Originally posted by VoreDock

Originally posted by patrikd23

Question:

 

Have you ever seen a game with subs to feed all the people that work with the game +  a profit or more go F2P?

I myself think every mmorpg game that goes F2P only does it because they can not affort or go around with the subs they had.

Subs pay more every month than F2P does, ofcourse depending on how many. My point is that if a game had lots of subs they

would not go F2P. And yes F2P is last cry for help before closing the game down if it doesn´t work as a F2P model.

Think of F2P as: "Ok we dont have enough subs to pay all the employees and make a small profit. Lets try F2P before we shut the game down, and dont even get the money back that we put into it in the first place".

this is also not  true

SWTOR for example was turning a profit  it went F2P on presher from EA  ( witch  EA has now destroyed Biowere )  F2P for  SWTOR was never about Money  it was about  justiy the game to  EA  so that EA would leave them alone 

Aion has always made a profit look it up 

planetside  well in the black 

and Second Life is a cash cow 

their are meny more 

Not enough profit on aion and planetside, atleast not after 6 months. Second life and Entropia is real cash economy can´t count those in. Why dont they just go free to play from the start have you asked that question before? Swtor only had many subs first 4 months, broken endgame and so on, lost more than half of their subs. So no wonder it went F2P.

Originally posted by Loktofeit

"on a higher quality game"

Assumption with no basis. There is no gaurantee the subscription game is going to be of higher quality. If this was five years ago, I'd probably agree with you, but we've gone through four years of crappy subscription games, each one of them struggling to stay alive. Meanwhile, the F2P games have provided more choices, more stable releases, more regular ingame events and more diversity than almost everything these blockbuster AAA subscription titles have been able to bring to the table.

 Of course there are more choices for the P2W business model.  Low quality games can be made much more cheaply and are practically cut and pasted with 1 or 2 different game mechanics.   Stability isn't a product from them being " better ", but because publisher expectations are much lower, since the development costs are low, and the supporting staff is kept to a minimum.  P2W games are designed to have lots events.   Just like stores have weekly adds to get people to purchase items.       

 

The P2W business model forces game mechanics to be inferior because they have to be designed to be monetized.   Developers can't just design their systems to be fun and hope that people will continue to play.  It has to be exploitable, or they don't get payed.  

I think you should also differentiate between games that converted to F2P and games that were designed with F2P as business model.

Originally posted by patrikd23

Originally posted by VoreDock

Originally posted by patrikd23

Question:

 

Have you ever seen a game with subs to feed all the people that work with the game +  a profit or more go F2P?

I myself think every mmorpg game that goes F2P only does it because they can not affort or go around with the subs they had.

Subs pay more every month than F2P does, ofcourse depending on how many. My point is that if a game had lots of subs they

would not go F2P. And yes F2P is last cry for help before closing the game down if it doesn´t work as a F2P model.

Think of F2P as: "Ok we dont have enough subs to pay all the employees and make a small profit. Lets try F2P before we shut the game down, and dont even get the money back that we put into it in the first place".

this is also not  true

SWTOR for example was turning a profit  it went F2P on presher from EA  ( witch  EA has now destroyed Biowere )  F2P for  SWTOR was never about Money  it was about  justiy the game to  EA  so that EA would leave them alone 

Aion has always made a profit look it up 

planetside  well in the black 

and Second Life is a cash cow 

their are meny more 

Not enough profit on aion and planetside, atleast not after 6 months. Second life and Entropia is real cash economy can´t count those in. Why dont they just go free to play from the start have you asked that question before? Swtor only had many subs first 4 months, broken endgame and so on, lost more than half of their subs. So no wonder it went F2P.

Too bad PlanetSide 2(I'm guessing you mean 2, PlanetSide 1 was never and still isn't F2P) has only been out for two months, and started as a "F2P" game.  Your statement "Subs pay more every month than F2P does" was disproved I think on Page 2? of this thread. Don't remember who posted it, but i'll edit this after with the name. Edit: It was Onomas on the first page.

Originally posted by patrikd23

Originally posted by VoreDock

Originally posted by patrikd23

Question:

 

Have you ever seen a game with subs to feed all the people that work with the game +  a profit or more go F2P?

