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News & Features Discussion  » [Column] General: Don't Wanna Win

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55 posts found

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/14/12
Posts: 15

1/12/13 9:25:46 PM#41
Originally posted by Ridan477
I tend to agree with almost everything said above. To me the only content that can truelly be dynamic and "never end" is player driven PvP content. PvE comes straight from what the developers creat for us and there for has an end. GW2 for however dynamic those events are really only remains so for the first go around. PvP endgame remains in my opinion the only viable option for an mmo to have a living "endless" world. Dark fall UO has an amazing concept and if a bigger developer with more money could attempt something like that I think it could be special. Risky, but special.

I think this is the reason I have gotten so hooked on Planetside 2. It's so dynamic and social because of the open, player-driven PvP, and you can just drop in, play a couple of raids on bases and log off for a while. People actually work together and their isn't really a way to "win" except to have a good time shooting some guys. It takes the social aspects of an MMO and sticks them with the simple, team-based fun of a good FPS like Battlefield 3 into something really addicting, without needing a way to "win".


Advanced Member

Joined: 7/09/04
Posts: 3590

If you can't kill it, don't make it mad.

1/12/13 9:42:21 PM#42
Originally posted by zekeofev
Originally posted by Rollgunner

I'm reminded of one of my favorite quotes from the movie Avalon, in which a Game Controller confronts one of the players in the game :


Which is the greater challenge?
Which is the better game?
Which would you choose, given the choice?

The sort of game that you think you can win, but cannot,
Or, alternatively, one that seems to be impossible, but isn’t?

Maintaining a precise, delicate balance somewhere in between,
throughout every level of the game – That’s what keeps it going.

And it is all up to us.

- Game Controller “Avalon” (2001)


I used to think this was true. Difficulty in games where you could barely beat it when you got enough combined skills/farm/reactions/luck/memory/timing done.


Now though, gamers just quit if the difficulty is too high. Even free to play games need those free players to keep the population up. The result?


You have walked around the corner! 50 XP!


You have opened up your inventory! 100 XP!


You have used a skill! 200 XP!


You died and found the graveyard where we instantly return you to the boss fight and don't regen its hp! 500 XP!


Do MMOs need to be entirely hard? no. But I miss chalenges with a point to them. WoW used to be like that with the design of its hard mode BC dungeons when they were first introduced. Seriously to clear some of thoses bosses it took really strong 5 man coordination. Few of the trash was tankable and had to be kited around by the dps. Double healer was mandatory on the bosses. Etc.


Now dungeons are measured by TIME and not DIFFICULTY. I want content that prioritizes the 2nd and not the 1st (and not the 3rd option, cash shop money spent, either)

I really know what you mean, but given the demographic changes we've seen, and the profit focus, it can't be any other way.

Even the general gaming audience has changed, as we've all grown older.  Couple that with the general population, that we are seeing more of in games, and if the bar isn't lowered (way down...) they will just go do something else.

I was very competitive game wise, when I was younger. But these days, I just don't have the focus, or the energy for that any more.  Thats why I've moved from PvP to PvE.  People change, if the games being offered don't, they aren't going to remain profitable.


Novice Member

Joined: 7/01/04
Posts: 80

1/13/13 1:34:51 PM#43

This opinon piece squarely delineates why MMOs are failing right and left. For the past ten years, almost every designer has caved to consumer pressure to make all content attainable quite quickly after release. There's an truism these whiney gamers need to learn, "Protect me from what I want."


  User Deleted
1/13/13 3:43:51 PM#44

Today while i was playing Aion, we talked in our legion chat just about the same.

That how we hate the fact that there is an endgame and at the same time there is none.

Because for example, in Aion, (but im prety sure 99% of the title's on the market) endgame means endless grind in endgame instances in order to prepare for the upcoming content just to repeat the sequence again when the lvl cap is raised.

Many of us agreed in that, we would be so happy to play a game, that doesn't have any leveling system at all nor would be mindless gear grind. Because every instance is fun even at the 10th time but when you entered it more then a hundred times and you still doesn't have the desired item, it's just gets boring, and when you acquire it, you loose interest in the place.

I hope i live long enough to see an mmorpg that doesn't implement these kind of things. That is a huge world to explore and fight monsters, but the items you can acquire doesn't make you invincible compared to beginners. Is something like second life, but slightly different set up in a fantasy world. Sorry for my English. (i blame the ones i learned from while playing mmorpg's). ^^



Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/19/11
Posts: 540

1/13/13 4:19:26 PM#45

Said that about 10 years ago just not in those words.

