Originally posted by Beatnik59

This is a good thread, TheScavenger.

This kind of fear and loathing we see is unique to MMOs.  Yes, you have rivalries between Call of Duty fans and Battlefield fans.  You have rivalries between Torchlight fans and Diablo fans.  But these sort of rivalries don't match the kind of cruelty and malice we level against other games and other fans here.

I was really struck at the kind of malice levelled at the CoH fans after their game shut down.  The amazing thing about it was how many people who never played CoH and had no stake in the closure came out defending NCSoft's decision, or trying to justify the decision.

First of all, why is it important that this publisher's decision needed to be respected?  Secondly, why did they feel obligated to defend a multi-million dollar publishing conglomerate against a bunch of fans?  Fans who just had their fun ripped out from under them?

All the responses here are reasonable ones, but I am of the opinion that our enjoyment of MMO shutdowns is not natural reaction.  I don't feel this is something akin to taunting, or juvenile one-upmanship.  I don't think it can be explained in rational terms, like the desire to see better games, or the desire to see bad games end.  No, I think the posters here give us too much credit.

There is no rational justification for taking pleasure in the closure of a game not played.  There may be a "hope" that the closure will create something better, but certainly no guarantee.  Why do we get so emotionally vested in these games that we feel we have a stake in another game's demise?  What created such strange feelings in such an otherwise agreeable group?

At the heart of this business is extortion: deliver more bodies and wallets to us, or we'll take away all the good things you enjoy.  Your own wallet and your own body isn't enough.  And while the publishers will never tell you how much money they need, or how many bodies must be served, we are held accountable whenever the money and bodies get too low.

Hence, we are always playing in a state of panic: "will all my friends, all my accomplishments, all the costumes I bought in the item store, all my characters whom I loved, will they be taken from me tomorrow?"  You don't know...you can't know.  All you know is that your continued enjoyment is dependent on whether your publisher likes you.

As a result, we do our best to ensure the safety of the things we love.  We know how the business works.  Players only ever invest time and money in one MMO at a time.  The MMO business is a zero-sum game, like Myria said: in order for one MMO to win subscribers, another one has to lose subscribers.   And so, we delight in games when they fail, because it allows us a chance to say "our game is better," giving us hope that some of those players will help float our games.

Even if they don't float our games, it gives us an opportunity to say, "that game shut down because the loser community let it fail.  If there was any love there, it would have succeeded," as if this was a natural law.  We call the former players "yesterday's men" who played "yesterday's game" as a way to say to ourselves "we are tommorrow's men" playing "tomorrow's game."  Because we want to believe that our love, the meaning we get from playing these games regularly, will be enough to keep them going the next day.

But, alas, even that sounds a bit too rational.

Frankly, I think the pleasure we get from is a kind of perverse reaction to abuse, similar to Stockholm syndrome.  I think the very nature of the MMO business itself creates this perverse pleasure.  And the reason it does is because the entire MMO industry exercises a power over us that no other fully legitimate industry really does.

I said "fully" legitimate, because there are several quasi-legitimate and illegitimate industries that illicit this type of perverse reaction.  Prostitution is one.  Drugs are another.  Gambling is a third.  Any industry that has the power to admit or withold pleasure can illicit this reaction.  And because the good things we get from MMOs can be taken away from us without warning or cause, it creates madmen out of all of us, who are desperately looking for meaning when tragedy strikes.

It says quite a lot when I find the Sonic fandom more agreeable, less hypocritical, and overall less savage than the MMO guys.

Originally posted by Crazy_Stick
Its a negative part of human nature and enjoyed for the same reason people enjoy seeing those they dislike suffer or have hard times. Vicariously, it makes them feel better about themselves and their choices. The germans even have a word for it: Schadenfreude.

OP, this is your answer.

Originally posted by TheScavenger

It doesn't make sense. And it is a growing problem... 

So again...why do "some" people find enjoyment in a MMO being closed or doing badly?

 The REAL question is WHO is really the ones enjoying it?

