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News & Features Discussion  » [Column] WildStar: Is a 'Sandpark' Even Possible?

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65 posts found
  Loktofeit

Novice Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12401

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ArcheAge, and Combat Arms

1/14/13 6:29:59 PM#21

Since each MMO is a combination of themepark and sandbox (among other elements), it not only is doable but has been done almost every time an MMO has been made. Did a columnist here really just use the term 'sandpark' or was this a spotlight of a poster's thread?

EDIT: Regarding Wildstar - their goal seems to be a focus on entertainment spaces. Whether those spaces can be pigeonholed into a particular category doesn't seem to be their concern. "Modern playground" is actually a brilliant term and I really want to hear more about that. It puts the thinking in terms of an arena for playing, and that can encompass rides, toys, rulesets and the social interaction that tethers them together.

 

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  OgreRaper

Novice Member

Joined: 6/20/11
Posts: 381

1/14/13 6:41:20 PM#22
I'm looking forward to WildStar. I just hope it doesn't feel like it's another game on rails (WOW), cause I get bored of those really fast.
  PittyH

Novice Member

Joined: 8/21/04
Posts: 118

1/14/13 7:12:17 PM#23

Ask 100 people what a sandbox is and get 100 different answers.

A sandbox can most certainly have thempark elements like quests/dungeons even raids.

The key to a sandbox is having degradable/destroyable items and a robust crafting system, this in turn creates a supply/demand ecconomy where player interaction is essential.

The key to a sandbox is also having an open world area of the game where pvp can take place usually with a reason to be there i.e resources.

And thus begins the endless cycle of territorial control and crafting supply and demand

 

A sandbox has nothing to do with non instanced player housing or terrain deformation like i've read in some threads. Just look at EVE which has neither of these things.

The ability to effect the game world comes primarily from player interactions, and the stories that arise from said interactions.

my web design: www.advancedws.com.au

  Larsa

Novice Member

Joined: 2/14/04
Posts: 992

1/14/13 7:26:39 PM#24


Originally posted by Suzie Ford

One of the things that Carbine Studios is aiming to do with WildStar is to create the first true hybrid between the theme park MMO and the sandbox MMO. ...


Well, it's certainly not the first hybrid, see Vanguard for example.

Apart from that, I believe, studios are starting to see that the revenue gained from themeparks is limited by the game's longevity: cue in the attempt to make a themepark that captures the players' attention for more than a month or so.

And that is what Wildstar will be trying as well. It's a themepark that may have a few "sandboxy" features, very few I believe - and those features are not in the game to capture the sandbox crowd (those won't play Wildstar anyway), those features are in the game to provide some longevity to the themepark crowd.

That doesn't make the game a sandbox or a "sandpark", that just makes the game a themepark with an attention span of more than a few weeks. Good luck to them.

I maintain this List of Sandbox MMORPGs. Please post or send PM for corrections and suggestions.

  darkhalf357x

Elite Member

Joined: 1/25/12
Posts: 1124

I'm only playing the role chosen for me. Who you supposed to be?

1/14/13 7:47:05 PM#25

Sandpark is totally achieveable and also agree it should (will) be the future of successful MMOs. At the end of the day it gives us (the players) choice which has been missing for a while.

Sometimes I feel like questing.  I can (tie a nice story to it to boot).   If I get bored then I can run off and do a plethora of other things.  Always having the ability to come back to a quest if I so decide. 

It has to be done right and that is in the art of design.  Go kill 10 rats is not questing in my opinion. Its lazy design.  Make questing a strong context of the overall conflict (whatever that is) and it can be interesting.  If you have levels (since its a hybrid) make it worth while and not just a pass time to get to "max" 

I believe whichever developer "gets" this will have a successful MMO. 

Im ready with wallet in hand... 

  Loktofeit

Novice Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12401

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ArcheAge, and Combat Arms

1/14/13 7:53:04 PM#26
Originally posted by Larsa

 


Originally posted by Suzie Ford

 

One of the things that Carbine Studios is aiming to do with WildStar is to create the first true hybrid between the theme park MMO and the sandbox MMO. ...


 

Well, it's certainly not the first hybrid, see Vanguard for example.

Apart from that, I believe, studios are starting to see that the revenue gained from themeparks is limited by the game's longevity: cue in the attempt to make a themepark that captures the players' attention for more than a month or so.

And that is what Wildstar will be trying as well. It's a themepark that may have a few "sandboxy" features, very few I believe - and those features are not in the game to capture the sandbox crowd (those won't play Wildstar anyway), those features are in the game to provide some longevity to the themepark crowd.

That doesn't make the game a sandbox or a "sandpark", that just makes the game a themepark with an attention span of more than a few weeks. Good luck to them.

Yeah, it seems like more and more devs are starting to realize that toys and tools help maintain longevity much more than the scripted content does. I'm hopeful lfor the next round of MMOs to come out.

