|24 posts found|
OP 1/09/13 8:00:58 AM#1
I WANT TO MAKE AN INDIE MMORPG!!!
Your reaction: "You do, do you? You must be: a) naive and stupid, or b) naive and stupid. "
That's a definate possibility.
I'm only 18 and I have no programming expierience, so I must be completely off my rocker right?
So... if you plan on sticking around please hear me out and try not to be too critical of my noobiness.
The first video game I ever played was Pokemon Yellow. I loved it, I still love it.
My first MMORPG was WoW, I started during WotLK, my friend Alpha introduced me to it (Yes, his legal name really is Alpha). I'm majoring in Graphic Design at UIUC, etc... etc... So... I want to take the big leap and make my own game. I'm not seriously suggestiong that I can make a game like WoW by myself, even I realize the impossibilities of that.
However, I do believe I can make a 2D or 2.5D game.
I'll give you an example of what I'm aiming for: Pokemon World Online or PokemonMMO
No, it won't be a monster-capture game, or a Poke-Clone. I heard a small indie team built PWO from the ground up, I think that's kind of cool and inspirational. I wouldn't waste my time on this if I didn't think it was a definate possibility AND it was worth it. In attempting to do this I'm sacrificing a HUGE chunk of my social life. So... if you don't want to crush my dreams there are a few things I'd like to know...
1.) WHAT PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE SHOULD I LEARN AND CODE THE GAME IN?
I don't plan on making a game engine. If you suggest a language can you explain why I should use it? From what I've read it seems the best thing to go with is C++, though I don't know why.
2.) CAN YOU OFFER SOME REALLY IN-DEPTH VIDEO TUTORIALS?
Tuts on anything from C++ to game menu design, it would be grately appreciated.
3.) WHAT ENGINE DO YOU RECOMMEND? Unity? RPG Maker? Game Maker?
And why that one?
4.) ANY WORDS OF ENCOURAGEMENT/ADVICE?
I'd love to hear them.
WHY AM I DOING THIS?
I'm probably a masochist /laugh
No, seriously. I just have to. I have this ideal image of an MMO in my mind and I think, not only will I have fun making it but others will have fun playing it. There are worst things I could be doing. If you crush my dreams now I could end up a hobo on the streets. Can you live with that (kidding)? I think one of the biggest reasons is feeling incomplete or unsatisfied, there's so much potiential in MMOs but its wasted. My character's in MMOs are never quite how I imagine them to be. For instance, why can't my character just be a tailor? I should be able to purchase a house, turn it into a personal shop and supply everyone in the game with badass gear that's actually worth wearing. And in the process gain recognition throughout the server, I shouldn't have to always fight. Not that I don't like fighting... This may offend some but, PvP is 1000x better than PvE. My first and only class in WoW is a Lock, I've never gotten bored with my class, not once. People didn't recommend it as a first class but I couldn't have cared less. HOW CAN YOU PASS UP DEMONS?! At 70 I was facerolling fully geared lvl 80s in Wrath. So, I strongly believe PvE shouldnt be the only means to the strongest gear, PvP is just as important. You should be able to get a legendary weapon through PvP!!
YOU DONT RECOMMEND THIS?
If you think this is idiotic I can understand why. But, if so, please have a GOOD reason why, and not because it cost a crap-ton of money or I'm inexpierienced. No one was born knowing everything, we all learned at some point. Lastly, if your thinking... "Why don't you just change your major," the answer is:
1/09/13 2:07:42 PM#2
IHMO, I think you should probably start learning with C++, after you learn all the basics of programming, switch to another language (Something high-level like Python), the come back to C++ for doing 3D stuff.
- When you lean other languages, often the tutorials expect you already know C++.
- If you know C++, you can kinda understand code written in any other language in the C family of languages, also lots of languages outside the C family are also influenced by C.
- In C++ it takes a lot longer to write something than it would in a high-level language.
- Do-it-yourself garbage collection
No, for programming I avoid video tutorials like the plague. Code is text, video tutorials leave you squinting at your screen trying to read blurry text from a paused video frame...
For 2D games, right now I'm using the Pygame engine, which I like a lot.
Orge3D - (IMHO) with it's addons, it's currently the most powerful open-source 3D engine, however it's also very complexed and complicated, and has a steep learning curve, but has a very active forum community.
Irrlicht - Almost as powerful as Ogre, and is being developed at a steady pace. Irrlicht is very organized and logical, has good documentation.
Programming is fun and interesting, and also aggravating sometimes. There's moments when you jump for joy when something works and moments when you smash your head into your keyboard.
1/09/13 2:54:40 PM#3
Golden rule for programming to people who have no experience - Aim Low, Write the Code 3 times. First time checking if it could work, 2nd time making it work, 3rd time coding it with the knowledge you learned from making it work.
