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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Technology and Huge Seamless Open Worlds

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74 posts found
  Quirhid

Elite Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5725

Correcting wrongs on the Internet...

1/15/13 2:56:27 PM#41

I'm surprised we haven't touched on gameplay features vs. player numbers yet. For example, GW2 had to give up body blocking in order to accomodate higher player numbers in zones. It is a very resource-intensive feature, so I hear, so the server-side calculations would become insurmountable with many players in the same area.

A game such as Eve Online, is simplified to accomodate large player numbers. Therefore it doesn't have collision detection, directional combat, newtonian flight, physics or even direct controls for your ship. The lack of some of these also make it less vulnerable to high latency, meaning you'll be relatively unaffected no matter where around the globe you play. As a comparison, a player playing a fast-paced FPS game in Australia when the server is in Europe is crippled by the high latency.

I don't know about Planetside 2, but Battlefield 3 had to really work to get those player numbers they have on their servers. For instance, from what I hear, they've moved hit detection from the common server-side to client-side calculation. That is why deaths and hits sometimes have a certain lag. You should know what I'm talking about if you're familiar with various FPS games. One other downside to this is that it could be exploited.

Point is: you always have to give something to improve performance.

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  Quizzical

Guide

Joined: 12/11/08
Posts: 13756

1/15/13 2:57:33 PM#42
Originally posted by Matticus75

we still have the same problems with better processors, servers, higher speed internet, ect, and im still confused myself why they are still "major" issues.

Conspicuously missing from your list is the problem:  7200 RPM hard drives still spin at 7200 RPM, just like they did a decade ago.

  Volkon

Novice Member

Joined: 9/14/10
Posts: 3813

Facts do not require fiction for balance.

1/15/13 3:01:50 PM#43
Originally posted by GrayGhost79
Originally posted by Volkon
The problem with the "huge open seamless world" is that it nearly demands static content (mobs, quests, etc.) in order to be feasible. When, for example, you have static quest givers standing there with a "!" over their heads you can load them as a part of the terrain. However, as games shift to a more dynamic content, where the world can be in varying states and NPCs can be on the move, dead, etc. then you have the situation where when a player enters an area he needs the data for everything dynamic happening  around him. You may not see something happening over that hill, but it's there and ongoing so you need to load that information just in case you go over that hill. This is why GW2, for example, had to zone their world... the dynamic event system sends huge amounts of data when compared to static quest dudes.

Ultima Online exists to prove you wrong :) which is still to this day one of the largest game worlds on top of being open and seamless. 

UO also had huge live events where hundreds of players would be in the same area defending towns against wave after wave of attacking mobs. 

 

It always makes me sad when posts like this are made because they were proven wrong back in 1997, with a dialup connection, on a 486 ... 

 

Not exactly. Those UO style events are still pretty static. You're in an area, mobs spawn there and attack... nothing dramatic or gamebreaking there. Pretty much nothing more than "this is happening or it isn't". You're also talking about a lot less data transmitted as well compared to modern tech. Yes, it was impressive, but it's nothing more than "what's happening right around me, who's right around me". In GW2, it's "what's happening in the zone". 

Oderint, dum metuant.

  Volkon

Novice Member

Joined: 9/14/10
Posts: 3813

Facts do not require fiction for balance.

1/15/13 3:03:55 PM#44

Why are people mentioning Eve? Every system in a zone. Yes, they're all on one server, but heavily zoned. How many times have people been parked outside the Jita gates waiting to get in because Jita was full...

 

 

Oderint, dum metuant.

  Quirhid

Elite Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5725

Correcting wrongs on the Internet...

1/15/13 3:06:26 PM#45
nvm

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  Gdemami

Elite Member

Joined: 9/23/08
Posts: 7481

1/15/13 3:06:59 PM#46


Originally posted by Quirhid

A game such as Eve Online, is simplified to accomodate large player numbers.

Deep and complex combat system is considered "simple"...?

  Quizzical

Guide

Joined: 12/11/08
Posts: 13756

1/15/13 3:08:05 PM#47
Originally posted by NaughtyP

I would imagine an open, persistent seamless world that doesn't use any instancing/ will always cost more to maintain than an instanced because in the seamless solution it is (probably) impossible to recoup any server resources that are dedicated to the game world while instancedsolutions would give you the opportunity to recoup resources in certain scenarios (ie. instance destroyed due to being empty).

Having different instances for each player means you have a lot more instances than if it's just one instance shared by a bunch of players.  The latter might put a little more load on network bandwidth because you have to tell players what other players are doing.  But the former will mean a much higher server load on CPU and system memory because you have far more mobs running around.

  Quizzical

Guide

Joined: 12/11/08
Posts: 13756

1/15/13 3:10:43 PM#48
Originally posted by Goatgod76

It is possible. Vanguard: Saga of Heroes, has a pretty big open seamless world. You can travel from one end to the other (Of a given continent...it has 3). Even the dungeons you can simply walk into without a loading screen. It does have portals and a need to load between continental travel...but that is it. And not to mention VG's graphics are not too shabby at all. I'd say maybe just under AoC/Rift in looks.

 

I see no reason it can't be done now.

Vanguard doesn't have loading screens, but when the game completely locks up to make you wait for it to load the next zone, is that really so much better than putting up a loading screen?

