any intention of PvPing on D3. I guess I'm a story fanboy and thus D3 is an amazingly good game...to me.

Exactly how I feel. Thanks for stating it so succinctly. :)

I do not understand how you can say it is amazingly good?  That just does not compute.  In Diablo II, you could basically equip your avatar with decent equipment just by playing without spending huge hours doing so. Completely NOT possible with Diablo III.  I hate having to use the auction house, much rather find things myself, but when a level 60 avatar gets yellow items in the 30's in a hell game, it really illustrates how badly broken the itemization is.  I just checked, I have 287 hours in the game on all my characters, and NOT ONE legendary drop ever.  The game is just broken and I just cannot believe anyone has fun playing it compared to the fun in Diablo II.

If I had an employee do such a bad job on upgrading a system, they would be looking for another job.

It's not broken by any means. It is exactly the way it was desined to be, and that is, it encourages trade between players.

Originally posted by birdycephon

Originally posted by Ozmodan

Originally posted by SBFord

Originally posted by Psychow
I never had any intention of PvPing on D3. I guess I'm a story fanboy and thus D3 is an amazingly good game...to me.

Exactly how I feel. Thanks for stating it so succinctly. :)

I do not understand how you can say it is amazingly good?  That just does not compute.  In Diablo II, you could basically equip your avatar with decent equipment just by playing without spending huge hours doing so. Completely NOT possible with Diablo III.  I hate having to use the auction house, much rather find things myself, but when a level 60 avatar gets yellow items in the 30's in a hell game, it really illustrates how badly broken the itemization is.  I just checked, I have 287 hours in the game on all my characters, and NOT ONE legendary drop ever.  The game is just broken and I just cannot believe anyone has fun playing it compared to the fun in Diablo II.

If I had an employee do such a bad job on upgrading a system, they would be looking for another job.

It's not broken by any means. It is exactly the way it was desined to be, and that is, it encourages trade between players.

Yes, that is fine for players who want that. But what about the player who'd like the experience of playing and being rewarded with the loot they find? I'll grant you that dynamic isn't broken, it just been deliberately nearly removed from the game.

Originally posted by jimdandy26

Originally posted by kadepsyson

 

Why would I want to dismiss that arguement?  You know, the one where people playing the game should get rewards from their gameplay.  Why would I be against playing a game to earn in game things?

So time spent should assure victory? You do realize that no matter how the other person recieved their gear it does not diminish your rewards right? Unless you are talking about actual competition and not just ganking and feeling like a pro.

You say it stops third party sales and hacked accounts, and I literally busted out laughing.  I don't mean to be rude, but multiple times a day I have received friend requests in Diablo 3 that really are bots advertising their 3rd party RMT sites.  People still buy those, people still lose control over their accounts.  So yes, it didn't stop 3rd party RMT.  People still do that, and still lose accounts, but now Blizzard does it too to cash in on the RMT.

Also, PLEX to me is horrible.  Yes I can see the advantage of using in game money to fund your gametime.  However, when  a person can outright buy a character that has taken years to gain the skills it has, any ship available for sale, and pretty much any other market item, that is terrible.  It cheapens the experience, including the risk vs reward PVP.  Why care if you risk an expensive ship if you can just open your wallet and replace it?

I never said it stopped it. It does however take a rather drastic chunk out of it. Much like the always online DRM is in an effort to combat piracy. Also, good luck just opening your wallet and replacing any of the even halfway expensive ships in Eve.

So yes, I do not appreciate RMT, even when the developers use it to cash in on normally a bannable offense.

Do you know why it was bannable? I mean I see you hiding behind the rules without even understanding why they exist. The offense was bannable due to a couple of factors. The biggest one is legal. You do not own your character in any way. To allow you to do so opens up issues with both players rights and copyright. This is why other games such as Second Life and Project Entropia are set up the way they are. The lesser is of course, the publisher was not able to get their cut, or control it in any way. Some developers (UO) actually saw it as a way to keep an eye on the game and saw it as an oddity. It was not until later when they started seeing an actual out of game economy sprout from it (and with it the infamous Chinese Farmer) that companies really cracked down on it. It very much is a case of "if you can't beat em, join em". It is a war that as a publisher costs you tons of money to fight, and you simply cannot win. So yes, RMAH, developer controlled, is very much the better way go about it. With this as a blueprint be prepared to see other games start adopting it.