Funny thing is that I see repeated continually is this.

Game is released, everyone is enjoying the game. Time goes by, players find issues. Players that found issues talk about the issues, rampant foaming at the mouth players who havent defend defend defend and do everything they can to shut the others down. Players trying to speak becomes frustraited, posts more to try to get a response from the company, the defenders turn into full fledge super fanboy, continue to defend while then trolling to get the others banned or have the threads shutdown.

Players start to leave the game. More players then start having issues with the game, repeat above.

Now players are having issues with finding people to play with because so many leave, now they are the bad guys, fanboys turn on them.

Suddenly the game is doing really bad, the company has no idea why so many left and has done nothing to fix the problems...time to go F2P to try to save the game.

The company can have HORRIBLE revenue reports, fire massive amounts of people SEVERAL TIMES, merge servers, go F2P, still have bad revenue...and the fanboys will still say nothing is wrong with the game and do what they were doing right from the start...shutting people down.

So now, the original players that wanted to talk shortly after release are now saying, SEE, if we had been listened to from the start the game wouldnt have gotten to this point, are so SICK of the fanboys...yeah, they may smile when that game dies...not that the GAME died, that the fanboys dont have it anymore because THEY HELPED MAKE IT STAY THAT WAY!

But, the question is, these same fanboys tell us that we shouldnt say anything, either like the game or leave, and they do it for EVERY MMO they play...so, who really is enjoying the deaths of MMOs? It sounds more like its those telling us not to speak, and allow bad games to remain so and never improve...

Originally posted by Volgore
Because watching Funcom going down the drain is the only entertainment i get for the 50eur which i gave to them buying AoC on what Ellingsen, Godager and Thorvaldsen lied to me.

expanding on this...

-that's all the entertainment we can get out of an mmo we don't play

Originally posted by Raithe-Nor

Originally posted by Beatnik59

 What created such strange feelings in such an otherwise agreeable group?

I really couldn't disagree more with your entire post, but I think if I dispell this one particular myth, you have a better chance of getting a glimpse of what is really going on.

We are NOT an agreeable group.  That is why people relish the demise of each other's MMOs.  The RPers love it when MMO X fails because it failed to protect roleplaying.  The powergamers relish it when MMO Y fails because they didn't provide enough endgame raid content and vertical gear and power progression.  The explorers relish it when MMO Z fails because they didn't provide an open world with lots of lore to follow and deep, dark places to delve.  So on and so forth.

It isn't because of addiction, or even lack of perspective.  It's because the perspective is perfectly clear and wafting directly before our eyes.  The developers chose to cater to some other audience at the expense of the one in which we (individually) reside.

And most of the time they are ELIMINATING all audiences, rather than including any.

There is no other industry more worthy of failure.

I agree with your points but disagree on the conclusion. 

"We are NOT an agreeable group.  That is why people relish the demise of each other's MMOs.  The RPers love it when MMO X fails because it failed to protect roleplaying.  The powergamers relish it when MMO Y fails because they didn't provide enough endgame raid content and vertical gear and power progression.  The explorers relish it when MMO Z fails because they didn't provide an open world with lots of lore to follow and deep, dark places to delve.  So on and so forth."

That level of division is the result of MMO being more of a platform than any one specific genre of games. With shooters, you may have CoD vs Halo vs TF2 etc. With RPGs you may have Elder Scrolls vs Fallout vs Final Fantasy. Now, what if you put the RPGers and the shooter fans in the same group? Well, when a player skill based game comes out, one group hates it and the other dissects it. When a character skill game comes out, the groups switch roles.

MMO, as a gaming platform, offers a wide spectrum of gameplay, so in a place like MMORPG.com or the old VNBoards, you have very diverse set of conflicting interst groups. In such a scenario, you go beyond rivalry because there is far less in common between the groups. The primary cause of this is 'MMO' being universally viewed as a genre, so the expectations are that each game would or should fit within one's personal definition of the genre. 

