Games seem to be best just after a technological leap (when games make use of that new technology that you haven't had time to get used to yet).

I reckon we will experience it again after virtual reality glasses get mass produced.

Originally posted by Cephus404

Originally posted by Psychow

Maybe MMO developers have come to realize that it is impossible to please the "old school vets"...so why try. Instead, their focus is on obtaining NEW players and keeping their current happy players happy. These new and current players aren't looking for a an MMO made in the good old days. They are lokking for and accustomed to the modern MMO. Thus, the development dollars go into these games at the expense of creating a game with old-school features that people on these forum claim they crave.

 

That's because so many "old school vets" don't live in the same reality with the rest of us.  They want this to be 1999.  They have this fanciful image in their heads that "old school games" were magical and made just for them.  They don't understand, or refuse to understand, that old game developers made games the same way then that they do now:  to make money.  However, the world has changed and what makes money today isn't the same as what made money then.

People either need to move on and keep up with reality or just go find something else to do.  MMOs will never, and should never, go back to the "good old days".

Well, yes and no,

I do think there are a lot of older players who forget that games were made to ultimately make money as the developers had dreams of supporting themselves. Nothing wrong with that and nothing wrong with them changing in order to stay in business.

However, I don't think they need to keep up with the times or necessarily move on. They need to be patient. Meaning, if AAA "old school" games aren't pouring out in the droves then they either need to support the indy games that are out (no matter the issues) or settle for the games they used to play along with the changes that time has added.

Or, (as you say) move on.

Most of the content I enjoy was made mid to early last century and before. I don't feel like moving on or really partaking in some things that are being made now (though I do like a few things made now such a Video games, some movies, etc) so I just enjoy what was made, what did come before and fully realize that I can't expect there to be a huge market for the type of music, movies that I really enjoy.

Originally posted by Spector88

When I was in junior high I was playing games like The Realm, Asheron's Call, Dark Age of Camelot, Everquest, Well of Souls, Independent side scrollers, Runescape, etc.

What I remember about thoughts games in a nostalgic way was, them being games MADE for gamers. That were all unique, and innovative.

What I can't wrap my head around is, have I gotten old and spoiled, lost my love of them. Or have they all become games NOT for gamers, for the casual fan, and a bunch of studio juggernauts trying to make box sales, setting records Diablo III style, but presenting some of the most disappointing end game/content and breaking promises like a mother in a trailer park.

 

See, I feel like back in the day, games did have integrity, they were trying to make the best games they possibly could, and I'm not sure what happened.

I've bought them all, Tera, Guild Wars 2, Diablo III.

The only games I've thought were pretty good in the past 2-3 years are League of Legends and Path of Exile. If I had to pick ANY MMORPG I think is decent in the past few years I'd say Rift is a decent game, but even that didn't keep my interest for too long.

I played World of Warcraft like many of you, however WoW was never my beginning, or my end, and I feel like it did hurt the industry,

WoW was the McDonalds to our smaller family restaurants, there were more about quality and choice, more divided in style. Now every gamer is some obese dollar menu hype lover.

I don't see any games coming out in 2013 that even intrigue me. I don't see games pushing boundaries or trying to make games more immersive, or more involved community wise, I see a bunch of console like games, that are more linear that a quarter mile race track, trying to force me to do what they want every second I'm logged in. I understand there is exceptions and games that aren't as linear, but they aren't exactly thriving either.

In my opinion the best MMO to date was Asheron's Call, because it was a seamless world, with tons of lore, unique creatures no one else has used, a monarchy/allegiance/patron system, with XP passup based on followers or (people you actually get rewarded to help) not to mention a questing system you can do, or don't do, that doesn't hold your hand. Elemental Weapons (Carrying a weapon of each element type instead of getting 1 cheesy "THE DECAPITATOR" sword, you would need to hunt for many weapons of each element.

--- I just wish Turbine would kickstart a AC2, or that someone would not sell out and make the garbage they are today.

Did anyone else play Guild Wars 2 and vomit? I mean, What was the point. I logged in and was putting out fires and feeding cattle, and had access to everything in the game except skills at level 1? For what, some zergy super choppy lame PvP siege crap? I have a awesome rig, and it still ran like crap. That's todays latest and greatest?

Ugh.

Am I just getting too old for it, or is there no such thing as a solid MMO anymore. 

 

 

Originally posted by Mors.Magne

Games seem to be best just after a technological leap (when games make use of that new technology that you haven't had time to get used to yet).

 

I reckon we will experience it again after virtual reality glasses get mass produced.

