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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Will most player even notice if the virtual world is taken away from MMO pve gameplay?

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238 posts found
  Trudge34

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/08/12
Posts: 386

1/22/13 4:37:44 PM#121
Originally posted by Phelcher
WoW does not have more advanced combat mechanics than EverQuest. Not even close, as Blizzard said themselved in WoW beta when beta testers (mostly eq players) were grillimg the devs on WoW's fisher price mechanics.

Blizzard said it was because their a different target audience and they have less character hooks.

Block, dodge, reposte, fear, blind, levitate, magnify, etc... the list goes on and on with the game mechanics that were missing from WoW. Because the game engine didnt support them.

I think a good many forget that eq was skill based too, along with being level based. And the many skills each class had made for dynamic play.

I was thinking the same thing about EQ's combat. Individually, yeah, WoW's combat may seem more advanced. You play a warrior, rogue, wizard, cleric it seems very simple. But where the complexity comes is in the group dynamics of each class working together. We've put together some very interesting groups that were very unorthodox ways of killing and getting exp. There was a trinity, but that was just like min / maxing. Not totally needed but it was most efficient.

Played: EQ1 (10 Years), Guild Wars, Rift, TERA
Tried: EQ2, Vanguard, Lord of the Rings Online, Dungeons and Dragons Online, Runes of Magic and countless others...
Currently Playing: GW2

Nytlok Sylas
80 Sylvari Ranger

  Phelcher

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/01/09
Posts: 1133

1/22/13 4:57:35 PM#122
Most who do looby style games, do so because they are bored with the game, but still enjoy the incertainty of combat.. Or, the game itself is boring and lobby os the only thing phun left to do.

Either way, it is no phun to play a lobby game you are paying for, so most games turned into ftp, because most turned into lobby games.

Point is.. any lobby game now is not worth noting, as it's already dieing or dead.

"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."


-Nariusseldon

  Aelious

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/27/11
Posts: 2258

World > Quest Progression

1/22/13 5:19:05 PM#123
I think most would just like they would in the real world. Knowing there is a big world with others running around out there is far different than getting put into a personal instance. I think that's why a lot of people play MMOs in the first place.

Using WoW is a great example of how a persistent world is important. Blizzard had spent a lot of time and money making said persistent world better. As to how many people are standing around waiting for a dungeon to pop are numbers only Blizzard is going to know. Since that same entity had invested in persistent world changes I can only assume that not enough players think it's useless.
  sunshadow21

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/15/04
Posts: 332

1/22/13 9:26:18 PM#124
Originally posted by Jaedor

 


Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by bunnyhopper Yes they will. Next!
How? When? Certainly not when they are in a city waiting for a dungeon to pop, or in that dungeon doing a 5-man run.

 

Narius, not everyone hangs out in cities waiting on the next dungeon run or skraid. All those folks would notice.

But how many would really care if they were able to do the same solo activitives in a private instance while waiting for the group instances? That, I believe is the real question here. How important in the persistant world part in some of the current crop of themepark games? I would guess that most posters here would say very, but I question how indicative that is of the population as a whole. I'd be willing to bet that for the majority of people, you could place them in a well done instance, and they would not notice a difference. I'm not saying I want games that do that, but that is a reality that I have come to accept, and a major reason that I've gotten very picky about the games I show interest in.

  laokoko

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/14/09
Posts: 1845

1/23/13 12:26:25 AM#125
Originally posted by Phelcher
Most who do looby style games, do so because they are bored with the game, but still enjoy the incertainty of combat.. Or, the game itself is boring and lobby os the only thing phun left to do.

Either way, it is no phun to play a lobby game you are paying for, so most games turned into ftp, because most turned into lobby games.

Point is.. any lobby game now is not worth noting, as it's already dieing or dead.

Ya I mean all those virtual world game are doing much better.

That is why currently the mmorpg market are full with those virtual world games everyone love and play.

