Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by maskedweasel

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
 

 

"world' does not make better games.

Actually it does for a) some people and b) for some games.

Originally posted by Iselin

Originally posted by xaithian

     Great games have always and will always be created by true gamers and fans.  Not big corporations.  

Great brain surgery is performed by people who need brain surgery.... great football is played by the Budwiser swilling football fans... great books are written by people who read lots of books... great singers come from people who watch American Iidol...

See how idiotic that is?

The lack of appreciation for the talent of good game developers in these forums is just mind boggling.

 

Henceforth, January 9th is Developer Appreciation Day.  I'll send them an e-card that sings "For He's a Jolly Good Fellow".

Not liking the games that are being made is not personal.  I've worked for companies that I hated their product.

Have yet to see an indie game that lasts a few minutes after launch or even makes it to launch in some cases.

The problem isn't the gamers it's the developers who've let the $$ go to their heads. For example, how many times have we been promised something in an interview and then shortly after launch the game is nothing like it's been promised because they decided 2 months into the game's lifetime to suddenly change their direction entirely? These so called Devs get in there and see the money flowing in and suddenly forget completely why they are there or their own experiences in MMOs in the past. Or they are just calling themselves gamers and making us thing they actually remember the problems from MMO's in the past.

It just happened with GW2. So many of us casuals who enjoy farming, the open world, and a more horizontal gear progression were completely baffled by Anet deciding to invent a gear gap that wasn't necessary or wanted and make all of the drops for anything come out of only two dungeons while nerfing the holy hell out of every worldly event they put into the game and failing to add the very thing they said they would add (instead of dungeons), Open world meta events with great rewards.

I just shook my head and went back to STO and TorchLight II. 

nope, it them
if they will keep thinking that making 1 more clone of good game will bring them money, they will continue to do it, but as nobody will love these games anymore, they gonna loose money = fail.
I don't fail when need NEW game and not overeaten sock.

Originally posted by xaithian

     Great games have always and will always be created by true gamers and fans.  Not big corporations.  And they are not created overnight, be either of the two.  If you look you will find many "indie" games created all the time.  Many titles are created and spawn all the time.  So if you want companies to stop making crappy games start supporting the little guy.

     Or go back to school and learn to program or texture or create 3D models or write stories or quote literature.'

     The more new hyped titles you buy the more they will make and that will never change.  Kind of like global warming, every fart heats the planet.

 I've actually been buying some single player indie games lately from Steam.  I find them refreshing.  But the triple A mmos are created by coporations.  I'm not sure where you got the idea they weren't, that's just silly.

I think as computer tech and gaming evolves it has elevated our expectations.  This is just a natural progression.  I didn't buy a nice gaming rig to play Pacman graphics. 

And going back to school to study gaming is one of those silly arguments.  I think Nasa has really bungled space exploration.  I guess I should start my own space agency then.  Or I had pneumonia one time and the doctor didn't take a sputum culture and I think the antibiotics were the wrong ones because they did absolutely nothing.  I guess as soon as I was feeling better I should have enrolled in medical school using your logic.

I am a gamer.  I game.  I do not create games.  I admire those who do though... 

Originally posted by Lovely_Laly

nope, it them
if they will keep thinking that making 1 more clone of good game will bring them money, they will continue to do it, but as nobody will love these games anymore, they gonna loose money = fail.
I don't fail when need NEW game and not overeaten sock.

Is it ironic the title is about the individual failing?  (just a question, never sure when I'm supposed to appreciate some things)

Laly, maybe you should read the OP before you post as in the Original Post or the first post in the thread. 

Originally posted by Lovely_Laly

nope, it them
if they will keep thinking that making 1 more clone of good game will bring them money, they will continue to do it

The trouble is, as a general rule, it does.

but as nobody will love these games anymore, they gonna loose money = fail.
 

The trouble is, they as a general rule, they don't.

I've put a toe into several indie MMOs, and didn't find much to like about them.  Good intentions and love of gaming go a long way, but those things don't pay development costs.  If the players are buying mediocre games, it's because there aren't many alternatives.  You can't blame people for drinking too much Coca-Cola when the only other option is RC.

Eventually, the Next Big Thing will arrive and it'll catch everyone off guard.  Maybe it'll come from the crowdfunding movement, or maybe one of the big game publishers will get sick of hasty F2P conversions. 