I agree, when virtual reality becomes mainstream, with the headset and later on without headsets, then we will see a vast amount of new features and technologies being used in games. That is the next big leap as far as games are concerned. Right now, as long as its on a PC or console, it is very limited to what those types of hardware can offer. As long as you are using a mouse and keyboard or game controller to input into a game you will see the same types of games, give or take some new features added, but mainly the same types. As long as you are looking at a screen ( as apposed to wearing a VR headset) you will see the same types of games.

Originally posted by Cephus404

Originally posted by Psychow

Maybe MMO developers have come to realize that it is impossible to please the "old school vets"...so why try. Instead, their focus is on obtaining NEW players and keeping their current happy players happy. These new and current players aren't looking for a an MMO made in the good old days. They are lokking for and accustomed to the modern MMO. Thus, the development dollars go into these games at the expense of creating a game with old-school features that people on these forum claim they crave.

 

That's because so many "old school vets" don't live in the same reality with the rest of us.  They want this to be 1999.  They have this fanciful image in their heads that "old school games" were magical and made just for them.  They don't understand, or refuse to understand, that old game developers made games the same way then that they do now:  to make money.  However, the world has changed and what makes money today isn't the same as what made money then.

People either need to move on and keep up with reality or just go find something else to do.  MMOs will never, and should never, go back to the "good old days".

"Never" is a very long time.  Fads come and go in entertainment, many times they're recycled.  MMORPG's haven't been around long enough to see this trend.

Man, I'm behind you 100%....I too played these great games. the one thing i remember most about games like EQ is the dungeons, yes the dugeons were so damn fun back then.....you didnt just go into a dungeon and walk a liniar line to the boss and kill him, and port out...You had to creep through places like ( Lower Guk )..you had to kill your way to a named npc only after you did a zone check to see what bosses were being camped...and when you was done camping that spot you didnt port out unless you was a class that could.. you had to walk back through the nasty mobs you came through to get to that spot.....

Dungeons back then was sooo damn exciting to run...those of you that played EQ remember ..they wasnt linear...they had slippery floors.hidden traps. see invis npcs..water you had to swin under tunnels to get to a secret room with a boss in it...lava that killed you if you fell into it..and much much more.

Those was the days back then,..i still miss EQ back in the old days when you knew the players you hunteed with in those dugeons..you camped a mob with them in hopes to get the rare drop for you or even your friends..its was just great fun back then...to bad they dont make games like that anymore,.. even some of the games today would be so much more fun if they just had a ( Lower Guk ) or ( Sebilis ).

Originally posted by Sovrath

I do think there are a lot of older players who forget that games were made to ultimately make money as the developers had dreams of supporting themselves. Nothing wrong with that and nothing wrong with them changing in order to stay in business.

No, there are some people on these forums who are convinced that the developers of games like UO and EQ were doing a public service and giving those wonderful games to the world because they were some great humanitarians.  Sure, some of the developers may have come back later and tried to pretend it was an effort of love and they wanted to make games that they wanted to play, and that might even have been true.  It might also have been convenient memory.  Heck, it worked for George Lucas.

However, I don't think they need to keep up with the times or necessarily move on. They need to be patient. Meaning, if AAA games aren't pouring out in the droves then they either need to support the indy games that are out (no matter the issues) or settle for the games they used to play along with the changes that time has added.

I don't think anyone ought to be buying bad games, I think that's why the market is so bad these days because so many people, especially people who sit here and whine on and on that all the games suck, are paying for every damn new game that comes out.  If they hate these games so much, STOP PLAYING THEM!  But these people are like junkies going through withdrawals, they *HAVE* to play an MMO, no matter how awful it is, just because they don't know what else to do with themselves.

Or, (as you say) move on.

Most of the content I enjoy was made mid to early last century and before. I don't feel like moving on or really partaking in some things that are being made now (though I do like a few things made now such a Video games, some movies, etc) so I just enjoy what was made, what did come before and fully realize that I can't expect there to be a huge market for the type of music, movies that I really enjoy.

My wife is really into 80s music.  She doesn't sit around and complain that they don't make it anymore, she doesn't get on forums and bitch that they need to make it again.  There is what there is, it's gone and it's never coming back.  She can either sit around and listen to her old cassettes and CDs or she can develop new interests.  Demanding that a new industry that caters to her interests be made is not a valid option.

Personally, I don't care for the way they make MMOs these days, therefore I don't play any of them.  No P2P, no F2P, no B2P, no nothing.  Haven't played one in over a year, don't see a time when I may ever play them again, at least until the community changes dramatically since it's more the community that keeps me away than the games.  That said, I don't get on here and bitch and whine and demand that everyone needs to cater to me and make games I want to play.  I deal with the reality.  If a good came comes along again, I'll play it.  If none do, I won't play any MMOs at all.