  RefMinor

Novice Member

Joined: 7/16/11
Posts: 3539

Hipster

1/23/13 1:28:43 AM#126
Originally posted by laokoko
Originally posted by Phelcher
Most who do looby style games, do so because they are bored with the game, but still enjoy the incertainty of combat.. Or, the game itself is boring and lobby os the only thing phun left to do.

Either way, it is no phun to play a lobby game you are paying for, so most games turned into ftp, because most turned into lobby games.

Point is.. any lobby game now is not worth noting, as it's already dieing or dead.

Ya I mean all those virtual world game are doing much better.

That is why currently the mmorpg market are full with those virtual world games everyone love and play.

They are coming.

  jimdandy26

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/28/12
Posts: 559

1/23/13 1:36:55 AM#127
Originally posted by RefMinor
Originally posted by laokoko
Originally posted by Phelcher
Most who do looby style games, do so because they are bored with the game, but still enjoy the incertainty of combat.. Or, the game itself is boring and lobby os the only thing phun left to do.

Either way, it is no phun to play a lobby game you are paying for, so most games turned into ftp, because most turned into lobby games.

Point is.. any lobby game now is not worth noting, as it's already dieing or dead.

Ya I mean all those virtual world game are doing much better.

That is why currently the mmorpg market are full with those virtual world games everyone love and play.

They are coming.

To fall into the very same "themepark trap". I really cannot wait for the excuses to come rolling in from the sandbox crowd when they fail just as spectacularly.

I did battle with ignorance today, and ignorance won.

To exercise power costs effort and demands courage. That is why so many fail to assert rights to which they are perfectly entitled - because a right is a kind of power but they are too lazy or too cowardly to exercise it. The virtues which cloak these faults are called patience and forbearance.

  Banaghran

Novice Member

Joined: 1/17/12
Posts: 872

1/23/13 2:02:24 AM#128
Originally posted by jimdandy26

Not really, because those were the only meaningful choices you had at that point anyway. You really did not lose anything from the skill trees, they just gave them to you anyway.

I do get where you are coming from to an extent, but especially from a designers perspective the game is much more complicated now than it was at release. The player base through osmosis is much less ignorant now than it was then for starters. Itemization has many more choices to it, and rotation has changed dramatically. I know my first 4 years of WoW all I had as a raiding warlock was spam shadowbolt, which kinda sucked balls honestly.

Hmm, what things do you feel are more complicated? The 10 classes with replaceable (interchangeable) raid wide buffs? The skill trees that have a x% dps tagged along per skill point? Do we still have playstyle changing sets?

Most of things that were done in the last 6 years have made the game more simple to balance, mantain and design, even those valkyries from the legendary had a X dps number tagged on them that was not allowed to overshadow other choices too much.

Rotation has changed, but also dps expectation (bb endless mana advantage) and interesting synergies.

Quid pro quo.

Flame on!

:)

  laokoko

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/14/09
Posts: 1845

1/23/13 2:22:51 AM#129

You know what I hate about mmorpg game design in general?

Balance, reward, and not enough random.

Why does the game have to be balance.  Why is everyone a jedi.  And why do everyone can do what they want to do.

That is what really make a virtual world isn't it?  Not everyone can be anything they want to be.  Why is there a quest for everyone to be a jedi.  Maybe only a few people can be a jedi.

Why is pvp balanced.  There  is this commander from another faction and he is as strong as everyone else.  Isn't commander suppose to be stronger?

Why is everyone a blacksmith if they want to be a blacksmith.  Maybe some of they are just not skilled enough to be a blacksmith.

People keep talking about "vitual world" and exploring and living in it.  But take away pvp, what is there really to explore if you already been there before.

  Fdzzaigl

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/22/09
Posts: 1847

1/23/13 2:36:10 AM#130
Originally posted by Aeonblades
Originally posted by XAPGames

Yeah, they would notice.  Just look at all the threads of people complaining about empty overland zones indicating that a game is dead.

 

It's a paradox.  They might not want to play with others, but they like having them around.

 

This. If the world seems empty, it doesn't seem like a world anymore to most.

I think that really depends on the game, it isn't so much of a paradox.