I suggest just going for c# and XNA. This is because there are a TON of xna tuts for making games. Seriously a TON.
Edit: I suggest not using an engine first since you need to learn how to code first o.o
Also, dont use video tuts. Use text tuts. Highlight + CTRL C is useful.
''/\/\'' Posted using Iphone bunni
1/10/13 8:21:49 AM#4
A note to add, C++ is a high-level language. It's not machine code or assembly.
Here's another thread on the subject.
3/08/13 1:18:33 PM#5
Not exactly on topic but why not look at something like PlaneShift to get some experiance befor going it on your own.
3/09/13 6:54:20 PM#6
Going to answer this on first because it is apparent that you have no clue to what a MMORPG requires. Since it takes anywhere from 20,0000 to 100,000 man hours to create a decent competitive commercial MMORPG, You need to build a team that is willing to work for you and be consistent in putting out the end product. Most you can expect for non-paid people is a couple hours a week or you doing double/triple shift and carrying the heavy work load by yourself. With 10 people working 2 hours each a week you would be lucky to finish before you reach retirement so you need to be blunt and to the point that it is serious business when people join up which keeps most away.
The exception is that later when it is nearing completion there will be more people wanting in since they can see the end product may actually make them some money. I see this too and don’t offer the same package as the core team gets. So you need to shop the web and find the right people that have the same vision as you. It may take awhile but there are others that share the desire and willing to go the route you will take.
If advice has not scared you off then
1.) Depends on engine
2.) Google is your best friend
3.) Hero Engine – because there is a community that can help you learn it.
3/09/13 7:23:07 PM#7
If you're serious, here's something that's worth trying.
Step 4 is the hardest. Most aspiring 'indie' devs probably couldn't do it, however if a person can't complete one of the most basic single player games, there is no way they'll ever lead a team of multiple people toward completing one of the most complex multiplayer games that devs could possibly attempt to design.
3/09/13 7:46:52 PM#8
Never understood why one had to keep reinventing the wheel except for their own sake of difficulty but then most are fixed on making a clone of something existing anyway.
Sometimes cut and paste has advantages but the blineders are always on for the guy that believes if you didn't kill the beef and process the hamburger then you should not eat a hamburger.
3/09/13 9:01:07 PM#9
C++ is the best because it very powerful and it is an industry standard. many relevant APIs and libraries are written in C++.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0kpSiitk4eI game engine c++/directx
http://thenewboston.org/tutorials.php excellent c++
http://www.3dbuzz.com/ good unity tutorials
http://www.gamedev.net/page/index.html good forum for questions and help
assuming you are poor and you cannot afford a full source license for any commercial game engine, it would be best to make your own engine. making a 2d game engine is not very difficult. if you wish do not wish to make your own engine i would recommend unity simply because it is cheap and it has a huge userbase = good support.
dont be overambitious. 2d mmorpg with simple graphics (retro, minecraft, shape etc) is an acheivable goal but it is really pushing it for someone of your skill level. break the game down into components and work on them one at time. first maybe build your framework, then add a player, give him movement, give him attacks. add another player and attack him. add multiplayer so both players can be controlled by real people. etc etc
you should do whatever you feel like doing. if making mmorpgs makes your happy then do it.
3/09/13 11:12:19 PM#10
Originally posted by ArChWind
It's not a matter of re-inventing the wheel but of being able to create and complete a basic game. A non-programmer could, of course, copy the code, change some strings and say they 'completed' a program. That's not the point of the exercise. Was that really your takeaway from all that? And was the 'blinders' insult necessary?
3/09/13 11:23:16 PM#11
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Not really. But I am on the offensive lately since many are coming down on the fact existing engines have basic code to assist and not being sure where you directed this as to all indies using existing engines it tended to ruffle feathers. :).
3/09/13 11:47:26 PM#12
Originally posted by ArChWind
What you use to create your MMO is irrelevant. My post was to get him to consider just making a basic game first. Most starry-eyed 'indie' devs can't even complete that but they think they have the ability or knowledge to tackle an MMORPG.
ArChWind, think of your own profession, whatever that may be. Now consider one of the most involved and complex multi-discipline projects you or your company has taken on. If someone with no experience in any of the disciplines and no experience in the particular field said they wanted to tackle a project like that, what would your advice to them be? Would it be:
a) You can do it if you really set your mind to it!
b) Try [very basic project] first. If you can do that successfully, then move on to the bigger stuff.
c) Other. (Please explain)
The comparison of "Why will someone prefer what I make over what is already out there" from before and after the project is one of the best assessments a person new to the field can do. More importantly, it helps the person recognize not only how little they knew before but how much more they know now. It's one of the reasons game devs do post mortems, ArChWind. If people that have been developing games for 5, 10, even 30 years can still learn from that exercise, sure as anything someone that doesn't know a damn thing to start can. :)
3/10/13 12:06:54 AM#13
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Why? Because to get a project out the door they need to get involved in one that is complex and challenging first and not try to bang their head against the brick walls some of the developers have faced over the last decade.
