Originally posted by Coldren

 Tell me: What did SWTOR have to compare itself to? The movies? WoW? KOTOR (Which everyone knew this game wouldn't be like from the outset)? Or is there some other decade plus spanning game-based legacy that I am unaware of?

So in other words it's like Skyrim, but it's not.

Let me preface all this with a very clear remark on where I stand on Elder Scrolls.

I'm a modder.

The thing I love more than anything else about the Elder scrolls games is not it's basic gameplay, but it's world and the technology that drives it. The more sophistication that technology has and the more ability we have to weild that system as part of that world, to experience it as a 'world' and not just a game, the better.

I have no specific complaints about the core gameplay of Skyrim, but I know there are other ways one can make the game that still exists well within the realm of the Elder Scrolls series, or for that matter being able to take innovation and expound upon a system that feels to give players more direct control over their own avatar and integrate with the game world.

So when I ask and when I hold aspects of the game suspect, it is because I feel it does not serve to expand the game as a world, as something that you can feel is living apart from your own input, nor let you leave your own impression upon that world.

So for the game to be 'like Skyrim' it can't simply be catering to superficial aspects like 'I click my mouse to swing'.

That is not something unique to Skyrim. That does not set the game apart nor does it advance the quality of it past it's predecessors.

And then there is the aspect of what is called 'like Skyrim' that very simply isn't like that game at all.

Equipment for example.

The distinction equipment has in SKyrim is that it has non-armor clothing, light armor, and heavy armor. There are preset forms of equipment that give bonuses, like all the mage robes. These are all enchantments though.

At it's core, equipment is generic. In a sense that's as it should be. Something that has a few baseline distinctions, but beyond that is a mouldable part of your repertoire.

You don't wear the mage robes forever, you disenchant them so you can apply that bonus to something else, quite often proper armor in the long run until you get artifacts that your prefer.

It's malleable is the point. The gear does not define you, you define the gear. This in turn feeds back to your ability to tailor your character to a fine point.

That's not what I just got told is in TESO. So I can conclude that it is not like Skyrim in that regard. At it's most basic level, yes it bears similarity, but there is nothing past that depth.

It seems many things take this route as well. You can explore the world and experiance it as you would Skyrim. but that's because they isolate it from the rest of the game world. They phase every aspect and make it so you feel individual and precious at every moment.

This I can say neither feel like Skyrim nor does it feel like Elder Scrolls. At the very least not what I have ever sought to get out of the games. Do we play characters of central import in the games? Technically, yes. But are we the only ones? Far from.

Think about the two titles before Skyrim. In Oblivion and Morrowind both you achieve your fame not by right, but by novelty. In Morrowind more so than Oblivion you start out as a hapless git simply swept into the machinations of that era. In Oblivion you have a bit of divine intervention that lets you become the hero by assisting another in achieving their birthright to save the people.

Taking a step back though and looking at the narrative, you should note that this was done by achieving certain goals and then being recognized for them. It's not always strict predestination (technically it is because it's the core plot and conclusion of the game, but its wirtten as if you have a hand in your own rise to glory).

That is something I think they could and should have done. If a person wants to be the hero of the era, then they step up and become it. What we get instead is effectively an entire subsection of the world suddenly getting their souls taken and now they all on the same quest to become the same thing.

That right there betrays what I consider not only a core aspect of Skyrim, but of the entirety of Elder Scrolls. It's no longer a world. It's a road. It might have plenty of forks and nice rest stops to admire the scenery, but I can not simply veer left into nothing and stumble my way into an emergent masterpiece. Only setpieces. Props that I'm all too aware are artificial and I can trust to be the same when I return.

This isn't to call TESO a bad game. Indeed there may be plenty of general ways in which it is similar to Skyrim as a game.

But I do not care for Skyrim alone as a game. I still play that title and past elder scrolls games because of the worlds that have and can develop. I care for Elder Scrolls as a series, as a technology, and as an ideal of innovation. Even if there are things people find underwhelming about the titles, be it the combat or the bugs steer them off, I remain fascinated by the potential of what makes the games tick and how we can build upon that each generation.

When that is taken away, it is no longer Elder Scrolls in anything but name, and there are other skill based action RPGs out there.

I want it's world. That, TESO does not have.