Originally posted by Raithe-Nor

Originally posted by Beatnik59

 What created such strange feelings in such an otherwise agreeable group?

I really couldn't disagree more with your entire post, but I think if I dispell this one particular myth, you have a better chance of getting a glimpse of what is really going on.

We are NOT an agreeable group.  That is why people relish the demise of each other's MMOs.  The RPers love it when MMO X fails because it failed to protect roleplaying.  The powergamers relish it when MMO Y fails because they didn't provide enough endgame raid content and vertical gear and power progression.  The explorers relish it when MMO Z fails because they didn't provide an open world with lots of lore to follow and deep, dark places to delve.  So on and so forth.

It isn't because of addiction, or even lack of perspective.  It's because the perspective is perfectly clear and wafting directly before our eyes.  The developers chose to cater to some other audience at the expense of the one in which we (individually) reside.

And most of the time they are ELIMINATING all audiences, rather than including any.

There is no other industry more worthy of failure.

Maybe it was the extortive nature of the business that made us this way.

Or maybe we are, like you said, NOT an agreeable group, and we deserve no better from the industry.

Either way, I agree that "there is no other industry more worthy of failure."

This has been a really interesting read, thus far. While there was a lot to go through, this has made for a really fascinating discussion.

Rather tame too, nothings gotten out of hand. Quite often threads end up in flame wars, and then it goes a whole diff path.

Now for the thread itself...

It does seem like it is only the MMO genre that this happens in, besides the mentioned CoD vs Battlefield, but thats different. Though I guess in other genres, there may be more choice. Well there isn't that much choice either to be honest...its almost all linear storytelling. Very few games like Far Cry 3 (very rare for a FPS to be open world), Elder Scrolls and Fallout...but the point is, even if the various genres are rather dead for open world games, people don't really go around wishing other games dead.

Here is a quote in this thread (and as a sidenote, Beatnik59...that was quite the post you made):

----------------

Originally posted by Crazy_Stick
Its a negative part of human nature and enjoyed for the same reason people enjoy seeing those they dislike suffer or have hard times. Vicariously, it makes them feel better about themselves and their choices. The germans even have a word for it: Schadenfreude.

-----------------

Guess this may explain a lot of it. Even happens in the real world though, with bullies and what not.

As for Beatnik59's post. Yeah I remember everyone cheering City of Heroes dead and actually defending its death (I know you posted a lot more, but that kind of stuck out to me). Even if they never played (or probably in many cases, never even heard of CoH). Rather scary to be honest.

I only ever enjoyed seeing Warhammer Online fail, strictly because a friend of mine was VERY LOUD in his assertions that WAR will most definitely kill WOW, and anyone who doesn't *know* that is an idiot.

I still laugh at him in regards to WAR, and to a lesser extent AOC (for which he made similair claims).

At the moment, he's touting GW2 as the WOW killer and am very anxious to see the Feb. Q4 Blizzard report, so I can shut him up *yet again*.

Besides this, I have no reason to feel joy when someone or something fails.

Trying to apply logic to something that inherently has no logic is like trying to get a serial killer to explain why he kills people.  You're not going to get the answer that you are looking for. 

"Oh I kill people who wear black socks on Tuesday that also happen to have a latte in their hands."  

Of course!  Makes perfect sense.  People really should avoid wearing black socks on Tuesdays or abstain from lattes.  I understand fully.  It was their fault.  It's a wonder more people aren't killed.

Originally posted by Warmaker

Let me get this out there.

I'm pretty sure I'm the only one on these boards that hopes for the equivalent of a "Dinosaur Killing Meteor" to hit the MMORPG genre.  IMO, it's still stuffering from the illness of developers constantly trying (and failing) to chase WoW's success.  Modern, traditional MMORPGs in general are still being compared to how close they are with WoW.  This is most especially so with big-name releases.  I still think developers are funelling into the same path of development.  Very few dare to be different, and if they are they will not get the big bucks to go on.