 

Always on DRM?  You mean the stuff that makes it so Diablo 3 cannot be played unless you have internet connection, and the Blizzard servers are on?  How I can't mod the game to extend replayability, or to mess around with LAN friends?  Yeah, that's a great feature too - one that diminishes the game for everyone to prevent something a few might do.

Also, with your bit about halfway expensive eve ships you pretty much proved my point more than yours.  You're right, they would be freaking expensive in real money terms to replace.  And not everyone can do that.  Therefore, the ones who can, are paying for an advantage.  BOOM.

I did enjoy how your justification at the end is "Hey we can't stop them from doing stuff we don't like, so we may as well just do it too and profit along the way"

To me it isn't about rules so much as it is about gameplay being diminished and ethical development.

I don't want to see a point in gaming where there isn't a point in playing anymore when you can unlock and do everything by pressing the "confirm payment" button.  I prefer the system where if you want to gain/unlock/achieve something, you have to do it by playing, not paying.

It seems like another case of "devs say its good, it must be good!"

Hell....

Its about time!

:D

Originally posted by ShakyMo
Unfair to blame this guy.

Blame the blizzard bosses for

1 using diablo3 as an experiment in how they can "moneytize" Titan and maybe even wow. Put in a rmah, the design your entire bloody game around it - crappy loot drops, constant journeys back to town, various other gold sinks etc..
2 letting 3 of your most talented d1 & d2 devs go of and make a better game, for less money.

People move on and change jobs / careers every day. Why is this such a big issue in the video game industry. I have never once bought a game because "Bob" made it. I bought it on the games merits itself. Sure there are stars, but there are also up and comming stars that we don't know about.

If ShakyMo made a good game, I'd buy it, because th game was good. If the company subsequently let ShakyMo go and then made a new game with his replacement, I'd buy it if it was good. I wouldn't hold a grudge that my beloved ShakeyMo wasn't involved in the new game.

Originally posted by Psychow
I never had any intention of PvPing on D3. I guess I'm a story fanboy and thus D3 is an amazingly good game...to me.

Wouldn't that require a good story though? One of the biggest complaints at launch was how lame the story was... I had no interest in the PvP either but I was incrediby disappointed with the game partly because of how pathetic the story was.

Originally posted by birdycephon

It's not broken by any means. It is exactly the way it was desined to be, and that is, it encourages trade between players.

There's a diference between encouraging trade between players and forcing players to trade to get even the basic gear they need .

An item that has a 1 in 10000 chance to drop means there will probably be quite a few on an AH for sale with a population as large as D3 started with....it also means you'll probably never find it.

That's how you force people to trade.

Originally posted by Alberel

Originally posted by Psychow
I never had any intention of PvPing on D3. I guess I'm a story fanboy and thus D3 is an amazingly good game...to me.

Wouldn't that require a good story though? One of the biggest complaints at launch was how lame the story was... I had no interest in the PvP either but I was incrediby disappointed with the game partly because of how pathetic the story was.

I din't feel the story was pathetic. It could have been better, sure, but not pathetic. It's like a summer blockbuster action flick...you know how it's going to end, but you just go along for the ride.

Originally posted by OgreRaper
Heh, I liked Diablo 1 and 2 but have never even played Diablo 3. Heard about the real money auction house before it launched and decided not have any part of that.

 That's OK most of the people bitching up a storm haven't played it recently either. The game isn't perfect but is a lot of fun for me. But hey why would they waste a perfect excuse to get bent out of shape over something so trivial as a game. It's not like the world has any serious issues to be concerned about.  /eyeroll

Originally posted by DamonVile

Originally posted by birdycephon

It's not broken by any means. It is exactly the way it was desined to be, and that is, it encourages trade between players.

There's a diference between encouraging trade between players and forcing players to trade to get even the basic gear they need .

An item that has a 1 in 10000 chance to drop means there will probably be quite a few on an AH for sale with a population as large as D3 started with....it also means you'll probably never find it.

That's how you force people to trade.

If you're "forced" to trade you must suck at the game. I've never had any great  difficulty  doing anything in the game without ever using the auction house. There are no must have items. You just can't faceroll inferno though.