EDIT: I know I didn't expound upon skills or combat much, but it follows a silimar vein that you noted yourself more or less. Core aspects that pull from the previous title, but then mixed among other aspects that are not the same at a fundamental level beyond the general semblance.

Originally posted by Deivos

 

 

Let me preface all this with a very clear remark on where I stand on Elder Scrolls.

I'm a modder.

Out of curiosity, what mods? Are these mods you have released?

Yeah I remember gear crafting in DAoC. I was relatively happy with the concept behind how that worked for the game, thoug the process they used was rather tedious.

It's never particularly been a foreign concept in games. Functionally, you are breaking equipment down into it's basic gear. Physically what the thing 'is'. Every other bonus is it's own thing. Something you add to that gear to tailor how it serves you in the end.

I've generally always preferred that concept and that is probably why I am partial to the way Elder Scrolls has always provided it's gear. Even when you couldn't craft the basic gear yourself, you were still given the means to do all the tailoring and fine tuning.

Other titles have swung close recently. Suprisingly some of the more remarkable instances coming from the shooter genre with the likes of Borderlands, Loadout, and Blacklight all having weapons that have a core component defining the gun's function, then all the changeable parts that alter it's performance and potential effects.

It's certainly soething that caters well to nonlinear progression as well. Allowing for improvement by finding specialized components or materials to refine your equipment with that way it's more about building a set of equipment that's truly personal to you rather than being a cloned batch of 'epic gear'.

EDIT: To Sovrath

Entirely eclectic. I have a habit of collecting mods and then making my own things built over them more often than anything else. For the most part I like uaing or adding in things that adds activity to the game. Economy mods, shop mods, etc. 

Part of why I love Real Time Settler so much.

As for things I personally release. That's pretty much nonexistant. I'm not a very outgoing person and I don't tend to reach out to other modders about stuff, so I keep my stuff to myself unless someone asks me about them.

I'm an artist more than a programmer though, so while I know and fuss with code, my own stuff is less likely to be big on that as much as it is integrating a bunch of other mods together or personalizing stuff.

Originally posted by hardicon

nah op i think people are tired of wow clones which it appears elder scrolls is going to be another one. 

 

take a really awesome sandbox single player game, make it a themepark wow style mmo.  I think that pretty much says fail right there. 

but im pretty sure it will sell alot of copies, then one month later people will be max level and bored with the game and waiting for that mythical endgame they promised, just like swtor, tsw, and every other themepark mmo wow wanna be.  the devs had a chance to make a true elder scrolls game and they made wow in tamriel.

im not gonna get it solely for that reason, im boycotting new mmos till devs and bankers and investors and anyone else get off their ass and quit trying to copy a 8 year old game.  maybe when that happens mmos will get better but as long as we have retarded devs copying wow this industry is going to be stale and stagnant.  you havent had a single game in the last 8 years that was truly different,  it has all been wow with different skins.

Well you are wrong, people are tired of bad wow clones. Never enough of wow for people it is like a drug.

Originally posted by Deivos

I have no specific complaints about the core gameplay of Skyrim, but I know there are other ways one can make the game that still exists well within the realm of the Elder Scrolls series, or for that matter being able to take innovation and expound upon a system that feels to give players more direct control over their own avatar and integrate with the game world.

I feel this way about ESO.  There are more than one way to make a game and people are fooling themselves if they think ESO has to be designed the way it is.  They shouldn't have looked at it as an MMO but as a multiplayer Elder Scrolls game in an online persistant world.

Within the rest of your post you captured the 'magic' of Elder Scrolls, I don't think ESO could ever understand this.

Originally posted by sapphen

Originally posted by Caldrin

i think people are getting bored with the same old same old getting released over and over.. even if we get told they are new and innovative like GW2 LOL..

GW2 turned out to be basically the same as any other themepark MMO released over the last few years and lots of people are bored of that... really no idea how it got voted innovative game of the year or whatever haha..

They can see it happening again with this.. who knows tho..

I agree with you and I actually like GW2.  They have been one of the most innovated AAA title released so far but even that wasn't enough (although the game is doing better than most other mmos atm).

I wish some of these IPs (SWTOR, ESO) would stop trying to make an MMO and just make an online game in a persistant world you can enjoy with your friends.  MMOs has such stale standards, we all enjoyed and loved what it was but we've evolved even if the industry refuses to do so.

