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Guild Wars 2

Guild Wars 2 

General Discussion  » How bad is the "dead mid-level zones" problem?

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139 posts found
  Bladestrom

Elite Member

Joined: 4/04/11
Posts: 3100

1/18/13 6:29:05 PM#121
Couple things that could maybe increase mid zonelife more : better rewards (incoming I believe), de branching that leads to ultra tough champions that have a chance to drop new skills. Introduce hundreds of new skills and get a gw1 feel about builds.

rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW (9500 hrs on main mage)> oblivion > LOTR (480 Hunter) > Rift (230 hours mage) > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(850 elementalist)

Now playing GW2/vanilla wow

  Zorgo

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/05/05
Posts: 2188

Who did wrong? The advertiser hired to sell the game or the consumer who put faith in advertising?

1/18/13 6:58:14 PM#122
Originally posted by fiontar
Originally posted by Quizzical
Originally posted by kitarad
When you fly in WoW that is a loading screen ? Have you even played WoW ? You can walk that distance and there is not one loading screen in between and that flight is over area and there is not I repeat IS NOT a loading screen unless it is between continents. The vessel between continents is the zeppelin and not the bat or griffin rides those are over area you can traverse by foot or horse/warg or whateevr mount. Come on Kalimdor and the other continent whose name escapes me where huge and much larger than one zone in GW 2. Please do not try to dissemble.

While gryphon rides and so forth aren't exactly loading screens, they serve the same function as loading screens.  They force you on a particular route so that the game knows exactly what textures and models you will need loaded far ahead of time, and then can spend the route loading them and have all of the ones you need for the area when you land loaded when you get there.

I agree with Quizzical. It might as well be a really, really long loading screen. I think some of the longest flightpaths were close to 15 minutes of flight! People complain about 10 second load screens, try maintaining your patience when you have an hour to play WoW and it takes 15 minutes to fly to the zone you intend to play in!

Flight paths weren't there for immersion in WoW, they were there as time sinks.

GW2 isn't a subscription game and thus has no need for time sinks.

As stated earlier, this only applies to WoW pre-Cataclysm. You can fly anywhere you want with your own mount in Azeroth now. You are not set to the pinch points or the fly paths. 

  User Deleted
1/18/13 7:07:25 PM#123
Originally posted by Quizzical
The problem is that you simply can't make the rewards comparable for everything.  Some things will inevitably give greater rewards than others, and players will figure it out.  You can nerf the rewards on what everyone is doing or increase the rewards of stuff that is mostly neglected, but that will merely change which particular content gives the best rewards.  If you're relying on rewards to get players to do content, you're never going to get anywhere near an equitable distribution of players.

Yeah I think that is why they are taking the daily achievement path of funneling players to various areas.

If you make a low level area give constantly good rewards, players will just exploit it since exotic geared 80s can destroy low level content.

  User Deleted
1/18/13 7:14:07 PM#124
Originally posted by jpnz
Originally posted by fiontar
 

GW2 zones are large enough, content rich enough and detailed enough that you can spend 6-12 hours in a single zone. I've been working on world completion the past two weeks at a non-rushed pace and I hit a zone portal about every other day. Sorry, but that isn't immersion killing in any way, shape or form.

I also prefer GW2s way point system. 5-15 minute flightpaths in WoW was never my idea of fun and seeing the ugly "seams" where the patchwork of zone designs fit together wasn't very conducive for immersion.

Essentially you travelling from a boxed area to the next boxed area but in GW2 you get loading screens (and the portal) that makes that restrictive feeling even worse.

Like I said, the whole thing is just;

One loading screen for 1-15 area!

One loading screen for 15-30 area!

It just doesn't give that whole 'large world' vibe. I can understand why ANet decided to up the graphics rather than have a large open world but I would have preferred it the other way around.

 

Last I checked, I can still walk / ride / fly from one end of the continent to the next in WoW. You can't in GW2 cause you are essentially travelling from one box to the next.

 You could say the same thing for WoW really.

One loading screen for 1-30! Switch to the other continent.

One loading screen for 30-60! Go to Outworld.

One loading screen for 60-70! Go to Frozen Tundra.

One loading screen for 70-80! Go to Pandaria.

One loading screen for 80-90!