SWTOR, by far and easily the biggest MMORPG title in quite a number of years, is about as blatantly uninsipired in MMORPG game design as you can get, despite the fantastic "Star Wars" license and the insane amount of money thrown towards development.  It is the shiniest, easiest example of uninspired design.  You had BioWare... BioWare, of all development houses, openly saying that to defy WoW's design is stupidity.  If there was a title that in alot of years could have really been something, it was SWTOR.  It had "Star Wars."  It had BioWare, the dev house behind KOTOR1.  It had BioWare's reputation to potentially do what they want, because it was BioWare.  It had a healthy amount of time and insane money for development.  And the end result is what is out there now...

You have a disastrous example of an MMORPG that, IMO, truly had a chance to shake the foundations of the MMORPG genre and realign the power structure.  And it proudly settled on being mediocre and uninspired in its design.  And it wasn't the first to do so and it will not be the last.  And it's been going on since about 2004-2005.

A fine justification for that nice Meteor to hit.  Maybe there'll be better diversity afterwards for whatever comes out of the ashes.

Believe me you are not the only one who thinks this way. It is a natural evolution in a punctuated equilibrium. It is kind of social darwinism like when the Dinosaurs went extinct it opened the door for the rise of mamals. There were mamals in the dinosaur age but they were the low man on the totem pole. The mamals needed that meteor strike to wipe the dinosaures out so they could move up the food chain. Same process in nature works in business as well as video games. Creative destruction is why capitalism has booms and busts. When Henry Ford built cars the buggy whip makers went under.

I have read the entire thread but am surprised no one brought up the great video game crash of 1983. That was the year Atari went bankrupt. Atari had been around since the 70s and by the early 80s they were making more money than ever but their technology and games were outdated and stale. They were dinosaurs waiting to go exinct. The extiction event came in the form of a game based on the movie ET. It wasn't a bad game it had the same features all the old atari games had (basically a Pac-man clone with some add ons) and was based on a major hollywood IP. How could it not make money? Well the Atari fanbase balked and said it was the same old same old that Atari had been feeding them for 7 years. The people wanted something new and the teardown mentality prevailed. Millions of unsold ET games were burried in a landfill and Atari had to declare bankruptsy. With Atari out of the way it opened the doors of the American market to Japanese imported Nintendo and Sega. A new golden age of video games began.

Same thing has to happen with MMORPGs at this point. The current batch of game makers are too set in their ways to ever change. Now with 8 years of WoW clones it is time for a teardown. There will be a bust and not much made but on the other side of the bust there will be a new golden age.

Originally posted by Quizzical
If a game is highly successful, then there are likely to be many efforts at copying it.  You want that to happen to games you like, not games you hate.

Hoping that a game you dont like wont become the next Wow is actually rather normal, enjoying that games that aint your type will close down is en etirely different matter.

Some of our fellow gamers do enjoy those games and if they close down they will be sad = bad.

I can't say I enjoy watching games die per se, but I do find it pleasing if bad design and unprofessional behavior aren't rewarded. So if a bunch of amateur devs release an inferior game and then treat their customers like crap, I find some pleasure in watching them reap what they sow.

The same goes for overhyped, sub par AAA products that crash and burn 6 months after release btw. I just love it when huge corps and pompous, self-important devs have to eat their words because they couldn't understand what people actually enjoy in an MMO.

Sometimes I just really don't care if a MMO dies these are my reasons.

Tera, I told the developers of this game they shouldn't charge for Cosmetic changes on top of a subscription they did it anyways they refused to fix UI bugs during Beta, they did badly they lost too many subscribers I laughed because of their failure.

The devs had the sugguestions I gave them, they didn't listen to the community they got what was coming now they going F2P.

The Secret World.

Its a good game, but again they failed because of lack of customization and immediately charging for costumes, I refuse to play this due to lack of customization, its a good game just like Tera it has potential but isn't what I am looking for, I gave the developers the way to go since beta to attract people into the game, they didn't listen on release.