What you are now experiencing is the age change where you crave a deeper immersion value than just killing monsters. You now want to become part of a virtual reality that you feel like you REALLY are a part of it. You really want the Virtual World that you can't find becasue it does not exist.

Building a MMO GAME and building a VIRTUAL WORLD are not the same thing and the risks of failure is far to high for investors so this is a catch 22

Good luck on your search and if you find one let me know,

  User Deleted
1/13/13 4:39:12 PM#46

Ever since i play mmorpg games i felt this way, do not ask why am i keep on going.

Now and then there is a few great idea (atleast i love them) but they are sentenced to death.

As the "casual" (not sure if it's the right word) player is not interested in them.

For example there was a game where you had to say out the spells you wanted to cast.

The game used voice regognition and it sounded prety muyh like fun, but somehow i never get to play it. Probably because even tho the idea sounded great, i couldn't tell the same about other aspects of the game. As you say new ideas are always risky. And this is why i see a few great ideas in many games but they somehow just isn't enough to sell them to me. Because everything else in the game is the same as in every other  title. It just feels sad and it seems like developers running out of ideas meanwhile this isn't true. we, the players aren't open to them.


Novice Member

Joined: 12/02/03
Posts: 24

1/13/13 10:39:04 PM#47

Escapist here...don't care about the End Game arguments.  Not a completionist either...  My main character in LOTRO is only level 66 and I've been playing since release of Shadow of Angmar! -)




Elite Member

Joined: 5/24/10
Posts: 1282

1/13/13 11:44:34 PM#48
Originally posted by NorseGod
Originally posted by Freezzo
Originally posted by NorseGod


I think it's more that the whole gaming market and the MMO market has been opened up to wider audiences, who have the time nor the interest to invest into the world and their characters. I know plenty of people that play MMORPGs casually and like the rewarding systems and what's not, but fear a more complex game takes too much of their time or doesn't lead to fast fun. Most of these people are working/parents/whatever and not the generation of 20-year olds (I'm 21 FYI) that you claim them to be. As far as I know most of them play LoL and CoD. I'm sure it's spread over the whole spectrum, because I'm sure I just haven't met those of my age yet that only do stuff for rewards. And for the last statement I do agree and that's why it's probably best for an indie dev to pull something like that off.

So basically, because people decide to have a kid, my gaming experience has to be dumbed down? Don't you think that you have enough MMOs to choose from already, that you allow one good MMORPG? We're not playing your games anyways, so it's not like you're forcing us to migrate to yours or that you'll lose population.

You are correct though. I can't argue with your points made.

I'm just asking for someone that loves MMORPGs to make a good one for the few that have been waiting years. Not by a gaming company that only makes MMOs for the money.

I'd rather host a game that has 450K dedicated MMORPG gamers (which was the norm back then), than host a WoW clone, hoping to make WoW income but only have 50K players at best and on the edge of shutting down or going F2P every single quarter (which is what is going on today).

Yes, in reality, you are correct. But, let me tell you my opinion in regards to what you are describing.

Ever seen the movie Casino?

Remember when they started out in Vegas? There was a niche group of people that went to Vegas. They wore expensive suits, drove expensive cars. They ate gourmet foods. The management demanded high quality and the customers just assumed to get high quality.

At the end of the movie, the hotels were demolished and turn into themepark hotel casinos for the masses. Remember the scene when the huge gaggle of fat people, wearing Wal-mart clothes, kids, picking their noses walking through the doors? The quality went to crap, all-you-can-eat buffets in every casino, etc etc. I actually felt a sense of death in that scene.

That's what I think about when I read the "progress" of MMORPGs turning into MMOs to become more accessible for the lowest common denominator. Which by the way, when you cater to the lowest common denominator, you have to lower the bar.


Post of the month as far as i'm concerned.  He basically said what i've been trying to say for months but in a far better way.  I always tried to use the example of a race car being eventually turned into a minivan because people complained about this or that aspect, and slowly it got changed into something it wasn't, yet the people driving the minivans on the racetrack still think they're racers.  Anyways, read his post, excellent and 100% to the point.


"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."

- Friedrich Nietzsche

  User Deleted
1/14/13 2:24:33 AM#49

I feel it somehow different.

Many of the games that became free to play eventually turned into pay to win.

Giving the advantage over everyone else to those who can afford it.

Turning the masses into cannon fodder in the hands of "rich kids".

The problem is that 99% of the games on the market are like this.

Many of the games are designed to be easy but time consuming.

You don't have to face big obstacles nor you have to solve mysteries in order to progress in the story (if it even has). You just login every day repeat the same sequence over and over and you reach the endgame eventually. Every time i read news about an upcoming title it isfilled with promises. That this game has many new ideas and it is sooooo original, but in the end is like any other with different graphics.


