Levels, part of older school themepark MMO model like Everquest, in which the genre was new to many people, so people really didnt know what to expect out of a MMO.

But in theory, over time, MMO gamers begun to understand the reality of MMO game play, and begun to see what Levels really are. Which is a useless time sink

This I believe started after WoW, the most popular western MMO in the world, released its first Expansion (Burning Crusade), which reminded many old vet WoW players, just how unfun it is to be weakened, and content locked, simply because of a few levels was added making your former max level character into a low level character again.

Ever sense, I have notice a large number of complaints during the launch of post WoW(TBC) MMO, in which the community tend to complain about the level grind, and how boring or slow the level grind is.

take note of games like AoC when it released. The major complaint was how after the starter area the only way to level was by mob grinding. (but in reality, isnt this the same method of leveling in older themepark mmo like Everquest? constant mob grinding) So whats the problem with that now days unless the mindset has also changed?

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Theory is simple really. More people are waking up to the truth, that Levels in themepark MMO are useless and only acts as an artificial content lock.

Instead of gaining the Key to a dungeon door to unlock the dungeon, themepark MMO make you level to unlock the dungeon. the Dungeon's Locked Door and Levels basically do the same role. locks players from content. from the fun.


Its time to move away from this kind of design.

But how many themepark MMO out there have moved away from Levels?

and just why isnt this done more often?

Character level is a arbitrary number.  You still need to progress in some way, whether it's % skill based or just acquiring skills.  TSW very much so has the soul of a "level" system with it's EXP bar; Ultima Online had player designated sayings and in game titles: "Lord Name, Grand Master of".  In addition there were "I'm a 6x GM" to designate their level up power when talking to others of how strong you were.

Ultimately having or not having numbers won't matter if it's a themepark.  You'll still have levels of power, content you can't do until you're at that plateu (no matter how it's phrased) and the same types of end game.  Only if the game is a Sandbox in spirit could it really have some semblance of being relevent as you actively change the world around you regardless of your strength.

That or the Themepark has it so you always have 100 HP and the same strength with no items that grant extra power and everything is completely relevent and difficult.

I would disagree with this.

"But in theory, over time, MMO gamers begun to understand the reality of MMO game play, and begun to see what Levels really are. Which is a useless time sink"

Not a time sink. During the leveling process you are supposed to learn to play your character. You should be honing your skills. You should learn to live on your own and how to use your skills in different combinations. During the leveling time you are effectively saying to the rest of the game - still working on it.

If you don't agree with that then you would accept grouping with people that just bought their characters that afternoon and it was their first play time? No one would if the person admitted it was their first time unless they wanted someone to carry. They especially wouldn't take them to something like a progression raid where they were figuring out strategies with the person still reading their skills.

Leveling has a point, it's for you to practice. You ever notice they don't just dump every one of your skills on you at once? They are gained thru levels so as not to overwhelm you with all the combinations... ahhhhh... now you know.

Originally posted by Yaevindusk

 

Character level is a arbitrary number.  You still need to progress in some way, whether it's % skill based or just acquiring skills.  

But you are using Levels and Progression as synonyms for each other. Which means to you, you cant have one without the other. But in Endgame of all Themepark MMO, how is progression done if leveling has stopped? Because they all do it.

TSW very much so has the soul of a "level" system with it's EXP bar;

But is level and exp bar the only way to do progression?

Ultimately having or not having numbers won't matter if it's a themepark.  You'll still have levels of power, content you can't do until you're at that plateu (no matter how it's phrased) and the same types of end game.

But is that a requirement in a themepark. That seem more like a restriction to levels that are found in most themepark MMO. not the themepark itself.

 Only if the game is a Sandbox in spirit could it really have some semblance of being relevent as you actively change the world around you regardless of your strength.

Dont need to be a sandbox to change the world. Look as some of the ways WoW and GW2 has done this. Just never in great design.

That or the Themepark has it so you always have 100 HP and the same strength with no items that grant extra power and everything is completely relevent and difficult.

And this is a requirement for not having levels?

Originally posted by Jemcrystal
Aren't levels and themepark the same thing?  Well, that and level area zones.

Levels are us going to school.

Themepark is asking your mother for advice on how to live your life once you should be on your own.

Originally posted by greenreen

I would disagree with this.

"But in theory, over time, MMO gamers begun to understand the reality of MMO game play, and begun to see what Levels really are. Which is a useless time sink"

Not a time sink. During the leveling process you are supposed to learn to play your character. You should be honing your skills. You should learn to live on your own and how to use your skills in different combinations. During the leveling time you are effectively saying to the rest of the game - still working on it.

If you don't agree with that then you would accept grouping with people that just bought their characters that afternoon and it was their first play time? No one would if the person admitted it was their first time unless they wanted someone to carry. They especially wouldn't take them to something like a progression raid where they were figuring out strategies with the person still reading their skills.

I play GW2 to level 80 on my Guardian, than started playing on my alts. I know exactly how to play.

in Rift, the expansion added 10 new levels. I had 4 max level characters from each calling. I dont need 10 new levels to learn how to play a game I already know how to play...

that old argument is moot. Levels arent needed to learn how to play a game. Especially when Endgame content isnt even taught to player nor experienced during the leveling process.

example, in Vanilla WoW, endgame consisted of Raiding for PvE and Old AV for PvP. Nether of which is done during the leveling process. So how would I learn the skills needed for those while leveling?

