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Jita (General)  » Should CCP be ashamed of themselves?

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59 posts found
  udon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/23/07
Posts: 1457

1/12/13 12:34:53 PM#21
CCP decided to focus on Dust rather than WOD and basicly put WOD on the backburner until Dust could be released.  I think WOD's ultimate fate largely depends on how dust goes.  In that regard I'm not hopeful we will ever see WOD personally.
  adam_nox

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/31/06
Posts: 1981

1/12/13 12:41:05 PM#22
EVE was more or less a lucky windfall for CCP, I don't think they understand how they made it into a cashcow, but they did, and people fall for it's BS year after year as they wait months sometimes just for one skill increase.  It's ridiculous, but a fool and his money...  So they are milking that as long as they can and hoping they can come up with a new success someday, but based on DUST they are clueless.
  MindTrigger

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/19/07
Posts: 2628

1/12/13 12:43:01 PM#23
Originally posted by udon
CCP decided to focus on Dust rather than WOD and basicly put WOD on the backburner until Dust could be released.  I think WOD's ultimate fate largely depends on how dust goes.  In that regard I'm not hopeful we will ever see WOD personally.

Then you are basically asking for the end of this game.  CCP themselves has said on multiple occasions that they know the game has to evolve further in order to be viable long term and to bring in fresh people.  It's already suffering from a lot of stagnation, and stagnation will bring boredom and the eventual decline of the game.

Dust was a ridiculous waste of time, and I don't know how they even began to dream it was going to matter.

A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.

  Garkan

Gurista

Joined: 11/03/07
Posts: 544

Thug, Thief, Killer, Pirate

 
OP  1/12/13 12:46:55 PM#24
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Garkan

If one dev can take on converting a PnP into a game thats as challenging as creating an MMO why cant CCP do it. By the way for those not getting it, if you have two challenges say climbing a mountain and running a marathon they are very different. Both are difficult in their own way and have there own complications and difficulties to overcome. I  am not comparing the challenge they both face directly I am simply saying that the RPG CD Projekt are creating is no easier than creating an MMO.

What are you basing this on, though? Can you link to pages on the scope of the two projects. There's very little on World of Darkness out and from what I read on the Cyberpunk 2077 site, they were still deciding which parts of the PnP to use and which parts to cut. I think some of us would be able to understand how you arrived at this seemingly odd conclusion if we saw what information this you used to reach it.

 

CD Projekt held a conference and discussed what they are attempting, the creator of the PnP attended too. Its not on odd conclusion when you think about it, creating any game is tough. Creating a next gen game with hugely detailed graphics is not easy. Writing enough story to fit a non linear world is not easy, getting detail into the characters is not easy. Creating game mechanics from a PnP with over four thousand pages in 44 books is hard, taking the bits you need and making them work in a live action game is fugging difficult. 
 
Finally you have to nail it all together and create the game. Non of that is easy, CyberPunk is a pretty ambitious project. It is easily as ambitious as trying to turn a PnP into an MMO. Where CyberPunk differs from World of Darkness is that in WoD you have to get multiple players in and get them balanced, infrastructure for the game is one of the difficulties. CyberPunk needs to fit its mechanics together with a non linear story, its like blending  the world detail of Morrowind with Dragon Age Origins story and character development. Both are very ambitious and difficult in their own unique way, both devs will have a tough time getting it to work.

Currently playing:

EVE online (Ruining low sec one hotdrop at a time)

Gravity Rush,
Dishonoured: The Knife of Dunwall.

(Waiting for) Metro: Last Light,
Company of Heroes II.

  Rednecksith

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/12/09
Posts: 1272

Bite my fiery metal ass!

1/12/13 12:47:43 PM#25
Yes, because they'd rather spend limited resources on an OFPS which will be dead & meaningless in 6 months (if that) than put them toward something useful for either the EVE Online or WoD Online communities.
  Cursedsei

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/17/07
Posts: 1017

1/12/13 12:49:49 PM#26
Originally posted by Garkan
Originally posted by bcrankshaw
Originally posted by Garkan
Originally posted by sketocafe
CCP is making an MMO, CD Project is making a standalone RPG. So no.

Derp, I covered that. Fact is the game CD Projekt are attempting is as complex and as challenging as creating an MMO. The challenges they face are different but both are difficult in there own way. 
 