I myself think every mmorpg game that goes F2P only does it because they can not affort or go around with the subs they had.

Subs pay more every month than F2P does, ofcourse depending on how many. My point is that if a game had lots of subs they

would not go F2P. And yes F2P is last cry for help before closing the game down if it doesn´t work as a F2P model.

Think of F2P as: "Ok we dont have enough subs to pay all the employees and make a small profit. Lets try F2P before we shut the game down, and dont even get the money back that we put into it in the first place".

this is also not  true

SWTOR for example was turning a profit  it went F2P on presher from EA  ( witch  EA has now destroyed Biowere )  F2P for  SWTOR was never about Money  it was about  justiy the game to  EA  so that EA would leave them alone 

Aion has always made a profit look it up 

planetside  well in the black 

and Second Life is a cash cow 

their are meny more 

Not enough profit on aion and planetside, atleast not after 6 months. Second life and Entropia is real cash economy can´t count those in. Why dont they just go free to play from the start have you asked that question before? Swtor only had many subs first 4 months, broken endgame and so on, lost more than half of their subs. So no wonder it went F2P.

This is just not true   the   data is public  go look at it  your speaking on a subject you know nothing about  the sub data from all of theas games is public  on the  games websight,  if your going to make a clam like that back it up .................. oh wait you can't  because it's untrue

Originally posted by Digirono

Originally posted by patrikd23

Originally posted by VoreDock

Originally posted by patrikd23

Question:

 

Have you ever seen a game with subs to feed all the people that work with the game +  a profit or more go F2P?

I myself think every mmorpg game that goes F2P only does it because they can not affort or go around with the subs they had.

Subs pay more every month than F2P does, ofcourse depending on how many. My point is that if a game had lots of subs they

would not go F2P. And yes F2P is last cry for help before closing the game down if it doesn´t work as a F2P model.

Think of F2P as: "Ok we dont have enough subs to pay all the employees and make a small profit. Lets try F2P before we shut the game down, and dont even get the money back that we put into it in the first place".

this is also not  true

SWTOR for example was turning a profit  it went F2P on presher from EA  ( witch  EA has now destroyed Biowere )  F2P for  SWTOR was never about Money  it was about  justiy the game to  EA  so that EA would leave them alone 

Aion has always made a profit look it up 

planetside  well in the black 

and Second Life is a cash cow 

their are meny more 

Not enough profit on aion and planetside, atleast not after 6 months. Second life and Entropia is real cash economy can´t count those in. Why dont they just go free to play from the start have you asked that question before? Swtor only had many subs first 4 months, broken endgame and so on, lost more than half of their subs. So no wonder it went F2P.

Too bad PlanetSide 2(I'm guessing you mean 2, PlanetSide 1 was never and still isn't F2P) has only been out for two months, and started as a "F2P" game.  Your statement "Subs pay more every month than F2P does" was disproved I think on Page 2? of this thread. Don't remember who posted it, but i'll edit this after with the name. Edit: It was Onomas on the first page.

He wrote planetside , so I guessed one. Planetside 2 was open beta then they decided to go F2P.I was talking about the games that went F2P not the ones that was made F2P from start. And I said it depends on how many subs. And if its not enough subs it goes F2P with "some" people paying for the rest in a pay to win game since the others cant afford it.

Originally posted by moosecatlol
The issue was that none of those games had the pulling power or the content to retain players in the first place.

also untrue  Swtor and Aion have a Core sub group of players that have never wavered  

one of the choices to go F2P  for  both games was to give that core group more players to group with in game  

Originally posted by patrikd23

Originally posted by Digirono

Originally posted by patrikd23

Originally posted by VoreDock

Originally posted by patrikd23

Question:

 

Have you ever seen a game with subs to feed all the people that work with the game +  a profit or more go F2P?

I myself think every mmorpg game that goes F2P only does it because they can not affort or go around with the subs they had.

Subs pay more every month than F2P does, ofcourse depending on how many. My point is that if a game had lots of subs they

would not go F2P. And yes F2P is last cry for help before closing the game down if it doesn´t work as a F2P model.