Heres my take on the "industry" failing.

To make large, complex, smooth preforming, and visually stunning mmorpgs...you need a shitload of money, time and employees to do this.  During the long development process you are making zero dollars.

The origional RPG community to which these games use to cater to is small.  Catering to just this community brought us EQ, DAOC, Anarchy, and other first generation mmorpgs...the ones people still talk about today as getting it right.

However, to support the game industries, they needed to expand past this smaller niche community. WOW was the first game to break the barrier, it did so by doing what other games did before it, making shit easier, making endgame the focus, and making the trip to get to engame as quick and easy as possible.  Getting to endgame was something that the dumbest of the dumb could achieve.

The plan worked.  Now, nearly a decade later, the mmocommuniy has swelled in numbers.  Only problem, all the games out there follow the same priciples of catering to the largest gamer segment as possible...seems the only thing that stuck as far as the niche RPG crowd catering was the lore and look (fantasy mix of old warhammer lore and old D&D lore) and even now that all has been beaten to death.

There are a few games out there being made by indy developers that are trying to bring back what made mmorpgs great, but sadly they all will fail due to the inability of a small development team to make a polished and unique mmorpgs in a reasonable amount of time.

So this is what we get now, beautiful looking games, relative amount of polish, zero soul and zero uniquness...all the have to do is say "innovative, groundbreaking, revolutionary" and a few million gamers will pick up the game at full box price only to leave it in a month or two after completely clearing all the content...

I just remember back when it was single player RPG games, and they were awesome but it sucked to beat it and then what.  When mmorpgs came out it promised an RPG that never ended.  Those were the great mmorpgs.  Now every mmorpg is heavy on MMO and not on RPG...its just a race to the endgame treadmills...

So its not really the players fault.  I honestly believe, and on this site specifically, that 75% of these mmorpg gamers would be far happier playing non RPG games, and then RPG developers could go back to making long ("grind"), complex, and difficult mmorpgs where not everyone got to the end, and where people made mistakes that hurt progression and character development..where death in game was feared...mmorpgs you had to spend months reading about to understand what you need to do ect.  We can then do away with these mmo's for dummies with 1hr of free time a day and who have to reach the end of content in a month or they rage.

The rest of us who enjoy complex and difficult mmorpgs have to settle playing a waterd down mmo that looks like an RPG because we need to get those who hate difficulty and progression into the game to support it looking nice and being modern.  Which leaves the RPG crowd unsatisfied, but also leaves the huge segment of other gamers unhappy because the game isnt action enough, or player skill based enough, or they have to do repetative things (despite the games they come from are even more repetative than mmorpgs)

I thought this was going to be about something else.

I thought this was going to be about how "you" just dont want to play MMOs anymore

I thought this was going to be about something that was/is very similar to my feelings towards MMOs in general

I thought this was going to be about how my "golden days" of playings MMOs and gaining enjoyment where over because i for some reason i enjoy the concept of them more then playing the games themselves now.

I thought this was going to be about me

I thought.

Originally posted by Crunchy222

Heres my take on the "industry" failing.

To make large, complex, smooth preforming, and visually stunning mmorpgs...you need a shitload of money, time and employees to do this.  During the long development process you are making zero dollars.

The origional RPG community to which these games use to cater to is small.  Catering to just this community brought us EQ, DAOC, Anarchy, and other first generation mmorpgs...the ones people still talk about today as getting it right.

However, to support the game industries, they needed to expand past this smaller niche community. WOW was the first game to break the barrier, it did so by doing what other games did before it, making shit easier, making endgame the focus, and making the trip to get to engame as quick and easy as possible.  Getting to endgame was something that the dumbest of the dumb could achieve.

The plan worked.  Now, nearly a decade later, the mmocommuniy has swelled in numbers.  Only problem, all the games out there follow the same priciples of catering to the largest gamer segment as possible...seems the only thing that stuck as far as the niche RPG crowd catering was the lore and look (fantasy mix of old warhammer lore and old D&D lore) and even now that all has been beaten to death.

There are a few games out there being made by indy developers that are trying to bring back what made mmorpgs great, but sadly they all will fail due to the inability of a small development team to make a polished and unique mmorpgs in a reasonable amount of time.