CD Projekt are creating RPG mechanics covering over 4700 pages in 44 books, in a game filled with huge detail and no set linear path. Its basically trying to create something as detail heavy and as free formed as Morrowind combined with one of Biowares better RPGs like DA:O. The game will also have true next gen graphics. This is not something thats easily done

I don't get your point, it makes no sense

Why would CCP be ashamed because another development company is making a complex single player RPG? Should they also be embarrassed because Bethesda made Skyrim and it was sold millions of copies?

There is very little correlation technically around the development of how an MMO and a single player game is designed. So no, CCP shouldn't be ashamed

-snipping a bunch of useless stuff-

 

What you don't get, is that CCP has to continually funnel money into EvE, their only real source of income. Remember Monoclegate? That cost them funds due to loss of players, and have been scrambling to implement more player-wanted mechanics and overhauls into EvE Online.

Supporting servers, paying staff for development of new content as well as reworking what is there, it all costs money. Money that is also being used to fund Dust 514's development (Which as a F2P title means there is no guarantee of money from every player). At the time, their cash was split in three ways, EvE, Dust, and WoD.

 

Considering one of those three titles weren't even in a showable state, when money-squeezing time came, they had to throw one title on the backburner, in order to support their money makers and thus make money.

 

 

CD Projekt doesn't have that issue. At most, they pay for upkeep on a site, upkeep that is far less costly than an MMO, and doesn't require nearly as much support. They also aren't stuck constantly having to develop and update a game while trying to work on others. While there is no monthly source of income, overhead is also more than likely lower.

And nowhere has it been stated at all that developing their Cyberpunk title is as costly or hard as an MMO, so you can drop that weak bit of an opinionated argument right there. There is only one title that the Projekt's dev team Red is working on, and thats the Cyberpunk game, with rumors of a 3rd Witcher title popping up.

That's still 2 games compared to Eve's 3 (counting WoD of course).

 

So no. CCP shouldn't be ashamed of themselves, because there is no bloody reason to. You though, should certainly feel ashamed for yourself due to your lack of insight into any of this, despite you listing off what I essentially just did, as well as an obvious lack of understanding on your part towards the studios and there positions.

  ObiClownobi

Novice Member

Joined: 12/02/12
Posts: 189

1/12/13 1:10:17 PM#27
Originally posted by Garkan
Originally posted by ObiClownobi
Originally posted by Garkan
Originally posted by ObiClownobi
I think CCP have more cash than Cd project, I think CCP will release first, I base this on the same evidence you are using, the voices in my head.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=O03WLn8SzaE#t=14s

So no evidence then of your assertations?

Good Sir, you seem a very perky sort and very energetic. I am sure that instead of adding absolutely nothing to the discussion you could take the time to find out the info yourself, after all self education is the best education.

/tips hat

-Damn monocle fell out-

I am asking you to supply the evidence you are using for your assertations, without that we can only assume you are making up the facts based on the voices in your head. You made the assertations, you provide the evidence. Of course you might not be able to :)


"It's a sandbox, if you are not willing to create a castle then all you have is sand" - jtcgs

  Garkan

Gurista

Joined: 11/03/07
Posts: 544

Thug, Thief, Killer, Pirate

 
OP  1/12/13 1:30:00 PM#28
Originally posted by Cursedsei
Originally posted by Garkan
Originally posted by bcrankshaw
Originally posted by Garkan
Originally posted by sketocafe
CCP is making an MMO, CD Project is making a standalone RPG. So no.

Derp, I covered that. Fact is the game CD Projekt are attempting is as complex and as challenging as creating an MMO. The challenges they face are different but both are difficult in there own way. 
 
CD Projekt are creating RPG mechanics covering over 4700 pages in 44 books, in a game filled with huge detail and no set linear path. Its basically trying to create something as detail heavy and as free formed as Morrowind combined with one of Biowares better RPGs like DA:O. The game will also have true next gen graphics. This is not something thats easily done

I don't get your point, it makes no sense

Why would CCP be ashamed because another development company is making a complex single player RPG? Should they also be embarrassed because Bethesda made Skyrim and it was sold millions of copies?

There is very little correlation technically around the development of how an MMO and a single player game is designed. So no, CCP shouldn't be ashamed

-snipping a bunch of useless stuff-

 

What you don't get, is that CCP has to continually funnel money into EvE, their only real source of income. Remember Monoclegate? That cost them funds due to loss of players, and have been scrambling to implement more player-wanted mechanics and overhauls into EvE Online.