Originally posted by dave6660

"Never" is a very long time.  Fads come and go in entertainment, many times they're recycled.  MMORPG's haven't been around long enough to see this trend.

Yet the reason that MMOs were the way they were was because of a perfect storm of events, the same reason WoW became the unbeatable game, not because it was wonderful, but because it came at exactly the rigth time.

The reason most people loved these old games was because of the community, which was very particular, it was made up of geeks and nerds who built high-end computers and paid for, often through university accounts, broadband Internet.  There was a very specific demographic that did that, that's what made a lot of these games worth playing.  That's what a lot of these people want back but it's gone forever, at least unless we ever have a new technology that is so game-changing that only a very small set of early adopters have access to it.

That's why WoW is the big dog on the block.  It came along at exactly the time that everyone got broadband.  Suddenly, most people could play these games where previously, it was only a small minority.  It was in the right place at the right time and there will probably never  be another game like that again because that perfect storm of situations will never happen again.

It wasn't a cycle, it was a fundamental change in the technological landscape.

Originally posted by Cephus404

Originally posted by Sovrath

I do think there are a lot of older players who forget that games were made to ultimately make money as the developers had dreams of supporting themselves. Nothing wrong with that and nothing wrong with them changing in order to stay in business.

No, there are some people on these forums who are convinced that the developers of games like UO and EQ were doing a public service and giving those wonderful games to the world because they were some great humanitarians.  Sure, some of the developers may have come back later and tried to pretend it was an effort of love and they wanted to make games that they wanted to play, and that might even have been true.  It might also have been convenient memory.  Heck, it worked for George Lucas.

Well, I can't speak for the earliest mmo's but it does seem like the two creators of Doom were doing it because they just loved the heck out of what they could make and wanted to share it/possibly make money with their creations.

It's very possible that some of the earliest mmo creators (going back to muds? Meridiian 59? Were in the same boat and just loved doing it. Not to say they didn't want to make money (we all do) but it does seem like there was a group of people who were also just "into it".

Originally posted by Sovrath

Well, I can't speak for the earliest mmo's but it does seem like the two creators of Doom were doing it because they just loved the heck out of what they could make and wanted to share it/possibly make money with their creations.

They sure weren't giving it away for  free, although they did distribute the first 1/3 as shareware to hook players.  Whether or not the creators liked what they were doing is irrelevant, they wanted to make money with their game.

It's very possible that some of the earliest mmo creators (going back to muds? Meridiian 59? Were in the same boat and just loved doing it. Not to say they didn't want to make money (we all do) but it does seem like there was a group of people who were also just "into it".

MUDs, you might have a point on, the overwhelming majority of them were free to play for anyone who came along so clearly, the people who developed the individual MUDs weren't in it for a paycheck, although the engines that many were based on were not free, software developers were still making money from them.  However, where MUDs were often something people did for fun on the side, UO and EQ were things people did for a living, that was their livelihood.  There really is no comparison.

Originally posted by Cephus404

I can't be the only one who realizes that MMOs were *NEVER* virtual worlds, they have always been level-driven treadmills, the whole point of logging on is to get XP and get gear and get weapons to kill things.  That's the point and purpose of an MMO, it always has been and always will be.  There is a point in every game when you've essentially won, you hit end-game, there is no more real progression, it's just a different type of treadmill.  I don't consider any game where you have a goal, in this case progression, to be a virtual world.

To me, a virtual world is like one of the old-time text-based social MU*s.  There was no game-controlled combat.  There were no levels.  There was no gear, no weapons, no killing.  There was no point to being there.  The point was whatever you made of it.  If you wanted to get into a fight with someone, you both just typed out what you did and you came to a mutual decision who won.  It was 100% virtual world, 100% roleplaying because you could do absolutely anything you wanted to do.  People stayed in those games for years and years on end.  My longest was 16 years with *ONE SINGLE CHARACTER*.  You lived a virtual life because that's all there was to do!

Those days are  gone and aren't coming back and certainly, MMOs were never meant to take their place. 

Did you REALLY play Ultima Online?

I did, for about 4 years, and have spent about the same amount of time in WOW.  If you can't recognize the difference between the two games, you're not being honest with yourself.

Ultima wasn't level driven.  It didn't lock you into a specific role type.  Yes, it had a progression system, but gave players the freedom to further themselves through combat, crafting, or exploration....or any mix thereof.  I knew players that played the game for years, and made a fortune doing nothing but role playing a merchant.  Didn't raid any dungeons or engage in PvP wars.....yet had one of the largest houses in the game, stocked to the brim with rares & artifacts.  I also knew a guy that liked to role play a treasure hunter....searching for treasure maps deep in dungeons & fishing them up from sunken ships.