How does that give a better impression than GW2? One zone in GW2 is almost the size of half a WoW continent anyway, and filled with much better textures. If you tried to do WoW style zone layering in GW2, you would end up with zoneline lag like in Vanguard. Basically its give and take, if you want a highly detailed world, you need to have zonelines. Vanguard tried to do away with zonelines and it ended up as a mess, walking over those chunk lines is far more immersion breaking than any loading screen I have ever seen.  

  Quizzical

Guide

Joined: 12/11/08
Posts: 13114

 
OP  1/18/13 7:49:19 PM#125
Originally posted by Zorgo
Originally posted by Quizzical
Originally posted by kitarad
When you fly in WoW that is a loading screen ? Have you even played WoW ? You can walk that distance and there is not one loading screen in between and that flight is over area and there is not I repeat IS NOT a loading screen unless it is between continents. The vessel between continents is the zeppelin and not the bat or griffin rides those are over area you can traverse by foot or horse/warg or whateevr mount. Come on Kalimdor and the other continent whose name escapes me where huge and much larger than one zone in GW 2. Please do not try to dissemble.

While gryphon rides and so forth aren't exactly loading screens, they serve the same function as loading screens.  They force you on a particular route so that the game knows exactly what textures and models you will need loaded far ahead of time, and then can spend the route loading them and have all of the ones you need for the area when you land loaded when you get there.

The individual continents are non-instanced; the gryphon rides used to be the only way around, and thus you would be under the constraints you listed, but they re-designed the world with Cataclysm and you can take your own personal mount, not on a flight path and fly from zone to zone, not using pre-set paths, but however you want to fly there.

Not trying to detract from your statement; WoW is still heavily instanced, but the 'world' in large part, is not.

In which case, you still have the large barren area between zones that also serves exactly the same function as loading screens:  an area where it isn't necessary to have much loaded that takes a while to pass through, in order to give your computer time to load the next zone.

Choosing between that and actual loading screens is still a matter of pros and cons.  If you have to ride through a vast empty area to get where you're going, it takes however long it takes, and they'll try to make it take long enough that nearly everyone can load everything on time to avoid graphical artifacts.  If you've got a faster computer (i.e., if you have an SSD), then you still have to take as long to get to the next zone as someone on a badly fragmented 5400 RPM hard drive.  A loading screen would let you through a lot faster.

On the other hand, if you change your mind and decide to double back, the seamless approach means you don't have to sit through two loading screens to do it.  And not having the loading screens does give a feel of the world being more connected, rather than a bunch of places that have nothing to do with each other.

  Quizzical

Guide

Joined: 12/11/08
Posts: 13114

 
OP  1/18/13 7:54:43 PM#126
Originally posted by Zorgo
Originally posted by fiontar
Originally posted by Quizzical
Originally posted by kitarad
When you fly in WoW that is a loading screen ? Have you even played WoW ? You can walk that distance and there is not one loading screen in between and that flight is over area and there is not I repeat IS NOT a loading screen unless it is between continents. The vessel between continents is the zeppelin and not the bat or griffin rides those are over area you can traverse by foot or horse/warg or whateevr mount. Come on Kalimdor and the other continent whose name escapes me where huge and much larger than one zone in GW 2. Please do not try to dissemble.

While gryphon rides and so forth aren't exactly loading screens, they serve the same function as loading screens.  They force you on a particular route so that the game knows exactly what textures and models you will need loaded far ahead of time, and then can spend the route loading them and have all of the ones you need for the area when you land loaded when you get there.

I agree with Quizzical. It might as well be a really, really long loading screen. I think some of the longest flightpaths were close to 15 minutes of flight! People complain about 10 second load screens, try maintaining your patience when you have an hour to play WoW and it takes 15 minutes to fly to the zone you intend to play in!

Flight paths weren't there for immersion in WoW, they were there as time sinks.

GW2 isn't a subscription game and thus has no need for time sinks.

As stated earlier, this only applies to WoW pre-Cataclysm. You can fly anywhere you want with your own mount in Azeroth now. You are not set to the pinch points or the fly paths. 

But can you fly there faster than a loading screen?  If you're no faster than a flight path, but just get to pick your own custom flight path, it still serves the same function as a loading screen.