All AAA theme park MMOs after WoW didn't turn out like a lot of us wanted them to. I don't think anyone is "afraid" of TESO. But I think a lot of people are sceptical. Truth is, we don't know all that much about the game yet, but in a lot of ways it doesn't look that much different than past failures.

I'd love for it to turn out to be the greatest MMO ever, but I'll believe it if I see it. (Maybe)

Originally posted by Coldren

Originally posted by TsaboHavoc

we never played, true fact, but we alerady have a big chunk of info, enough to see where this is going....

 

While I'm sure the inference engine of this site is PHENOMENAL, I tend to give more creedence to people who have actually played the game. Beyond that, I'll decide on my own when it's released.

A link, for your listening pleasure.

http://elderscrollsotr.mymiddleearth.com/2012/10/26/eso-teso-skyrim-elder-scrolls-bethesda-zenimax-elder-scrolls-online-dragonborn-episode-43-hands-on-with-eso/

 

 

Well we have first  impression from this guys. AND I WAS RIGHT about TESO, it  plays same as original saga. Thank you for that dude :)

Originally posted by zomard100

Well you are wrong, people are tired of bad wow clones. Never enough of wow for people it is like a drug.

All attempts to copy wow will result in bad wow clones.  It's impossible to catch up with all the content they've added over the years.  You are right though, wow is like a drug and people are addicted... what makes you think WoW players are even looking for a new game?

People like WoW not because it's an MMO but because it was innovative (well copied the innovative parts from other games and make it popular).  Before then MMOs was a niche market, WoW just became the mascot for the genre.

It's naive to believe that after so many attempts to copy wow's success that this time would be different.  It's time for another game to take MMOs to the next level and they are not going to do that by doing the same thing over and over.

Thats not fear you smell

Its the stink of yet another linear, shallow and banal Themepark MMO about to be released

Just going to comment on a few things that hopefully address your overall post.. No idea why I can't hit enter and have your quoted text below basic text without me putting my own text in a qutoe box, but here goes....

Originally posted by Deivos

I'm a modder.

- I am a wannabe modder. I simply don't have the technical prowess to do it, so I limit myself to a few custom skins for Plate armor that I never really released, just so I could learn about how the system works. And also, what mods have you made?

The thing I love more than anything else about the Elder scrolls games is not it's basic gameplay, but it's world and the technology that drives it. The more sophistication that technology has and the more ability we have to weild that system as part of that world, to experience it as a 'world' and not just a game, the better.

 

I have no specific complaints about the core gameplay of Skyrim, but I know there are other ways one can make the game that still exists well within the realm of the Elder Scrolls series, or for that matter being able to take innovation and expound upon a system that feels to give players more direct control over their own avatar and integrate with the game world.

 

So when I ask and when I hold aspects of the game suspect, it is because I feel it does not serve to expand the game as a world, as something that you can feel is living apart from your own input, nor let you leave your own impression upon that world.

 - This I believe is a problem of the MMO genre as a whole. No, you will obviously not be able to affect the world for EVERYONE, because your choices may not be the same as what others would have made. You would be defining the experiece for others who equally want to be able to define their own experience.

I understand and agree, it would be nice if the changes I made to the world were seen by all. And who knows, maybe in some small ways a few people will be able to. But I don't see how that's possible on a massive scale - It'd be esentially like having a major rush for "Server Firsts", but with far greater impact.

For example, let's say I'm the first guy to kill all the vampires in this city, and the game were to change and the city was now free of them forever, and new stuff opens up. Well, what happens to those who come after me? They can't do what I did - They are stuck with the experience I have defined for them. Maybe they would have killed all the people instead of the vampires, making it a vampire city for a boss that would later spawn. But who's to say which one is better for everyone if that decision is permenant?

If the game is designed so that choices can be undone and altered, this is possible. However, if you do this than that ability ultimately becomes meaningless because the malleability it necessitates makes it inconsequential on the scale of hundreds or thousands of people.

I think (And not a slight at you, by the way) you are one of the people who would have been happier if it were more an Elder Scrolls multiplayer, where others could play on your "shard", shared by your guild or just your friends, like a private Neverwinter Nights instance, do their thing and yours, and shape your vision of the world.