The second question is kind of loaded Lok.
If it don't exist how can you make a copy of it? One needs to apply a lot different logic when they face the unknown and that is why some prefer to take on the challenge even if it does fail at least they tried.
3/10/13 12:17:47 AM#14
Originally posted by ArChWind
Please tell me that by 'get involved in one that is complex and challenging first' you mean work with others on their projects and not that they should dive into leading the creation of an MMO with zero programming, networking, 3D modelling, etc background. If the former, then you are giving the same advice that I gave just a different path to it. If the latter, then - based on the question I presented and the answer you gave - you probably do a job where you could easily be replaced by a monkey.
Now, before you go zoo over that last statement, really think about it. I mean REALLY think about it.
EDIT: When you refer to 'the second question' I take it you are referring to "Why will someone prefer what I make over what is already out there?" The question is not about specific features but about the quality, performance, feature set, support and all the other factors involved. You're working on making a game, so I'd really suggest you try that, as well. Write the aswers to that now. When your game is done, step back and look at it from a consumer's view and answer the question again. I assure you, it will be an eye opener.
The Critical Hit Pretzel!
3/10/13 12:34:22 AM#15
Let me crush your dreams first off in saying Pokemon themed MMO will get your ass sued so quickly and shut down.
Still, an Idie MMo, particular one man will be near impossible to pull off and you will need a good investment in order to pull it off due to requiring servers in order to host things on. This also means rather then just code, you need to handle netcode which a whole nother beast.
My advice? Do NOT shoot for an MMo first. if you want to try coding out, do a single player game and test the waters. MMos require stuff that other games have BUT also the investment in servers/networking and netcode in order to provide good connection allowing people to actually play together without heavy issues ruining the game (something seen in even lobby based games, MMOs are even worst).
Dream crusher I am perhaps, but its better for you to see that your dream is just not going to work or if it did happen with the 'pokemon' deal you nudged at its going to fall flat, and if MMO is your first coding project I'd pretty willingly bet thousands of dollars against you it does any good. Work on single player games, then perhaps adding multiplayer elements into games before finally going with an MMo, and only once you have investment for a good server and internet connection.
3/10/13 12:45:40 AM#16
Originally posted by Loktofeit
You are 100% correct on the please tell me part and the second part too.
No doubt about that. Some jobs however require only monkeys so they are exempt.
Second question as I said is loaded and missdirected.
EDIT: we agree in in this case just in different ways.
3/10/13 8:57:26 AM#17
Why are you trying to learn all the hard lessons as a leader of a project? Join someone else's team, success or not you'll learn a bunch of lessons, and if successful you'll actually have some clout.
Why haven't you asked the most basic question of: Why should I be the leader of a team(instead of finding one)?.
The most powerful reasons to use C++ are null for indie development. The raw power of a programming language is really only hit in large teams working full time, which is the opposite what you'll end up doing. C++ is really really big with many ways to do even the most basic tasks, meaning that as people enter/leave the project the costs of starting/maintaining code is higher(Indy and large(projects) means you'll have a lot of churn of people).
However there is one really compelling reason to stick with C++ in Indy development that's limited to experienced teams, and it's that you plan on using it for your portfolio.
You're better off with far more approachable languages. C# W/ XNA you can see results in a couple of weekends(even in cases where experienced programmers are just learning the language), in Java any programming student coming out of school will know your language, in Python just about anyone who programs for fun will have learnt it(or plan on it someday).
Practice doesn't make perfect, practice makes permanent.
You can't spell 'broken' without 'ok'
3/10/13 10:07:11 AM#18
Originally posted by anemo
This seems like some sound advice.
OP 3/11/13 11:32:11 PM#19
Thanks everyone for the links, tips, support, and advice.
As for the naysayers I am not making a "pokemon-clone" not even close. Reread my above post -.-
And I agree, I've decided to make it a 1player game to get my feet wet and if people at my college like it and i can assemble a more advanced team then I MIGHT venture into those waters. But, I have friends who have some spare time who can make models or anything else I a need. So I'm not exactly making it completely alone.
OP 3/11/13 11:33:28 PM#20
Oh and yes, I have made a rather basic game. A pac-man game, tetris, and others. nothing too amazing. but i think im gettin there.