Take people complaining about empty zones in GW2: why do they find the zones empty? It's because there are not enough people to get the event trains going in the mid-level zones (on some servers). So they complain because the content has a certain number of people in mind who should be participating, but there are too few people actually there.

On the other hand, you might have a game with a massive and mostly empty open world where people are content to roam on their own, because the content is aimed toward just doing exploration, finding resources, or doing other stuff that is viable on your own.

In other words, how lonely people feel also depends on how much they need the other players to get the most of the content. Apart from communication of course.

  HeroEvermore

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/07/09
Posts: 692

Banned 18 times and counting.

1/23/13 2:41:09 AM#131
Originally posted by Grixxitt
Narius, I'm starting to think you get paid by a MOBA collective to do your best in making sure that future MMORPGs are absolute shit

Lol 4 realz. this guy has the lamest ideas ever. So glad hes not a game developer.

I learned how to block people. Hes my first. Guy just makes troll comments to keep up his silly online rank.

Hero Evermore
Guild Master of Dragonspine since 1982.
Playing Path of Exile and deeply in love with it.

  Scot

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/10/03
Posts: 4741

1/23/13 3:01:58 AM#132

(Scot's toon looks around a game lobby the size of this post box)

- Yep, think I would notice.

  fivoroth

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 11/10/06
Posts: 2432

1/23/13 3:06:00 AM#133

Will most players even notice if the virtual world is take anway from MMO pve gameplay? 

Of course they will. Any other questions?

Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.

  MurlockDance

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/20/10
Posts: 1065

1/23/13 3:14:06 AM#134
Originally posted by nariusseldon

These never happen in WOW, DDO, GW1, and many other instanced centric PvE MMOs.

The point of this thread is not what should be the MMO design, but in these specific MMOs, why do we need a world if the experience is the same?

The stuff you talk about .. .like meeting another group in a dungeon .. is just not the gameplay in these MMO i am discussing. So irrelevant.

I would certainly leave WoW if they removed the world zones.

I rarely dungeon run, maybe once a day tops, and I spend most of my time out in the world leveling, exploring, harvesting, collecting pets, talking to people I meet, sometimes grouping up with them, etc. The CRZ helped a lot with this.

Seeing as I usually bump into 10 or more people per zone, I am apparently not the only one who enjoys questing. Whether that is the minority or majority is hard to gauge, because not everyone sitting in Ogr is there waiting for dungeons. People duel there, socialize, check out the AH, craft, etc.

Sorry but lobby games are not equivalent to MMORPGs.

Playing MUDs and MMOs since 1994.

  MurlockDance

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/20/10
Posts: 1065

1/23/13 3:31:09 AM#135
Originally posted by sunshadow21

But how many would really care if they were able to do the same solo activitives in a private instance while waiting for the group instances? That, I believe is the real question here. How important in the persistant world part in some of the current crop of themepark games? I would guess that most posters here would say very, but I question how indicative that is of the population as a whole. I'd be willing to bet that for the majority of people, you could place them in a well done instance, and they would not notice a difference. I'm not saying I want games that do that, but that is a reality that I have come to accept, and a major reason that I've gotten very picky about the games I show interest in.

Just a question but how do you *know* what other people will or will not notice or will or will not care about ? This is just pointless speculation. There is no "reality", because you don't know how people will react to things or what is going on in their heads.

Take ToR for instance: the world areas are more populated than the dungeon runs (flash points). There can be many instances of a place like Balmorra, with 150+ players. The flash points will have 20-30 players in them. As far as I know, ToR is one of the few games that actively shows number of players in a particular dungeon instance.

Remove the ability to group up for heroics and just put people in their own instances would completely ruin that game. I certainly would not want to play it like that. It is much, much funner with other players. Yes, you can play it like a lobby game if you really want to, but you are missing out on 97% of the game. Yes, you can play it entirely solo, but you are missing out on the heroics, which are actually pretty fun.

 

I think you guys are confusing the fact that you can choose to be self-reliant with being forced to be self-reliant. I prefer the former, and I usually choose to hang out with other players since the whole point of MMOs is to be sociable... I certainly would not pay a subscription for a lobby game, and I would not pay 60 dollars for a game like ToR with the entire world part ripped out, or forced to be single player.