  Zorgo

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/05/05
Posts: 2188

Who did wrong? The advertiser hired to sell the game or the consumer who put faith in advertising?

1/18/13 8:41:40 PM#127
Originally posted by Quizzical
Originally posted by Zorgo
Originally posted by fiontar
Originally posted by Quizzical
Originally posted by kitarad
When you fly in WoW that is a loading screen ? Have you even played WoW ? You can walk that distance and there is not one loading screen in between and that flight is over area and there is not I repeat IS NOT a loading screen unless it is between continents. The vessel between continents is the zeppelin and not the bat or griffin rides those are over area you can traverse by foot or horse/warg or whateevr mount. Come on Kalimdor and the other continent whose name escapes me where huge and much larger than one zone in GW 2. Please do not try to dissemble.

While gryphon rides and so forth aren't exactly loading screens, they serve the same function as loading screens.  They force you on a particular route so that the game knows exactly what textures and models you will need loaded far ahead of time, and then can spend the route loading them and have all of the ones you need for the area when you land loaded when you get there.

I agree with Quizzical. It might as well be a really, really long loading screen. I think some of the longest flightpaths were close to 15 minutes of flight! People complain about 10 second load screens, try maintaining your patience when you have an hour to play WoW and it takes 15 minutes to fly to the zone you intend to play in!

Flight paths weren't there for immersion in WoW, they were there as time sinks.

GW2 isn't a subscription game and thus has no need for time sinks.

As stated earlier, this only applies to WoW pre-Cataclysm. You can fly anywhere you want with your own mount in Azeroth now. You are not set to the pinch points or the fly paths. 

But can you fly there faster than a loading screen?  If you're no faster than a flight path, but just get to pick your own custom flight path, it still serves the same function as a loading screen.

I wasn't trying to negate anyone's point, and I'm sorry if I misunderstood. It seemed to me,  from your post and fiontar's post that you were under the impression that the filght paths/pinch points were still the only way to go from zone to zone. 

I can say that there aren't vast areas you have to fly through...but there are generally mountains or some such graphical barrier which I'm sure acts as the 'loading' buffer you are referring to. 

  jpnz

Elite Member

Joined: 6/29/06
Posts: 3461

1/18/13 9:33:02 PM#128
Originally posted by evilastro
 

 You could say the same thing for WoW really.

One loading screen for 1-30! Switch to the other continent.

One loading screen for 30-60! Go to Outworld.

One loading screen for 60-70! Go to Frozen Tundra.

One loading screen for 70-80! Go to Pandaria.

One loading screen for 80-90!

How does that give a better impression than GW2? One zone in GW2 is almost the size of half a WoW continent anyway, and filled with much better textures. If you tried to do WoW style zone layering in GW2, you would end up with zoneline lag like in Vanguard. Basically its give and take, if you want a highly detailed world, you need to have zonelines. Vanguard tried to do away with zonelines and it ended up as a mess, walking over those chunk lines is far more immersion breaking than any loading screen I have ever seen.  

This post is factually false.

Lets break it down shall we?

One zone in GW2 is not half a WoW continent. Anyone that played both can tell you that. But since we are talking 'facts' lets back it up! 

WoW: http://mapwow.com/

GW2: http://gw2cartographers.com/

 

To compare WoW area size and GW2 area size is probably not gonna go 'pro-GW2'; esp when so many people have played both.

Not sure why people are upset though, GW2 loads one area at a time which means players travel from one portal to the next portal. If that is wrong, I'm am surely playing the wrong game.

Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

  A.Blackloch

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/21/07
Posts: 836

"Choke on the smoke from my quill."

1/18/13 9:45:25 PM#129
Originally posted by evilastro

If you tried to do WoW style zone layering in GW2, you would end up with zoneline lag like in Vanguard. Basically its give and take, if you want a highly detailed world, you need to have zonelines. Vanguard tried to do away with zonelines and it ended up as a mess, walking over those chunk lines is far more immersion breaking than any loading screen I have ever seen.  

Oh God the memories! Back then we used to die numerous times due to the "seamless world", when you were traveling through loading area and instantly pulling every mob around you. Good times! :D

  Zorgo

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/05/05
Posts: 2188

Who did wrong? The advertiser hired to sell the game or the consumer who put faith in advertising?