Supporting servers, paying staff for development of new content as well as reworking what is there, it all costs money. Money that is also being used to fund Dust 514's development (Which as a F2P title means there is no guarantee of money from every player). At the time, their cash was split in three ways, EvE, Dust, and WoD.

 

Considering one of those three titles weren't even in a showable state, when money-squeezing time came, they had to throw one title on the backburner, in order to support their money makers and thus make money.

 

 

CD Projekt doesn't have that issue. At most, they pay for upkeep on a site, upkeep that is far less costly than an MMO, and doesn't require nearly as much support. They also aren't stuck constantly having to develop and update a game while trying to work on others. While there is no monthly source of income, overhead is also more than likely lower.

And nowhere has it been stated at all that developing their Cyberpunk title is as costly or hard as an MMO, so you can drop that weak bit of an opinionated argument right there. There is only one title that the Projekt's dev team Red is working on, and thats the Cyberpunk game, with rumors of a 3rd Witcher title popping up.

That's still 2 games compared to Eve's 3 (counting WoD of course).

 

So no. CCP shouldn't be ashamed of themselves, because there is no bloody reason to. You though, should certainly feel ashamed for yourself due to your lack of insight into any of this, despite you listing off what I essentially just did, as well as an obvious lack of understanding on your part towards the studios and there positions.

 

Thread Derp MkII 
 
I listed CCPs financial position relative to CD Projekt in the OP. You also seem unaware of the costs implied in creating next Gen graphics, Epic and Crytek estimate next gen graphics will cost twice or even three times as much to create compared to this gen and will need a huge increase in development time, more artists need to work on the massive level of detail and lighting effects. The Programing behind them is also more difficult. 
 
So the graphics are a challenge enough then you marry that to a very complicated game, I will not list the challenges again to people who just do not get the challenges that Devs face when creating a game as complicated as a triple AAA next gen RPG with a world as detailed as CyberPunk will be. A game like Cyberpunk runs into the Millions. Other games with multiplatform releases easily hits $30 million, then CyberPunk has the extra costs related to its next gen graphics 
 
Good Old Games needs development time too, for example they have began converting all their titles to be guaranteed to work in windows 8. 
 
Just maintaining a website indeed, you have all the gall to call me unaware of things. You didn't have a clue about the development cost of next gen graphics nor how much a game like this would cost and you called GoG "just maintaining a website" Please do some research before trying to call me out.
 

Currently playing:

EVE online (Ruining low sec one hotdrop at a time)

Gravity Rush,
Dishonoured: The Knife of Dunwall.

(Waiting for) Metro: Last Light,
Company of Heroes II.

  Malcanis

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/17/09
Posts: 3173

"A very special kind of stupidity"

1/12/13 1:39:45 PM#29
I think possibly CCP's shame should be deferred until some actual code is released, eh?

Give me liberty or give me lasers

  Garkan

Gurista

Joined: 11/03/07
Posts: 544

Thug, Thief, Killer, Pirate

 
OP  1/12/13 2:07:11 PM#30
Originally posted by ObiClownobi
Originally posted by Garkan
Originally posted by ObiClownobi
Originally posted by Garkan
Originally posted by ObiClownobi
I think CCP have more cash than Cd project, I think CCP will release first, I base this on the same evidence you are using, the voices in my head.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=O03WLn8SzaE#t=14s

So no evidence then of your assertations?

Good Sir, you seem a very perky sort and very energetic. I am sure that instead of adding absolutely nothing to the discussion you could take the time to find out the info yourself, after all self education is the best education.

/tips hat

-Damn monocle fell out-

I am asking you to supply the evidence you are using for your assertations, without that we can only assume you are making up the facts based on the voices in your head. You made the assertations, you provide the evidence. Of course you might not be able to :)

Well considering that my post didn't need "evidence" as anything I posted is either quite obvious or quite firmly laid out as speculation, obviously speculation has no "evidence".  My post wasn't an essay or part of some coursework that needed cross referenced sources, just speculation about how one company can get a difficult project up and moving and CCP cant. You can others completely missed the point and it was well over your heads.
 