But for better or worse, this is not going to be that way. I personally like what I am hearing for what it is going to be, not what I want it to be.

 

And then there is the aspect of what is called 'like Skyrim' that very simply isn't like that game at all.

Equipment for example.

The distinction equipment has in SKyrim is that it has non-armor clothing, light armor, and heavy armor. There are preset forms of equipment that give bonuses, like all the mage robes. These are all enchantments though.

At it's core, equipment is generic. In a sense that's as it should be. Something that has a few baseline distinctions, but beyond that is a mouldable part of your repertoire.

You don't wear the mage robes forever, you disenchant them so you can apply that bonus to something else, quite often proper armor in the long run until you get artifacts that your prefer.

It's malleable is the point. The gear does not define you, you define the gear. This in turn feeds back to your ability to tailor your character to a fine point.

That's not what I just got told is in TESO. So I can conclude that it is not like Skyrim in that regard. At it's most basic level, yes it bears similarity, but there is nothing past that depth.

 - Equipment affects stats and active abilities available, and is unrestrictted. So in a sense, you do define the gear you wish to use.

Example: In Skyrim, if I want to be a heavy armor wearing caster, I wear the armor, it's skill improves, and I cast spells, and those schools get better. Most heavy armor doesn't have benefits to magicka or destruction damage by default, though It can be added later through enchanting (And since they haven't discussed crafting yet, this might be possible, or not).

Aside from enchanting, I get the impression from the podcast that this is exactly the case with ESO, with the caveat that the active abilities differ from class to class based on equipment. So one classes one handed attacks might be different than anothers, but it doesn't stop either class from doing it (and being effective with it), and you pick the armor and stats (Magicka/Health/Stamina - Remember, they do more in ESO than Skyrim) to best support how you want to play. So my Dragon Knight could play completely different than yours, even if we have the exact same gear. In that sense, the equipment isn't really defining me so much as the sum of all the decisions I make, from gear to stats to playstle, are.

Again, this is the impression I get from the podcast. I may certainly be wrong.

It seems many things take this route as well. You can explore the world and experiance it as you would Skyrim. but that's because they isolate it from the rest of the game world. They phase every aspect and make it so you feel individual and precious at every moment.

 - As stated above, that is the nature of massive games. I can't make decisions that affect you permenantly and forever, and everyone should have the chance to feel that percious moment if they want to in their own way. Phasing makes this possible. Yes, it's limited, but for a massive game, required if you want to experience it in any way, shape, or form. This is possible in a single player game, but never, ever for a massive multiplayer one.

 

I want it's world. That, TESO does not have.

 - I think it very well may have it's world, it's lore, it's style - It just can't be shaped in the way you want it to, affecting everyone, for all time. That is what single player games do best. If for these reasons, it's not the game for you, than so be it. Maybe you can find something in it you enjoy as an MMO, maybe not. Try it when it is released, or not. But hopefully, you understand that I am not judging it for what I want it to be - I am excited about it for what it is, or at the very least, the impression of what it is through these Skyrim fans.

This has been a good conversation, and you raise some excellent points. Thank you for this civil and thoughtful exchange.

Originally posted by Caldrin

i think people are getting bored with the same old same old getting released over and over.. even if we get told they are new and innovative like GW2 LOL..

 

GW2 turned out to be basically the same as any other themepark MMO released over the last few years and lots of people are bored of that... really no idea how it got voted innovative game of the year or whatever haha..

 

 

They can see it happening again with this.. who knows tho..

 

I'm sure some people are discontent with the themepark / casual model as they certainly lurk these boards incessantly, but the numbers prove that they are in the minority.  We'll see how this changes when the sandbox game that is EQNext comes out and compare it to the rest of the themeparks out there.  It will be nice to have a sandbox out there that isn't Eve, but I seriously doubt any sandbox will ever garner the widespread appeal that well made themeparks do.

Originally posted by zomard100
COLDREN is the winer! He gave first real  impression about TESO on this site.  Dude if i can pay you a few drinks i would but we are to far away :)

No one wins, but it's been a good conversation. I appreciate the sentiment though, and glad you agree. :)

Originally posted by PyrateLV

Thats not fear you smell

Its the stink of yet another linear, shallow and banal Themepark MMO about to be released

This^^^  Very well said..