 

So this is what we get now, beautiful looking games, relative amount of polish, zero soul and zero uniquness...all the have to do is say "innovative, groundbreaking, revolutionary" and a few million gamers will pick up the game at full box price only to leave it in a month or two after completely clearing all the content...

I just remember back when it was single player RPG games, and they were awesome but it sucked to beat it and then what.  When mmorpgs came out it promised an RPG that never ended.  Those were the great mmorpgs.  Now every mmorpg is heavy on MMO and not on RPG...its just a race to the endgame treadmills...

 

So its not really the players fault.  I honestly believe, and on this site specifically, that 75% of these mmorpg gamers would be far happier playing non RPG games, and then RPG developers could go back to making long ("grind"), complex, and difficult mmorpgs where not everyone got to the end, and where people made mistakes that hurt progression and character development..where death in game was feared...mmorpgs you had to spend months reading about to understand what you need to do ect.  We can then do away with these mmo's for dummies with 1hr of free time a day and who have to reach the end of content in a month or they rage.

The rest of us who enjoy complex and difficult mmorpgs have to settle playing a waterd down mmo that looks like an RPG because we need to get those who hate difficulty and progression into the game to support it looking nice and being modern.  Which leaves the RPG crowd unsatisfied, but also leaves the huge segment of other gamers unhappy because the game isnt action enough, or player skill based enough, or they have to do repetative things (despite the games they come from are even more repetative than mmorpgs)

/signed

I agree completely. very nice summation.

Originally posted by Terranah

And going back to school to study gaming is one of those silly arguments.  I think Nasa has really bungled space exploration.  I guess I should start my own space agency then.  Or I had pneumonia one time and the doctor didn't take a sputum culture and I think the antibiotics were the wrong ones because they did absolutely nothing.  I guess as soon as I was feeling better I should have enrolled in medical school using your logic.

 

But that's exactly how the world works - if you think something can be done better, you do it better.  That's why we have the X-prizes for private space flights - because people with resources are tired of waiting for NASA to do everything.

I'm fine with opinionated gamers (goodness knows I'm one of them) - the problem is when we start getting mad at the industry and become loud and demanding about it.  We get a choice between all the games which the industry offers (and, on the rare occasion we catch an insider's ear, we ramble on), but we have no *right* to our ideal game.  We can describe it, we can ask for it, but when someone gets mad that it isn't being made, that's when I feel like saying "whoa, stop, go make it yourself if you want it that bad"

it is always moderately annoying as a person who was a vanilla WoW player to read how "easy" WoW was.  You didn't see very many people per server with the same gear. Sure as the next tier came out more people had many of the older tier of gear, but it was not anything like WoW of now. $$$ got to the bigwigs and it destroyed what was awesome in vanilla WoW.  Vanilla WoW required teamwork to accomplish anything of signifigance. Yes in a 40 man raid a few people could slack now and then, but not if you were actually cutting into new content. An entire raid wipe could be attributed to a single person messing up. Sure once it was on farm status 1/3 the raid could yawn through older stuff until the new big bad was up for killing, but the top guilds on each server pushed and battled for that distinction.

That being said..... the EXPANSIONS of WoW dumbed down content into oblivion. They saw the $ and instead of maintaining dificulty decided to cater to the casual. Now every company sees the fluke success WoW had and instead of seeing what STARTED WoW on its path of domincance and capturing the crowd that build WoW into a cultural phinomenon, everyone is just trying to copy what WoW is now and capture the fickle players that drift from instant gratification game to instant gratification game.

considering how many MMO's flopped last year and considering that most are terrible anyway, we are lucky we still have a genre to play

1. fans create the games not corporations ( sorry wrong )

if you counted all the ideas on any game forum that the fans would like to have in game , the vast majority are game killing ideas, the fans ocasionaly have some phenominal ideas listening to those fans is the difference between keeping your job, or gettinng fired when the game flops.

2. failed MMO's don't lie the OP is just in denial about it, the MMO industry is at a crossroads its time to change or die. The latest theme park wow copies + some minor innovation feature the last few of those went F2P to avoid being cancelled.

3.  some indie games are great most are downright awful for every Braid there are 20 indie titles no one has heard of cause they are not any good.

4.  Some of the most genre definning games that every one copies even sandbox titles were created by AAA studios with a massive budget.

5.  People that bitch about corporations still live with their parents , nuff said they don't get it.