Do you need me to link evidence when I "asserted" games are challenging to develop? I thought that would be pretty obvious. Do I need to prove CCP own EVE have started WoD? Do I need to prove CD Projekt RED own GoG and are making CyberPunkl? 
 
I thought it was pretty clear that this post was speculation. People didn't get it though, its not about CD Projekt RED its about CCP. I am using CD Projekt as a comparison thats all. Let me dumb it down, if one company get their shit together and get something done why cant another.

Currently playing:

EVE online (Ruining low sec one hotdrop at a time)

Gravity Rush,
Dishonoured: The Knife of Dunwall.

(Waiting for) Metro: Last Light,
Company of Heroes II.

  ObiClownobi

Novice Member

Joined: 12/02/12
Posts: 189

1/12/13 2:09:41 PM#31
Originally posted by Garkan
Originally posted by ObiClownobi
Originally posted by Garkan
Originally posted by ObiClownobi
Originally posted by Garkan
Originally posted by ObiClownobi
I think CCP have more cash than Cd project, I think CCP will release first, I base this on the same evidence you are using, the voices in my head.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=O03WLn8SzaE#t=14s

So no evidence then of your assertations?

Good Sir, you seem a very perky sort and very energetic. I am sure that instead of adding absolutely nothing to the discussion you could take the time to find out the info yourself, after all self education is the best education.

/tips hat

-Damn monocle fell out-

I am asking you to supply the evidence you are using for your assertations, without that we can only assume you are making up the facts based on the voices in your head. You made the assertations, you provide the evidence. Of course you might not be able to :)

Well considering that my post didn't need "evidence" as anything I posted is either quite obvious or quite firmly laid out as speculation, obviously speculation has no "evidence".  My post wasn't an essay or part of some coursework that needed cross referenced sources, just speculation about how one company can get a difficult project up and moving and CCP cant. You can others completely missed the point and it was well over your heads.
 
Do you need me to link evidence when I "asserted" games are challenging to develop? I thought that would be pretty obvious. Do I need to prove CCP own EVE have started WoD? Do I need to prove CD Projekt RED own GoG and are making CyberPunkl? 
 
I thought it was pretty clear that this post was speculation. People didn't get it though, its not about CD Projekt RED its about CCP. I am using CD Projekt as a comparison thats all. Let me dumb it down, if one company get their shit together and get something done why cant another.

Thank you for clarifying, I can now answer.

No, CCP should not be ashamed because of the speculations of yourself.


"It's a sandbox, if you are not willing to create a castle then all you have is sand" - jtcgs

  Darkness690

Novice Member

Joined: 12/30/06
Posts: 176

1/12/13 2:12:04 PM#32
Cyberpunk isn't coming out until 2015.
  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 9937

I've become dependent upon spell check. My apologies for stupid grammatical errors.

1/12/13 2:19:32 PM#33

CCP has already gotten one MMO out the door, and is very close to releasing a second MMO on the console platform. Their third MMO has had development stall because of funding. Should their second game release and be successful, they will have no issues securing funding for their third MMORPG.

CD Projekt Red has had great success with a single player game, but have never produced an MMO. Whether they even get the MMO out the door remains to be seen. It also remains to be seen whether or not the game will attract an audience. They are as yet unproven in the MMO market.

Should CCP be ashamed because another developer is doing something? No.

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  Saerain

Novice Member

Joined: 3/27/06
Posts: 932

1/12/13 2:28:40 PM#34

I don't think that we can so easily say that the WoD project hasn't been going well. We don't know how it's been going.

There was some reprioritizing during the financial bottleneck when EVE players decided that a feature they'd requested in EVE since beta was some kind of betrayal to even think about. But there's been a lot of moving back to WoD since then, especially as DUST 514's development is coming to a close.

I think that if CCP has not ‘gotten its shit together’ in some regard, it's in that they failed to anticipate how schizophrenically volatile a huge part of their community would be in reaction to Incarna.

Favorites: EVE, VG, LotRO | Playing: None | Anticipating: SC, ESO, TD, EQN, WoD

  Melkrow

Novice Member

Joined: 12/06/05
Posts: 294

This is my quote.