Originally posted by zymurgeist

Originally posted by OgreRaper
Heh, I liked Diablo 1 and 2 but have never even played Diablo 3. Heard about the real money auction house before it launched and decided not have any part of that.

 That's OK most of the people bitching up a storm haven't played it recently either. The game isn't perfect but is a lot of fun for me. But hey why would they waste a perfect excuse to get bent out of shape over something so trivial as a game. It's not like the world has any serious issues to be concerned about.  /eyeroll

Ah you're right, please excuse me while I fix the worlds serious issues.  /eyeroll

Originally posted by kadepsyson

Originally posted by zymurgeist

Originally posted by OgreRaper
Heh, I liked Diablo 1 and 2 but have never even played Diablo 3. Heard about the real money auction house before it launched and decided not have any part of that.

 That's OK most of the people bitching up a storm haven't played it recently either. The game isn't perfect but is a lot of fun for me. But hey why would they waste a perfect excuse to get bent out of shape over something so trivial as a game. It's not like the world has any serious issues to be concerned about.  /eyeroll

Ah you're right, please excuse me while I fix the worlds serious issues.  /eyeroll

 If you're not part of the solution.............

Originally posted by zymurgeist

 

If you're "forced" to trade you just suck at the game. I've never had any great  difficulty  doing anything in the game without ever using the auction house. There afre no must have items. You just can't faceroll inferno though.

 

You're right, Diablo 2 also felt a lot tougher on its hardest difficulty setting compared to Diablo 3.

Somehow finding a good item also felt much more exciting in Diablo 2 as well, despite not being allowed to auction it for real money.

Originally posted by kadepsyson

 

Always on DRM?  You mean the stuff that makes it so Diablo 3 cannot be played unless you have internet connection, and the Blizzard servers are on?  How I can't mod the game to extend replayability, or to mess around with LAN friends?  Yeah, that's a great feature too - one that diminishes the game for everyone to prevent something a few might do.

It was merely an example of "new" technology. Keep in mind those sorts of decisions really need to be made during the planning stages and these games have 2-5 year development cycles. As noted in the original thread D3 had 7 I believe. I do agree that always on DRM has its own issues, many of which need to be solved, but attempting to deny that piracy is a problem at all is truly foolish.

Also, with your bit about halfway expensive eve ships you pretty much proved my point more than yours.  You're right, they would be freaking expensive in real money terms to replace.  And not everyone can do that.  Therefore, the ones who can, are paying for an advantage.  BOOM.

Except its not really an advantage. Its no more of an advantage than Multi boxing, or merely spending more time in game. Paying to win is having an advantage that you cannot get in game. This is not buying power, its buying equalization.

I did enjoy how your justification at the end is "Hey we can't stop them from doing stuff we don't like, so we may as well just do it too and profit along the way"

That is not my justification, that is free market economics. Or are you really one of those who refuses to shop at Walmart too?

To me it isn't about rules so much as it is about gameplay being diminished and ethical development.

How is it dimishing gameplay? Its merely another choice for you as a player to make. Unless you really feel that endless grinding is some kind of super rewarding part of the game experience? Also, how is this immoral exactly? Games and game systems change. I am sorry its not D2 with better graphics, but its been designed as intended. It does not make the game bad, it makes the game not for you.

 I don't want to see a point in gaming where there isn't a point in playing anymore when you can unlock and do everything by pressing the "confirm payment" button.  I prefer the system where if you want to gain/unlock/achieve something, you have to do it by playing, not paying.

 Stop playing games for the reward and play them because you enjoy the gameplay perhaps? For every game ever there has been cheat codes, hacks, etc. Much like the piracy you claim that only a few use, many more players employ them than you seem to realize.

It seems like another case of "devs say its good, it must be good!"

No. Its good because its something that the industry needs. The cost of game development has skyrocketed. A single artist easily costs as much as $10k per month in salary and software licenses alone. Many of the players really need to stop looking at the billion dollar a year mark and start actually looking at the net values, cause honestly they are not very high. Especially when you consider the outside investment people who are wanting/expecting a much higher return for their capital. Unless we, the players, really want to see that money go elsewhere these are things that must happen.