Think of F2P as: "Ok we dont have enough subs to pay all the employees and make a small profit. Lets try F2P before we shut the game down, and dont even get the money back that we put into it in the first place".

this is also not  true

SWTOR for example was turning a profit  it went F2P on presher from EA  ( witch  EA has now destroyed Biowere )  F2P for  SWTOR was never about Money  it was about  justiy the game to  EA  so that EA would leave them alone 

Aion has always made a profit look it up 

planetside  well in the black 

and Second Life is a cash cow 

their are meny more 

Not enough profit on aion and planetside, atleast not after 6 months. Second life and Entropia is real cash economy can´t count those in. Why dont they just go free to play from the start have you asked that question before? Swtor only had many subs first 4 months, broken endgame and so on, lost more than half of their subs. So no wonder it went F2P.

Too bad PlanetSide 2(I'm guessing you mean 2, PlanetSide 1 was never and still isn't F2P) has only been out for two months, and started as a "F2P" game.  Your statement "Subs pay more every month than F2P does" was disproved I think on Page 2? of this thread. Don't remember who posted it, but i'll edit this after with the name. Edit: It was Onomas on the first page.

He wrote planetside , so I guessed one. Planetside 2 was open beta then they decided to go F2P.I was talking about the games that went F2P not the ones that was made F2P from start. And I said it depends on how many subs. And if its not enough subs it goes F2P with "some" people paying for the rest in a pay to win game since the others cant afford it.

you started bay saying theas games don't make a profit or feed  the dev's that make them  then you said  the profit was not good  also un true  you have no point left !

Originally posted by VoreDock

Originally posted by moosecatlol
The issue was that none of those games had the pulling power or the content to retain players in the first place.

also untrue  Swtor and Aion have a Core sub group of players that have never wavered  

one of the choices to go F2P  for  both games was to give that core group more players to group with in game  

 

 

Both Swtor and Aion are pay to win. And here is a review on swtor http://penny-arcade.com/report/editorial-article/the-old-republics-free-to-play-option-isnt-worth-your-time-let-alone-money

Originally posted by moosecatlol
The issue was that none of those games had the pulling power or the content to retain players in the first place.

Exactly.

If an mmo comes out and is subscription based to start with and has to switch to free to play, it's a failure, in a sense. They couldn't keep enough subscribers, so they grasp for straws and make it free to play and put in a cash shop, which is what they should have done to begin with because the game wasn't good enough to warrant a subscription.

Originally posted by thinktank001

Originally posted by Loktofeit

"on a higher quality game"

Assumption with no basis. There is no gaurantee the subscription game is going to be of higher quality. If this was five years ago, I'd probably agree with you, but we've gone through four years of crappy subscription games, each one of them struggling to stay alive. Meanwhile, the F2P games have provided more choices, more stable releases, more regular ingame events and more diversity than almost everything these blockbuster AAA subscription titles have been able to bring to the table.

 Of course there are more choices for the P2W business model.  Low quality games can be made much more cheaply and are practically cut and pasted with 1 or 2 different game mechanics.   Stability isn't a product from them being " better ", but because publisher expectations are much lower, since the development costs are low, and the supporting staff is kept to a minimum.  P2W games are designed to have lots events.   Just like stores have weekly adds to get people to purchase items.       

The P2W business model forces game mechanics to be inferior because they have to be designed to be monetized.   Developers can't just design their systems to be fun and hope that people will continue to play.  It has to be exploitable, or they don't get payed.  

So, your stance is that MMO gamers are more gullible than any other consumer, correct? Or are you saying they have a gaming addiction?

One of the two has to be true in order for your assertion to be correct. Are you saying MMO gamers, spenders and free players alike, are gullible or addicts?

See, you either didn't think your response through or you have an extremely low opinion of MMO gamers, as your argument is based on them being a collective bunch of idiots. Except you, of course.  Otherwise your argument falls apart, as every other entertainment seeker on the planet will take part in a voluntary entertainment exercise as long as they find it fun. If they don't find it fun, they stop doing it.

Are you now going to contend that they really aren't finding it fun and they are just tricked into thinking they are having fun?