Those non-combat roles might seem boring to you, but it wasn't to them....and they had a place where they fit-in in that community.  Because gear wasn't the end all be all carrot at the end of the stick.....those crafters & treasure hunters served a role in the community by providing goods & services TO the combat types.  You didn't role up to an auction house NPC & purchased a new axe at some fixed price and have it delivered to your mail box...without ever having to see the person that found it.  You sought out other people and had negotiated, talked...and sometimes became friends.  Crafting, cooking, and gathering are now an afterthought in new MMOs....a side attraction while your waiting on another monster to spawn.

I dont' know about your UO experience, but in my years playing the game players gained noteriety.  You knew who the a-holes & the good guys were.  You knew the names of the guys you fought with & against.  After playing WOW for 5+ years....I couldn't tell you a single name of anyone I ran a battleground, dungeon or raid with that wasn't in my guild....and even most of those people have been forgotten.  Considering most of my interaction with people in WOW was through some auto-matched group generator.....my experience was that most people didn't call eachother by their name, but their class.  Hey Mage, gimme water.  Hey Druid, give me Moo.

Also, in my experience playing UO, there was no Beginning, Middle or End game.  You just got better over time at what you wanted your character to do (skill progression system).  When those skills got maxed out, you competed at a high level with other folks in PvP or PvE...most of which did not require instanced battlegrounds or other constructs.  Most of the PvPing I did was hunting the nemisis guild down....stalking their hang out spots & neighborhoods (yes, player housing).

I think what the developers of UO & to some extent EQ stumbled upon was the next step in that transition from MUDs & P&P fantasy worlds....and they honestly had no clue how it would work out.  Atleast Richard Garriott & the guys with UO didn't.  Those kind of games were absolutely not meant for the "everyday gamer".....as most computer games in the 90s were "for more mature gamers" due to the high expense of computers vs. game consoles.

Enter Blizzard into the MMO scene.  Their early development interviews state that their aim was to learn from all the negative feedback many casual gamers gave when they tried & dropped early MMO gaming and wanted to use those as lessons learned to bring all of those people into the fold.  They recognized the new monthly billing method as the industries most lucrative pricing model & sought to match it with the largest sub-section of the gamer market (casuals) and created WOW.

They lowered the barriers of entry by lowering time commitment, reducing risk & penalties, and streamlined the play experience by taking out many of the micro parts around crafting, finding groups, etc.....and BOOM 10+ million strong. 

Originally posted by Cephus404

Originally posted by Sovrath

Well, I can't speak for the earliest mmo's but it does seem like the two creators of Doom were doing it because they just loved the heck out of what they could make and wanted to share it/possibly make money with their creations.

They sure weren't giving it away for  free, although they did distribute the first 1/3 as shareware to hook players.  Whether or not the creators liked what they were doing is irrelevant, they wanted to make money with their game.

It's very possible that some of the earliest mmo creators (going back to muds? Meridiian 59? Were in the same boat and just loved doing it. Not to say they didn't want to make money (we all do) but it does seem like there was a group of people who were also just "into it".

MUDs, you might have a point on, the overwhelming majority of them were free to play for anyone who came along so clearly, the people who developed the individual MUDs weren't in it for a paycheck, although the engines that many were based on were not free, software developers were still making money from them.  However, where MUDs were often something people did for fun on the side, UO and EQ were things people did for a living, that was their livelihood.  There really is no comparison.

but I think the point stands that there have been developers who were a bit less business oriented and more interested in what they can do and what they could give players.

I mean, look, we all want to make money. You, me, and of course the people who think game developers should give their games away for free (which really grinds my gears but i'm an old fart in that regard).

Not only do we all want to make a living but we all want to do better than just scraping by.

However, since there were developers who were into what they did (the doom guys were definitely "into it", at least from what I can remember of the biography) it isn't a far stretch for "some" players to think that this is the way they all should be. It's unrealistic because I wonder how many people on this forum would give away most of their work (some might, depends on what it is) or just want to get by as opposed to "doing better", but I can see where there is precedence for early developers to have this as a hobby, not thinking that it could be a whole career.

Heck, look at the Penny Arcade guys, they didn't even know that they could make money doing what they were doing. It took another to see the potential and now look where that has grown.

I can easily see a group of players who still have that idea of "let's be developers and give to the players" as I know a few people who very much believe in a more socilist way of life and don't like the idea of living beyond the most simple means.