APB Reloaded,

Is another game with potential but Hackers, making the game pay 2 win drove me away from the game again refusing to listen to players and what was said.

SWTOR

Is a touchy situation because of StarWars Fans, I love StarWars, but I think EA, Bioware, Enmasse, Gamers First, Nexon, And Perfect World are all fail companies they don't listen to what players ask even in beta when they could polish before release.

I like SWTOR but I refuse to play because as a subscriber they do not give me many perks at all, and on top of that it lacks the customization I look for.

To be honest Defiance Based on the official videos  with some improvements to the gameplay it could cause a loss of subscriptions or customers from games like TSW, Fallen Earth, APB, and I could careless if these companies go down the drain or not that is what happens when they don't listen.

Every MMO has had its chance to make it a good MMO depending ob budget I know that MMO's take a lot of hard work to develop, but a MMO like Age OF Conan for example had so much potential until I played the game and found out armors covered everything lack of customization its AD of being a Sexy Brutal killer MMORPG was really click target and boring combat to me too.

I respect the artists, and people who compose, and make music for MMO's the problem is the companies ability to lead and make the decisions after the game is actually made companies who make poor decisions and choices games like APB Reloaded with lots of customers lost. In general I am the kind of person with the right dev team who could actually make a game like APB reloaded fun again and make people actually feel like playing again, but gamers first has ruined that game so much if I had the money to actually hire a team, and buy the IP rights for the game I would do it and revert back to the original game that RTW released and start working from there, I bet that more people would actually be playing the game than what currently play now.

RTW was doing a good job when they made the game, but from what I know lack of funds killed the game yes they needed to improve, and yes Hackers ruined it but excluding hackers They had the right ideas in mind G1 destroyed what they created.

So when a company does bad and sinks down the drain all I usually do is a big I told you so thought and laugh nothing more its all about keeping your customers happy and people playing and wanting to spend money not complaing and not wanting to spend.

With an honest opinion.

Every since F2P MMO's have been released in the U.S the MMO industry has been flooded with a bunch of FAIL MMORPG games, Nexon for example and vindictus not making the right choices game started out decent I loved it but it took them months after releaes to fix the market lag bug, and they made it pay 2 enjoy, and Perfect World MMO's seriously The Trashy MMO's and companies need to die off, and New MMORPG's need to take place in the Genre with good strong dev teams and people who have common sense enough to make profit, and keep the consumers happy and playing.  I have done an experiment with this in a Mini MMO in Second Life, the more people who were happy the more money I was getting from the game.

Besides Trolls the current best MMORPG's, or RTS titles.

1. Eve Online

2. League OF Legends

If you can avoid the trolls in league its a great game you have to play among friends and clan though.

Because gamers tend to be self-enttiled, self-important, ignorant idiots that feel the need to mark their superiority through their game choice. It's harsh, but sadly true in so many situations. 

Why LoL fans hate DoTA fans and vice versa? Why CoD fans hate BF fans, and vice versa? Why Xbox owneers hate on Playstation and vice versa? All the very same reasons really. 

Whenever a game you don't like fails you can always rush to the forums and post a thread saying the "I told you so!" or "If only they'd listen to ME!" crap and let others bask in the warming light of your glory... yeah, except no one gives a damn. It's actually worse than the bashing that goes around when it comes to choice of music. 

Any game, any company, failing, is never a good thing for the health of industry, and innovation is not attained by building something from scratch, innovation is all about itteration, just like evolution in nature. You don't create something completley new whenever the old design didn't work as expected, you try to improve the bad points, one by one, until it works. 

The only exception are scams, but that's not even about game design, but about how the company treats it's customers (see - the WarZ drama) , and those things need to be called out loud and clear. 

I wonder what OP means when wrote "some" people?=P

I'm glad if bad game, scamming game and other fail can be cleaned from game lists, so others can't pick it up and get disappointed.

If it makes me looking like a troll, I don't care, you can continue play shhh and even eat it if you like. =D

But sorry I never call smelly stuff rose.=D