 

Playing MUDs and MMOs since 1994.

  sunshadow21

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/15/04
Posts: 332

1/23/13 7:08:34 AM#136
Originally posted by MurlockDance
Originally posted by sunshadow21

But how many would really care if they were able to do the same solo activitives in a private instance while waiting for the group instances? That, I believe is the real question here. How important in the persistant world part in some of the current crop of themepark games? I would guess that most posters here would say very, but I question how indicative that is of the population as a whole. I'd be willing to bet that for the majority of people, you could place them in a well done instance, and they would not notice a difference. I'm not saying I want games that do that, but that is a reality that I have come to accept, and a major reason that I've gotten very picky about the games I show interest in.

Just a question but how do you *know* what other people will or will not notice or will or will not care about ? This is just pointless speculation. There is no "reality", because you don't know how people will react to things or what is going on in their heads.

Take ToR for instance: the world areas are more populated than the dungeon runs (flash points). There can be many instances of a place like Balmorra, with 150+ players. The flash points will have 20-30 players in them. As far as I know, ToR is one of the few games that actively shows number of players in a particular dungeon instance.

Remove the ability to group up for heroics and just put people in their own instances would completely ruin that game. I certainly would not want to play it like that. It is much, much funner with other players. Yes, you can play it like a lobby game if you really want to, but you are missing out on 97% of the game. Yes, you can play it entirely solo, but you are missing out on the heroics, which are actually pretty fun.

 

I think you guys are confusing the fact that you can choose to be self-reliant with being forced to be self-reliant. I prefer the former, and I usually choose to hang out with other players since the whole point of MMOs is to be sociable... I certainly would not pay a subscription for a lobby game, and I would not pay 60 dollars for a game like ToR with the entire world part ripped out, or forced to be single player.

 

Like I said, I would expect most people here to have that view, but if you think that is representative of the the gaming population as a whole, I think you would find that most people don't actually care if it's an open world or an instance, which is why for pve, instances are not going away, and are probably going to be even more common in the future. It's not a game I would play, but most people speak with their wallets, not on the forums, and that response is what devs are going to listen to ultimately; that response, in the recent past, has been bring on the instances, we don't need the open world as long as we get what we want when we want it.

  laokoko

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/14/09
Posts: 1845

1/23/13 8:35:11 AM#137

I never really get why people care that the world is empty. 

I understand for pvp you need people to play with.  But take GW2 for example, who even care if the world is empty or not.  There isn't even much to do in there. 

I mean, most of the dynamic event are soloable.  Those that have champion mob you can just skip it, it is no big deal.  I mean other people play dark fall before, do you ever hear them say, "oh wow, there is a monster I can't kill and no one want to kill it".

And people keep saying exploring.  What is there to explore if you already been to a place.  It is not like some random thing pop up and you get excited.  To me virtual world is boring and unexcited unless it have pvp. 

  Onomas

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/05/11
Posts: 1138

Sandbox is your only hope for a decent mmo ;)

1/23/13 9:48:23 AM#138
Originally posted by sunshadow21
Originally posted by MurlockDance
Originally posted by sunshadow21

But how many would really care if they were able to do the same solo activitives in a private instance while waiting for the group instances? That, I believe is the real question here. How important in the persistant world part in some of the current crop of themepark games? I would guess that most posters here would say very, but I question how indicative that is of the population as a whole. I'd be willing to bet that for the majority of people, you could place them in a well done instance, and they would not notice a difference. I'm not saying I want games that do that, but that is a reality that I have come to accept, and a major reason that I've gotten very picky about the games I show interest in.

Just a question but how do you *know* what other people will or will not notice or will or will not care about ? This is just pointless speculation. There is no "reality", because you don't know how people will react to things or what is going on in their heads.

Take ToR for instance: the world areas are more populated than the dungeon runs (flash points). There can be many instances of a place like Balmorra, with 150+ players. The flash points will have 20-30 players in them. As far as I know, ToR is one of the few games that actively shows number of players in a particular dungeon instance.