1/19/13 8:11:11 AM#130
Originally posted by Mortemia
Originally posted by evilastro

If you tried to do WoW style zone layering in GW2, you would end up with zoneline lag like in Vanguard. Basically its give and take, if you want a highly detailed world, you need to have zonelines. Vanguard tried to do away with zonelines and it ended up as a mess, walking over those chunk lines is far more immersion breaking than any loading screen I have ever seen.  

Oh God the memories! Back then we used to die numerous times due to the "seamless world", when you were traveling through loading area and instantly pulling every mob around you. Good times! :D

Just fyi, they have fine tuned the chunk lines in VG, they aren't anywhere close to what it was like in the early days. That and an SSD drive and VG feels the most pervasive of all the mmo worlds. 

  Purutzil

Elite Member

Joined: 10/02/11
Posts: 2799

The Critical Hit Pretzel!

1/19/13 8:16:23 AM#131

Its bad but nothing new for any real MMO out there to be blunt. GW2 has it despite preaching to 'level anywhere you want' (which isn't the most efficient way to level mind you, it will be slower) just since the mid-level zones I think just don't have anything 'amazing' to warrent special attention and just most lean at low level or high level content where most people will gravitate to play. 

 

Again, nothing new to an MMo at all but it is a problem that every game has and GW2 is no exception. People often ignore content that isn't fun or just doesn't stick out to them with benefits for doing it.

  kitarad

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/17/10
Posts: 1174

1/19/13 8:43:14 AM#132

Hold on , a tad confused here. Are you equating a portal you load through and a world where you can walk or fly or run anywhere as the same because the time it takes to travel is a loading screen by your definition. One is seamless, the world is considered by most MMORPGamers as seamless and the other is not. How can anyone equate a world where you can practically walk anywhere with one where you are forced to use a portal as the same.

 

Also while you might consider that travel as a time sink many players myself included hate to see zones divided up by portals. We like having the freedom of going anywhere on the terrain as it gives us a feeling of a real world as opposed to zones where we are sheparded to a portal to exit the area. I used to love using the river or going over hills and mountains in WoW to use a less travelled path to get to another area which if you have to use portals can never be achieved. I do not understand how anyone can equate these two.

 

 

  jpnz

Elite Member

Joined: 6/29/06
Posts: 3461

1/19/13 4:51:56 PM#133
Originally posted by kitarad

/snip

 I do not understand how anyone can equate these two.

  

 Pretty easy since 'logic' doesn't hinder a post by a bias-supporter.

Pretty sure every poster (whether for or against GW2) can now see that 'yes there is a problem' and the problem is very severe.

If you are one of the lucky players to be on the two populated servers, you'd be alright. If not, well, enjoy leveling up solo or via crafting.

 

Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

  Aerowyn

Novice Member

Joined: 2/20/12
Posts: 7969

1/19/13 4:56:34 PM#134
Originally posted by jpnz
Originally posted by kitarad

/snip

 I do not understand how anyone can equate these two.

  

 Pretty easy since 'logic' doesn't hinder a post by a bias-supporter.

Pretty sure every poster (whether for or against GW2) can now see that 'yes there is a problem' and the problem is very severe.

If you are one of the lucky players to be on the two populated servers, you'd be alright. If not, well, enjoy leveling up solo or via crafting.

 

guess i'm one of the lucky ones becuase Sanctum of Rall still has plenty to level with.. been leveling my mesmer which i just started last week and have yet to find a zone that feels completely "dead".. it's actually a ton more fun leveling now as everything isn't a giant zerg like it was months ago. Oh also watching the live stream seems a lot of whats coming in the following months is adding things to bring players back to all zones so should help out servers that have emptier mid zones

I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  aSynchro

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/13/11
Posts: 146

1/19/13 5:33:26 PM#135
Something pretty cool in WoW is that you can be in a zone (say, Elwynn Forest) , pull a mob that is in ANOTHER zone (Duskwood) and the mob will cross the river to fight you. So the frontiers between zones are very open, this gives a great "seamless world" feeling.

I really like GW2 but yeah, not being able to go from my forge in the Black Citadel to the low level zone just next to it without a loading screen is kinda heart breaking.
  ESSKA

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/08/06
Posts: 105

1/19/13 6:33:00 PM#136
Originally posted by jpnz
Originally posted by kitarad

/snip

 I do not understand how anyone can equate these two.