Originally posted by mrw0lf
It's not good enough to know you are having fun, adventuring or even progressing, you need to be able to see it. In many cases you need others to be able to see it, they need to know your number pwns theirs.

Is levels the only way to see progression?

Originally posted by Yaevindusk

 

Character level is a arbitrary number.  You still need to progress in some way, whether it's % skill based or just acquiring skills.  TSW very much so has the soul of a "level" system with it's EXP bar; Ultima Online had player designated sayings and in game titles: "Lord Name, Grand Master of".  In addition there were "I'm a 6x GM" to designate their level up power when talking to others of how strong you were.

Ultimately having or not having numbers won't matter if it's a themepark.  You'll still have levels of power, content you can't do until you're at that plateu (no matter how it's phrased) and the same types of end game.  Only if the game is a Sandbox in spirit could it really have some semblance of being relevent as you actively change the world around you regardless of your strength.

That or the Themepark has it so you always have 100 HP and the same strength with no items that grant extra power and everything is completely relevent and difficult.

I have to disagree that TSW's leveling system has anything to do with the XP bar. all the XP bar can get you is different skills. What the progression we see is players being able to do more than play with themselves in a fight.  When our EXP bar gets to full we dont suddenly get stronger. We have to allocate things to the nessessary area, usually we dont have enough to allocate so we have to wait more. And before you say our SP is our level, if you read what each level of those SP Notches is, it describes what it adds. 

As further proof that your lvl being useless is by the fact that no one asks what your SP level is in any fight. Not even in normal. Quality level can vary however quality level has little to do with your XP.

Wanna know what the elitest ask for in TSW. Experiance, thats it. When you see people asking for 4.1k Attack rateing most of them haven't a clue what they are doing. Those who i have actually had good times with had the experiance nessessary to fight.

Originally posted by MMOExposed

Originally posted by mrw0lf
It's not good enough to know you are having fun, adventuring or even progressing, you need to be able to see it. In many cases you need others to be able to see it, they need to know your number pwns theirs.

Is levels the only way to see progression?

Well no, we also have progessively proportionally larger shoulder pads. Also if your weapon doesn't glow to the point of blinding you whilst playing it just ain't going to cut it.

How exactly do I know I've won the game and can move to the forums to tell everyone how ez mode it is if I don't have a number to tell me so?

I personally disagree with it being unfun to be weakened for expansions.

walking into wolk with full sunwell gear, it has been very long since i felt vulnerable. It was nice.

I think TSW has a good mix of progression, without using the usual levels. I guess it's more that it isn't enough to have the right level of gear, but you also have to have the right mix of abilities.

Originally posted by MMOExposed

Originally posted by greenreen

I would disagree with this.

"But in theory, over time, MMO gamers begun to understand the reality of MMO game play, and begun to see what Levels really are. Which is a useless time sink"

Not a time sink. During the leveling process you are supposed to learn to play your character. You should be honing your skills. You should learn to live on your own and how to use your skills in different combinations. During the leveling time you are effectively saying to the rest of the game - still working on it.

If you don't agree with that then you would accept grouping with people that just bought their characters that afternoon and it was their first play time? No one would if the person admitted it was their first time unless they wanted someone to carry. They especially wouldn't take them to something like a progression raid where they were figuring out strategies with the person still reading their skills.

I play GW2 to level 80 on my Guardian, than started playing on my alts. I know exactly how to play.

in Rift, the expansion added 10 new levels. I had 4 max level characters from each calling. I dont need 10 new levels to learn how to play a game I already know how to play...

that old argument is moot. Levels arent needed to learn how to play a game. Especially when Endgame content isnt even taught to player nor experienced during the leveling process.

example, in Vanilla WoW, endgame consisted of Raiding for PvE and Old AV for PvP. Nether of which is done during the leveling process. So how would I learn the skills needed for those while leveling?

So, you are the person that would take someone that bought their character and didn't level it?

The one person on the planet that thinks they would know what they are doing. Riiight.

No, you knew how to play your guardian, you didn't know how to play my mesmer.

When did you mention expansions in what I quoted, oh you didn't - changing the subject.

It's not an old argument to me, first time I ever typed it out. Where is it an old argument - quote a source.

You learn how to raid by raiding with others but you don't get to be Team A when you can't even name your skills or know when to use them. That's Team B or below category. When progression groups say - the boss does this... your job then is to speak up and say what YOU can do to stop it. Everyone that spoke may then be asked "How often can you do that" and they decide when things can be staggered or used together. That's how strategies are formed.

English isn't your first language so I don't think I can read all your spelling issues to continue this and I can't believe I actually explained progression tactics to you. Seriously though, I don't think you knew them or you wouldn't retort with something so .... yeah I need to exit.

I've been toying around with the ideal for a skill based non-level MMO patterened off of Asheron's Call, GW2, WoW, TSW & SWG for a few months now.

The premise is it would have the combat style of GW2 (hybrid tab target with active dodge) The Production quality and Auction House/Mail Box and stats and UI of WoW, the skill wheel of TSW (but include many many more schools) the Housing of SWG and the majority of the game based on Asheron's Call open seemless world and experience based advancement and loot system.