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  acidblood

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/13/06
Posts: 248

1/14/13 8:00:08 PM#27

You're never going to make everyone happy, and I don't see the sandbox crowd being won over by anything short of a 'pure' sandbox, but the move to more dynamic worlds with a themepark overlay is definitely a step in the right direction.

A good analogy is Dark Souls (and Demons Souls), it's for all intents a singleplayer game, but has dynamic multiplayer if you want it. It is never going to please someone looking for a multiplayer game, but definitely adds to the experience for people who enjoy singleplayer games.

  Beatnik59

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/23/05
Posts: 2244

"Playing things I shouldn''t be playing since 1977."

1/14/13 8:03:57 PM#28

The only two 'Sandparks' I know of closed: SWG and CoH.

They were both good games.  They were both well supported by their communities and financially successful.  But they just weren't successful enough to save themselves from their publisher's axes, when push came to shove.

Don't get me wrong.  I think it's great to have systems in place that encourage creativity and persistant goals.  But I don't think it's possible anymore, given the nature of the genre.

We live in a time of the disposable MMO: where it isn't worth dumping a lot of time, dollars or energy into them.  Both sides of the producer and cosumer relationship feel this way, and they feed each other in a vicious cycle.  Cosumers rapidly consume everything as fast as possible before they leave.  Producers want to attract a bunch of bodies and dollars quickly before shutting it down.  Neither side has any reason to become any more engaged with the MMO any more than absolutely necessary.

__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken

"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.

"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

1/14/13 8:06:03 PM#29
Originally posted by Beatnik59

The only two 'Sandparks' I know of closed: SWG and CoH.

They were both good games.  They were both well supported by their communities and financially successful.  But they just weren't successful enough to save themselves from their publisher's axes, when push came to shove.

Don't get me wrong.  I think it's great to have systems in place that encourage creativity and persistant goals.  But I don't think it's possible anymore, given the nature of the genre.

We live in a time of the disposable MMO: where it isn't worth dumping a lot of time, dollars or energy into them.  Both sides of the producer and cosumer relationship feel this way, and they feed each other in a vicious cycle.  Cosumers rapidly consume everything as fast as possible before they leave.  Producers want to attract a bunch of bodies and dollars quickly before shutting it down.  Neither side has any reason to become any more engaged with the MMO any more than absolutely necessary.

COH was a themepark.  bloody hell it invented instanced PVP,  it basicly does the same thing as wow

  Beatnik59

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/23/05
Posts: 2244

"Playing things I shouldn''t be playing since 1977."

1/14/13 8:18:49 PM#30
Originally posted by ShakyMo
Originally posted by Beatnik59

The only two 'Sandparks' I know of closed: SWG and CoH.

They were both good games.  They were both well supported by their communities and financially successful.  But they just weren't successful enough to save themselves from their publisher's axes, when push came to shove.

Don't get me wrong.  I think it's great to have systems in place that encourage creativity and persistant goals.  But I don't think it's possible anymore, given the nature of the genre.

We live in a time of the disposable MMO: where it isn't worth dumping a lot of time, dollars or energy into them.  Both sides of the producer and cosumer relationship feel this way, and they feed each other in a vicious cycle.  Cosumers rapidly consume everything as fast as possible before they leave.  Producers want to attract a bunch of bodies and dollars quickly before shutting it down.  Neither side has any reason to become any more engaged with the MMO any more than absolutely necessary.

COH was a themepark.  bloody hell it invented instanced PVP,  it basicly does the same thing as wow

It had enough sandbox elements to classify it as a hybrid.  It had player architecture.  It had the player-made mission system.  It had a bazaar and crafting.  It had chat bubbles (something that's getting harder to find), robust character generator and a ton of emotes.  Was it a sandbox?  No, but it had more sandbox elements than, say, DC Universe.

__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken

"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.

"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE

  jtcgs

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/28/04
Posts: 1843

1/14/13 8:26:38 PM#31
Originally posted by Beatnik59
Originally posted by ShakyMo
Originally posted by Beatnik59

The only two 'Sandparks' I know of closed: SWG and CoH.

They were both good games.  They were both well supported by their communities and financially successful.  But they just weren't successful enough to save themselves from their publisher's axes, when push came to shove.

Don't get me wrong.  I think it's great to have systems in place that encourage creativity and persistant goals.  But I don't think it's possible anymore, given the nature of the genre.

We live in a time of the disposable MMO: where it isn't worth dumping a lot of time, dollars or energy into them.  Both sides of the producer and cosumer relationship feel this way, and they feed each other in a vicious cycle.  Cosumers rapidly consume everything as fast as possible before they leave.  Producers want to attract a bunch of bodies and dollars quickly before shutting it down.  Neither side has any reason to become any more engaged with the MMO any more than absolutely necessary.

COH was a themepark.  bloody hell it invented instanced PVP,  it basicly does the same thing as wow

It had enough sandbox elements to classify it as a hybrid.  It had player architecture.  It had the player-made mission system.  It had a bazaar and crafting.  It had chat bubbles (something that's getting harder to find), robust character generator and a ton of emotes.  Was it a sandbox?  No, but it had more sandbox elements than, say, DC Universe.