Originally posted by Tayah

Originally posted by moosecatlol
The issue was that none of those games had the pulling power or the content to retain players in the first place.

Exactly.

If an mmo comes out and is subscription based to start with and has to switch to free to play, it's a failure, in a sense. They couldn't keep enough subscribers, so they grasp for straws and make it free to play and put in a cash shop, which is what they should have done to begin with because the game wasn't good enough to warrant a subscription.

Thank you for writing what I thought, got sidetracked from other posts. But this is exactly what I mean. And also the games that are F2P from the start is also Pay 2 Win from my point of view.

Originally posted by patrikd23

Originally posted by Tayah

Originally posted by moosecatlol
The issue was that none of those games had the pulling power or the content to retain players in the first place.

Exactly.

If an mmo comes out and is subscription based to start with and has to switch to free to play, it's a failure, in a sense. They couldn't keep enough subscribers, so they grasp for straws and make it free to play and put in a cash shop, which is what they should have done to begin with because the game wasn't good enough to warrant a subscription.

Thank you for writing what I thought, got sidetracked from other posts. But this is exactly what I mean. And also the games that are F2P from the start is also Pay 2 Win from my point of view.

totaly not true  play a  F2P game and you would know that   their are pay to win games out their but not all  free games are pay to win  no  SOE  game is P2W  Aion  is not P2W and even SWTOR is not P2W 

War of legends is a free 2 play but most pay 2 win. Some of the top legends are very expensive and are not available through quests. To gain the top legends u have to pay. I did manage to flip items in the market and save enough for the best legend in the game his artefact and his mount. Hundreds of $$ worth of in game credits. I never spent a dime on that game.

http://www.sythe.org/other-games/1516663-selling-war-legends-account-rahu.html

Originally posted by Bomtox
For those who say Aion is truly f2p, stop talking rabish. It is completely free as long as you continuously buy a gold pack aka 30 day ingame subscription which costs around 10$. I made it up to lvl 50 and after that i even bought 4 gold packs aka 40$, which i activated them but didn't had the chance to enjoy, because i went to play a better game. I recently log in to see that your truly f2p game still doesn't allow me to use the LFG channel or to create an entry in the looking for group menu, unless i will buy gold packs again. I forgot to mention that i am not allowed to trade items to other players, send items in mails, and until recently i wasn't even able to use the in game shop to sell or buy anything except gold pack. Aion F2P? Yes it is free to play, but like most of free games, that's all you will get, the ability to play, but not to have fun unless you PAY. Btw, the Aion servers are completely empty, i rarely see a person in town every half of hour.

I guess he was talking about Aion truly free the NA version and not the Failforge EU version cause there are no such limitations in the NA version. They are run by different Companys (Ncsoft in NA and Failforge in eu) and have a  very different business modell.

Indeed, I was talking about Aion EU hosted by gameforge.
I log in today to try Aion 3.5, even tho i am lvl 50 and invested 40$ in this games, i am considered just a free to play random user.

I am still not allowed to TRADE, to CHAT and to use Game auction house(broker), every time i try to do something basic i am redirected to Aion shop to buy Gold pack -.-

Seriously, i am sick of all this apparently f2p and p2win games.

F2P is amazing when done well.

1. You get to try a game out for free.
2. You can quit whenever you want and come back whenever you want.
3. The meter isn't running.
4. It is much easier to get friends to join you.
5. You can get friends or family to play that would otherwise never get value from a subscription game.
6. If you have money but no time, you have a way to speed yourself along so you can actually experience the content that otherwise you'd never have time to experience.

Your title is an opinion and if you wanted it respected, you should respect others as well.

In MY OPINION. Free to play unevens the playing field in MMORPGs and it serves as a tool to get people to try your game to pay for your game. Meaning your game is just not good enough to keep a monthly fee. Games like FFXI, WoW and many others are good enough to keep a monthly fee. That is my belief.

Tera would have  never dropped its monthly fee if it did not HAVE to. The game died after a few months because there was no end game. Nothing justified a monthly fee. So it is now opening its doors as F2P.  This is a fact.