Vanguard also has some very severe hitching problems caused by the game trying to load things faster than hardware can handle as you move around.  You might have fast enough hardware to not see either of those problems; a good SSD would probably fix both.  But putting a good SSD in the minimum system requirements is not a good idea.  Yet.  Though I hope it will be someday.

  Quirhid

Elite Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5725

Correcting wrongs on the Internet...

1/15/13 3:12:56 PM#49
Originally posted by Quizzical
Originally posted by Goatgod76
 

Vanguard doesn't have loading screens, but when the game completely locks up to make you wait for it to load the next zone, is that really so much better than putting up a loading screen?

Vanguard also has some very severe hitching problems caused by the game trying to load things faster than hardware can handle as you move around.  You might have fast enough hardware to not see either of those problems; a good SSD would probably fix both.  But putting a good SSD in the minimum system requirements is not a good idea.  Yet.  Though I hope it will be someday.

I agree. The freeze between zones is essentially the same as a loading screen.

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  Volkon

Novice Member

Joined: 9/14/10
Posts: 3813

Facts do not require fiction for balance.

1/15/13 3:15:08 PM#50
Originally posted by Quirhid
nvm

You weren't about to pop me for using "instanced" instead of "zoned" when I first posted, are you? Yeah... I caught that and was momentarily embarassed. 

Oderint, dum metuant.

  Quirhid

Elite Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5725

Correcting wrongs on the Internet...

1/15/13 3:15:26 PM#51
Originally posted by Gdemami


Originally posted by Quirhid

A game such as Eve Online, is simplified to accomodate large player numbers.

Deep and complex combat system is considered "simple"...?

I know better than to reply to that.

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

1/15/13 3:15:52 PM#52
Skyrim freezes as you transit borders if your pc is low soec enough.
  Quirhid

Elite Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5725

Correcting wrongs on the Internet...

1/15/13 3:16:15 PM#53
Originally posted by Volkon
Originally posted by Quirhid
nvm

You weren't about to pop me for using "instanced" instead of "zoned" when I first posted, are you? Yeah... I caught that and was momentarily embarassed. 

I was. Glad you noticed your mistake.

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  Gdemami

Elite Member

Joined: 9/23/08
Posts: 7481

1/15/13 3:19:24 PM#54


Quizzical got it mostly covered but there is still one part missing - besides server and network performance, you also need to consider client. Every player has different configuration and having well scaling gfx options in something like MMO isn't an easy task.

  Gdemami

Elite Member

Joined: 9/23/08
Posts: 7481

1/15/13 3:20:25 PM#55


Originally posted by Quirhid
I know better than to reply to that.

Your edited post implies otherwise...

  LizardEgypt

Novice Member

Joined: 2/25/09
Posts: 359

Hmm ?

1/15/13 3:22:10 PM#56
Darkfall has pretty good server tech, didn't they do a business deal a while back to sell it to someone? The cluster concept seems to work really well for maintaining a huge world and a lot of action.

Currently playing - FF14ARR
Previous games - SWG, World of Warcraft, ShadowBane, Warhammer, Age of Conan, Darkfall, Planetside Asheron's Call, Everquest, Everquest 2, Too many.

  botrytis

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 2564

1/15/13 3:25:01 PM#57
Originally posted by Volkon

Why are people mentioning Eve? Every system in a zone. Yes, they're all on one server, but heavily zoned. How many times have people been parked outside the Jita gates waiting to get in because Jita was full...

 

 

People have blinders on is all. Many of the games we have played are not that big AND other things besides the world is done - characters, NPC, etc. The servers have a limited amount of time to calculate and make things seem instantaneous. We can model bacterial cells but it takes a large server ( like a new Cray computer) to calculate and to come out with one point. People expect a virtual world NOT to be as complicated?

"In 50 years, when I talk to my grandchildren about these days, I'll make sure to mention what an accomplished MMO player I was. They are going to be so proud ..."
by Naqaj - 7/17/2013 MMORPG.com forum

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

1/15/13 3:26:15 PM#58
Well Yeh eve is zoned. But its not instanced.
  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20515

1/15/13 3:43:24 PM#59
PS2 has a open world with long view distance and FPS style pvp. So it can be done.
  Banaghran

Novice Member

Joined: 1/17/12
Posts: 872

1/15/13 3:45:00 PM#60
Originally posted by botrytis
Originally posted by Volkon

Why are people mentioning Eve? Every system in a zone. Yes, they're all on one server, but heavily zoned. How many times have people been parked outside the Jita gates waiting to get in because Jita was full...

 

 

People have blinders on is all. Many of the games we have played are not that big AND other things besides the world is done - characters, NPC, etc. The servers have a limited amount of time to calculate and make things seem instantaneous. We can model bacterial cells but it takes a large server ( like a new Cray computer) to calculate and to come out with one point. People expect a virtual world NOT to be as complicated?

Then other people tend to overcomplicate things, do we really need aoe buffs to check every 200ms with the server? Do we really need that npc position updated every 500ms if we dont see him, and the client can approximate? Do we really need to send whole 60k linearized objects over the internet instead of a simplified communication protocol? Do we really need to remove tabs from the inventory just because we made item definitions huge? (Mandatory d3 jab.)

Yet games do stuff like that, that is why some games have problems and some havent, a +-2005 game server could run on a athlon 800mhz, with 2k people online, these days 15-30k is not out of ordinary.

But you have to have good optimized software :)

Which is unlikely if the company just buys the current fad engine built by people who dont see anything wrong with a 500k exe "Hello world!" example.

Flame on!

:)

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