Sandbox basically means an open world with no levels and storyline. CoH had split zones which is about as anti sandbox as can be...especailly when it splits areas based on level.

Bazaars. crafting, chat bubbles, character generator, emotes....nothing to do with sandbox elements.

Player made missions, possibly a sandbox element, but then we could also say "trees" are sandbox elements because it could be in a sandbox game. Sandbox games do not require it to be a sandbox game so saying its an element is...losely using the term.

“I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson

  User Deleted
1/14/13 8:35:05 PM#32

I think the issue here is the base framework is still the same old same old... be it a themepark or a sandbox, you're pulling from what already exists and slapping a new coat of paint on it.  Instead of just fixing what doesn't work (or what you perceive doesn't work) in an existing formula, why not create a new formula?  You can't tell me that mixing oranges with apples changes the fact that it's still fruit in the end... I think everyone on these forums will agree that nothing's really changed in the MMO world in the grand scheme of things... and that's really the underlying problem... the foundation itself needs to be tossed for something new.

If a straight themepark is dull and a straight sandbox is dull then a hybrid between the two will either be twice as dull or half as dull.  You're not removing the dull from the equation, you're hiding it.

  troublmaker

Novice Member

Joined: 5/10/11
Posts: 340

1/14/13 9:29:15 PM#33

Theme-park Dad: Okay let's hold hands and we'll show you what to do.

Sand-box Dad: GET OUT OF MY HOUSE AND COME UP WITH YOUR OWN DREAMS

Website: http://www.thegameguru.me / YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/users/thetroublmaker

  moosecatlol

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/25/10
Posts: 1184

1/14/13 9:34:04 PM#34
Not even a doubt in my mind, if I was given pre-CU SWG it would be my life.
  artemisentr4

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/25/08
Posts: 1442

1/14/13 10:29:11 PM#35

I think a sandbox with rides can work well. A sandbox world with the skills, crafting, building, economy, political conflict, non-combat features mini-games and so on can have rides mixed in for those that want them.

 

A general story for a given area for players to use to enteract with the environment and NPCs can coexist with player conflict IMO. Including a changing world that can make it more or less difficult to complete the story in an area of the world.

“How many people long for that "past, simpler, and better world," I wonder, without ever recognizing the truth that perhaps it was they who were simpler and better, and not the world about them?”
R.A.Salvatore

  jbombard

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/06/08
Posts: 484

1/14/13 11:16:36 PM#36

People define sandbox differently.  Getting consensus on that alone is an impossible task.  I think Carbine is smart in coming up with their own term.

 

As with anything, the proof is in the pudding.  But they do have some great ideas and I'm hoping they can bring everything to fruition.

 

  Jinxd_Rinx

Novice Member

Joined: 11/16/12
Posts: 1

The Geek shall inherit the Earth.

Do or Do Not, there is No Try.

1/15/13 12:58:25 AM#37
Originally posted by daydreamerxx
Star Wars Galaxies became a Sandpark game. A large sandbox game filled with smaller themeparks and story arcs. 

I miss Star Wars Galaxies  =(

<(^_^)>

  emperorwings

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/25/06
Posts: 1397

1/15/13 1:11:58 AM#38

 

The two could come together quite well. I like scrpted events sure but the problem with it is that it stops. It seems what the Carbon looks like their going to do is to use some of those script like events or whatever and give us extra things to do on the side and continue to do once that thing we call endgame hit. Which is what Themeparks seem to miss out. If they pull it off it'll be cool. But then it gets boring doing the same scripts and on rail thing more than once maybe twice. I don't want to wait and then pay to get more. The carbine seems to have a good idea on about housing, stuff to do on the side, word changing etc sorted out.

This isn't a signature, you just think it is.

  Harafnir

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/18/04
Posts: 1379

1/15/13 1:16:45 AM#39

Biggest definition of Sandbox is "power to the players" Given tools to create what game they want to play, not being lead by the nose in a path the developers choose for them. If I can create my completly own class, and play the game any way i want, doing whatever I want, heck if I want to start a general store and sell pots and pans for two years andis able to do that.. then it is a sandbox. When I decide what to do and have the tools to do that. If I choose a predefinded class, then walk to where the devs want me at my level, then play their scenario there.. then it is a themepark.  Not that hard to define or misinterpret. But clearly very easy to use as a sales pitch without any intention to actually make it real.

"This is not a game to be tossed aside lightly.
It should be thrown with great force"

  cylon8

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/10/07
Posts: 314

1/15/13 1:18:52 AM#40
In a way free realms is a mold for for sandparks. You have a huge seamless world that functio.s as the sandbox world.where players socialize and explore. Littered throughout the world are instanced quests and mini games. Player housing and farming are instance however are open for the entire community to view. They even introdouced overworld. Combat.

so say we all

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