1/12/13 2:33:47 PM#35
Originally posted by Garkan

Most EVE players know that CCP merged with White Wolf, White Wolf produced a well known and loved pen and paper RPG. CCP wanted to pick up the World of Darkness IP and make a game. It would be no exaggeration to say things have not gone so well for the project, years have passed and the test bed for it has been through its own set of problems and effectively put on the back burner. Apart from a few screens and a tasty looking trailer we have seen nothing to show us a game is anywhere near happening. 
 
Now CD Projekt RED, a small dev like CCP have announced they will be releasing their own RPG based on a PnP RPG, they are going all out and created a full team of some of their veteran devs to get the project moving. Its hard to say if CD Projekt RED have more resources than CCP, CD Projekt had an awesome success with the Witcher franchise and GoG is shaping up as a viable DRM free Steam alternative. Good Old Games is certainly not as big as Steam but its creating its own loyal fanbase bit by bit, think of Steam in 2007 and thats kinda where GoG is at. 
 
CCP have a constant income from EVE and had several multinational studios, but they fact they had financial problems is no secret and unfortunately they had to lay off a lot of staff. If I was to make a guess I would say CD Projekt had the fatter warchest. Still CCP have had year after year to get something done with World of Darkness, although an MMO and an RPG are different technically creating worlds as detailed as CD Projekt do is a whole heap of its own challenges. They are apples and oranges but both are as challenging in their own way. They are really going to push the boat out for this game too, with an amazingly detailed world and true next gen graphics. 
 
So CD Projekt Red will probably release CyberPunk 2077 long before CCP can release World of Darkness. So the question is why cant CCP, an experienced Dev create the game they have years to work on?

To answer your question, no, they should be very proud of themselves.






Playing: Darkfall Unholy Wars
Played: Darkfall, EVE, AoC, Ryzom, Ragnarok Online, GW2, PS2, Secret World, WOW, City Of Heroes/Villains, Champion Online.

  Nonderyon

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/30/07
Posts: 161

1/12/13 2:47:17 PM#36

Sorry to say, but i never seen a good mmorpg comes out from PnP, they all talked big, than stop at half way and change what the whole big want and not for the fans, losing what we liked in PnP version. (Warhammer, Neverwinter what is a Forgotten Realms D&D world...etc.)

I have no hope for a good WoD simply because they can't make it that way what WoD to be...

  Loktofeit

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 11356

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ESO, and Combat Arms

1/12/13 6:23:43 PM#37

edit: nm

 

What Obi said.

  Garkan

Gurista

Joined: 11/03/07
Posts: 544

Thug, Thief, Killer, Pirate

 
OP  1/12/13 6:31:10 PM#38
Originally posted by Loktofeit

edit: nm

 

What Obi said.

It was just an attempt at some speculative discussion about why CCP cannot get anywhere with WoD. Not a bloody college thesis. Jeez, lose some of the seriousness about how everything has evidence. You know this is a forum right? Where people post opinions?
 
Do you sit with a friend and demand they bring evidence to the discussion. Besides the info is out there, like the presentations on YouTube. They are easy enough to find, do you really need hand holding for that too?

Currently playing:

EVE online (Ruining low sec one hotdrop at a time)

Gravity Rush,
Dishonoured: The Knife of Dunwall.

(Waiting for) Metro: Last Light,
Company of Heroes II.

  ObiClownobi

Novice Member

Joined: 12/02/12
Posts: 189

1/12/13 6:36:30 PM#39
Originally posted by Garkan
Originally posted by Loktofeit

edit: nm

 

What Obi said.

It was just an attempt at some speculative discussion about why CCP cannot get anywhere with WoD. Not a bloody college thesis. Jeez, lose some of the seriousness about how everything has evidence. You know this is a forum right? Where people post opinions?
 
Do you sit with a friend and demand they bring evidence to the discussion. Besides the info is out there, like the presentations on YouTube. They are easy enough to find, do you really need hand holding for that too?

It's a simple principle, you made the statement, you provide the evidence for the statement, why would people search the Internet for information that only you say exists.

I have lost "the seriousness", I don't take what you say seriously.


"It's a sandbox, if you are not willing to create a castle then all you have is sand" - jtcgs

  Heretique

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/02/07
Posts: 941

Most of my posts get deleted.

1/12/13 6:41:51 PM#40

Honestly, whatever the reason for putting WoD on the back burner probably had to be a decent one.

CCP did a great job with EvE and they would do the same for WoD, not rush it.

Originally posted by salsa41
are you have problem ?

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