  

 Pretty easy since 'logic' doesn't hinder a post by a bias-supporter.

Pretty sure every poster (whether for or against GW2) can now see that 'yes there is a problem' and the problem is very severe.

If you are one of the lucky players to be on the two populated servers, you'd be alright. If not, well, enjoy leveling up solo or via crafting.

 

What two servers? Ehmry Bay is just fine as well as Gates of Madness.  Blackgate is doing well and Tarnished Coast. Why do you people feel the need to make shit up so much? I see

  Aerowyn

Novice Member

Joined: 2/20/12
Posts: 7969

1/19/13 6:44:18 PM#137
Originally posted by TCTC
Originally posted by jpnz
Originally posted by kitarad

/snip

 I do not understand how anyone can equate these two.

  

 Pretty easy since 'logic' doesn't hinder a post by a bias-supporter.

Pretty sure every poster (whether for or against GW2) can now see that 'yes there is a problem' and the problem is very severe.

If you are one of the lucky players to be on the two populated servers, you'd be alright. If not, well, enjoy leveling up solo or via crafting.

 

What two servers? Ehmry Bay is just fine as well as Gates of Madness.  Blackgate is doing well and Tarnished Coast. Why do you people feel the need to make shit up so much? I see

Sanctum of Rall is doing well anytime I'm on.. so theres another to add to the list:)

I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  fiontar

Novice Member

Joined: 4/07/04
Posts: 3687

1/19/13 10:20:15 PM#138
Originally posted by Aerowyn
Originally posted by TCTC
Originally posted by jpnz
Originally posted by kitarad

/snip

 I do not understand how anyone can equate these two.

  

 Pretty easy since 'logic' doesn't hinder a post by a bias-supporter.

Pretty sure every poster (whether for or against GW2) can now see that 'yes there is a problem' and the problem is very severe.

If you are one of the lucky players to be on the two populated servers, you'd be alright. If not, well, enjoy leveling up solo or via crafting.

 

What two servers? Ehmry Bay is just fine as well as Gates of Madness.  Blackgate is doing well and Tarnished Coast. Why do you people feel the need to make shit up so much? I see

Sanctum of Rall is doing well anytime I'm on.. so theres another to add to the list:)

I don't follow the EU servers, but I know that all but two of the US servers are Full except for very off peak hours, even with the recent server cap increases. (In fact, the caps have been increased a number of times since launch). I'm on Tarnished Coast and there really is no discernable population problem.

People are more spread out and I'm sure average hours played per week has decreased for most players, so of course the zones will feel loss populated than during the first month, but even as an off peak player, I've never had any issues.

Want to know more about GW2 and why there is so much buzz? Start here: Guild Wars 2 Mass Info for the Uninitiated

  fiontar

Novice Member

Joined: 4/07/04
Posts: 3687

1/19/13 11:00:58 PM#139
Originally posted by kitarad

Hold on , a tad confused here. Are you equating a portal you load through and a world where you can walk or fly or run anywhere as the same because the time it takes to travel is a loading screen by your definition. One is seamless, the world is considered by most MMORPGamers as seamless and the other is not. How can anyone equate a world where you can practically walk anywhere with one where you are forced to use a portal as the same.

 

Also while you might consider that travel as a time sink many players myself included hate to see zones divided up by portals. We like having the freedom of going anywhere on the terrain as it gives us a feeling of a real world as opposed to zones where we are sheparded to a portal to exit the area. I used to love using the river or going over hills and mountains in WoW to use a less travelled path to get to another area which if you have to use portals can never be achieved. I do not understand how anyone can equate these two.

 

 

Even WoW is not seemless, FYI. With Vanilla WoW, there were at least three regions seperate by loading screens: Eastern Kingdoms, Kalimdor and Teldrassil. With each expansion, the number of transitions has increased. So, please, don't pretend that WoW is seemless.

Developers don't make these decisions to tick of players, they do it for technical reasons. GW2 has much better graphics and much more detailed settings. Having to have zoning is a very minor tradeoff IMO.

Want to know more about GW2 and why there is so much buzz? Start here: Guild Wars 2 Mass Info for the Uninitiated

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