Remove the ability to group up for heroics and just put people in their own instances would completely ruin that game. I certainly would not want to play it like that. It is much, much funner with other players. Yes, you can play it like a lobby game if you really want to, but you are missing out on 97% of the game. Yes, you can play it entirely solo, but you are missing out on the heroics, which are actually pretty fun.

 

I think you guys are confusing the fact that you can choose to be self-reliant with being forced to be self-reliant. I prefer the former, and I usually choose to hang out with other players since the whole point of MMOs is to be sociable... I certainly would not pay a subscription for a lobby game, and I would not pay 60 dollars for a game like ToR with the entire world part ripped out, or forced to be single player.

 

Like I said, I would expect most people here to have that view, but if you think that is representative of the the gaming population as a whole, I think you would find that most people don't actually care if it's an open world or an instance, which is why for pve, instances are not going away, and are probably going to be even more common in the future. It's not a game I would play, but most people speak with their wallets, not on the forums, and that response is what devs are going to listen to ultimately; that response, in the recent past, has been bring on the instances, we don't need the open world as long as we get what we want when we want it.

Well they havent really had the option or choice. In the past 5+ years game features have been obmited slowly over time, eye candy and story has been pushed onto gamers, and its faster paced and always being forced down a path. You didnt have the option until recently. With more games with open worlds and sandbox features being released, this will give people the option and choice. Its easy to say oranges are better than apples when all you have in the store are oranges ;)

Many people dont know how to play an open world, they are so use to raids, dailies, dungeons, and instances their creative side has been stripped away over the years. Its all about the "me" and not about the "community" and creating content to take part in.

Open world has many features and benifits over an instanced dungeon. And when you instance a mmo, you take away the mmo part. Then the game becomes no better than a singleplayer game with multiplayer support.

And its always better to have the choice and use of features, even if you dont like them and wont use them. Than to not have the freedom and chance to take part in said feature. Gimped game or fully useable world? I personaly rather have the world, and not wait hours to get into a dungeon or raid. Which many times they have lock out timers. Kind of defeats the purpose to force mmorpg players into a dungeon and have lock outs lol.

 

  rojo6934

Elite Member

Joined: 8/13/09
Posts: 4546

"It is double pleasure to deceive the deceiver". - Niccolo Machiavelli

1/23/13 10:06:30 AM#139

take away the virtual open world and ill stop playing mmos forever.

Some F2P companies are making mmos this way.  Rusty hearts, Vindictus, Dragon nest and C9 are good examples. I would imagine if you ask the companies behind them they will say they had to sacrifice open world to add great character visuals and animations....lack of resources,  which is totaly invalid (im just saying). if they lacked resources they wouldnt have other open world mmos in the first place. Thats the only reason (the only one) why i dont play those games i mentioned. Leave the city lobbies for your typical team deathmatch shooter. If your not gonna make an open world mmo and improve on whats being done already, then leave the genre alone.

limiting open gameplay to city lobbies in an mmorpg is pure lazy and should not be accepted.

So yeah, OP, thats what i think of city lobbie games that try to invade the mmo scene. They are not mmos and should not be considered among them. They work well as (in game dungeons) within an mmorpg or a coop online like GW1, not as a stand alone ¨mmo¨

"in peace, in sleep under the barren, abandoned soil"

  darkhalf357x

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/25/12
Posts: 1041

I'm only playing the role chosen for me. Who you supposed to be?

1/23/13 10:40:31 AM#140

I would notice.  It would affect my experience.  I dont sit in major cities waiting for LFG or LFR.  In WoW I am typically out questing, fishing, doing archeaology, collecting pets, harvesting nodes, etc.  I LIKE being out in the world doing stuff -- its just convenient to have a LFG timer ticking in the background.  The timer pops I hit the dungeon and when its over I can continue what Im doing.

I'd be very bored if I had to sit in a single area and just wait.  Wasnt that why the LFG tool was created?  So you COULD do other stuff instead of waiting?

If I just had a lobby I'd play something else.

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