Advanced Member

Joined: 7/09/04
Posts: 3590

If you can't kill it, don't make it mad.

1/14/13 8:59:00 AM#50
Originally posted by iddqdnoclip

I feel it somehow different.

Many of the games that became free to play eventually turned into pay to win.

Giving the advantage over everyone else to those who can afford it.

Turning the masses into cannon fodder in the hands of "rich kids".

The problem is that 99% of the games on the market are like this.

Many of the games are designed to be easy but time consuming.

You don't have to face big obstacles nor you have to solve mysteries in order to progress in the story (if it even has). You just login every day repeat the same sequence over and over and you reach the endgame eventually. Every time i read news about an upcoming title it isfilled with promises. That this game has many new ideas and it is sooooo original, but in the end is like any other with different graphics.

Your above, just about described how real life is organized...  Games replicating real life? Perhaps that is what all too many people have been conditioned to want/expect?  Most people default to the familiar in just about everything, and that includes their choices for entertainment.

The games we've spoken of in the past, require a mind set that is becoming more and more rare, these days.  It requires even more of that mind set (and technical knowledge/experience) to create those types of games.  Given what these games cost to create, its no wonder that they are pointed at the largest demographic possible.  With the results we've all seen.

I wish I could say that it will get better eventually, but its not looking that way at this point.  Perhaps once these games don't cost many, many millions to create, there will be room for such games again. " Its a fools hope, but its the only hope we have..."


Advanced Member

Joined: 4/29/10
Posts: 2813

1/14/13 10:46:26 AM#51
It's interesting that you mention FFVII as that game had a ton of optional, hidden stuff to discover before beating the game.  I did some of it but preferred finishing the story so I could move on to the next great game to play.
  User Deleted
1/14/13 11:11:29 AM#52


I know the reason, but i just can't accept it.

Regardless of it, as you said (" Its a fools hope, but its the only hope we have...")


Advanced Member

Joined: 8/28/05
Posts: 672

1/14/13 11:39:59 AM#53
Small scale wins are fine. I just don't want to a "Save the world" storyline.  I don't need the dragon and ORR in GW2. I would be happy doing a personal story about my inventions and maybe becoming the head of some org.

Smaller wars, like Centaur vs humans or plants vs undead are all well and good, but the overreaching Dragon War? Pointless.  Oh and I am so tried of having a game tell me I am the MOST important person in the whole world and only I can save it.

When you set up a Big Boss then by default you are creating an end to your game, but its an mmo so what happens?  The war ends, but it doesn't really. ORR is still there, still fighting, so what was the point?  You make a game where you want people to keep playing, so why do you make an endpoint? It makes no sense.

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/26/09
Posts: 1169

1/14/13 11:58:38 AM#54
Originally posted by Ridan477
I tend to agree with almost everything said above. To me the only content that can truelly be dynamic and "never end" is player driven PvP content. PvE comes straight from what the developers creat for us and there for has an end. GW2 for however dynamic those events are really only remains so for the first go around. PvP endgame remains in my opinion the only viable option for an mmo to have a living "endless" world. Dark fall UO has an amazing concept and if a bigger developer with more money could attempt something like that I think it could be special. Risky, but special.

When you say PvP do you mean just the combat side?

You see for me, the above statement is what is wrong with development. Games today see there being PvE and PvP as meaning fighting monsters or fighting players. I think that basic philosophy of game design is what is wrong. The PvE world and the PvP world are not seperate. Killing a wolf is considered PvE, but killing the wolf to skin it and sell the fur to another player is both.

I want a game that doesn't enable PvE/PvP flags. There is what you can do and what you cannot do.


The old saying "give a man a fish, he eats for a day, teach him how to fish he eats for life" comes to mind. The problem is game developers seem to spend all their time crating the quests and buildings and backstory etc when they should be focused on giving players skills to make quests and buildings and backstory.

For example. Rather then make an NPC, stick them in the world, give them a name, give them a scripted conversation, give them a quest to give out at the end of the conversation to kill 10 wolves......have a system that lets players create quests like to create a quest to kill 10 wolves.

Dont spend months building loads of content that a player will only use for perhaps the first 8 hours of the game then is redundent for the rest of the game. Either don't spend time on it or fill it with stuff that gets used at all levels. Or don't build level/gated content.

  User Deleted
1/14/13 2:14:31 PM#55

Is funny because Aion is being advertised as a PvPvE game, which supposed to mean that there is 3 opposite faction. Two controlled by players and the third is npc (balaur race).

It sounds cool, but in reality it means, you agro the entire map while you are chasing the opposite faction and die to mobs while you are trying to pvp.

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