Something very similar to that happened to me in a guild that I created in Lineage II. People were leaving every day to join the new guild that a former member created, even a couple of guys that I had met in RL. I could not bear it so rather than watch them all leave I kicked out those who hadn't left yet so they wouldn't even have the chance to. I ended up alone in memberless guild with a castle that they of course took in the next scheduled siege.

I've never made a guild again or been truly involved with a guild since then, I haven't been able to muster the energy nor the enthusiasm anymore.

A wiser man than me said this:
"Everyone tries to define this thing called Character. It's not hard. Character is doing what's right when nobody's looking."
- J. C. Watts

That is the internet and even gaming in general for ya.

Great article Pocket, and one that many of us can identify with. 

It is unfortunate that a person feels the need to lie to another.  Even worse when the person who is lying has malicious intent.  The truth, no matter how hard it may be, is way easier in the long run.  

@Exilor: The are some really great gaming Organizations still out there that have been around for a very long time.  Don't let a horrible experience keep you from making the next great one should the time ever come.

@Malvious: I disagree.  Humans are the most compasionate creatures on the planet.  It's just that we always hear about the bad things that happen rather than the good.  Today's media tends to go for more "shock and awe" rather than carebear stories.  Bad news sells :(

Originally posted by steelheartx

Great article Pocket, and one that many of us can identify with. 

It is unfortunate that a person feels the need to lie to another.  Even worse when the person who is lying has malicious intent.  The truth, no matter how hard it may be, is way easier in the long run.  

@Exilor: The are some really great gaming Organizations still out there that have been around for a very long time.  Don't let a horrible experience keep you from making the next great one should the time ever come.

@Malvious: I disagree.  Humans are the most compasionate creatures on the planet.  It's just that we always hear about the bad things that happen rather than the good.  Today's media tends to go for more "shock and awe" rather than carebear stories.  Bad news sells :(

 

 

Your last paragraph: I would say that those in positions of power and those who strive to be there usually display the least desirable human traits, which is why we tend to hear bad news. 

"Anyway, the game this happened in doesn't really matter (Wartune)"

Really Pokket, Wartune? Why are you wasting your time on that trashy browser grindfest??!!

Why not play a REAL MMO, and hope over to Yaks Bend, with GW2? I'll guild with you, and even let you call the guild "Hot Pokkets".

@ Pokket - Rejection hurts and that's what happened here.  Those people rejected your friendship in favor of something else (in this case pixels generated by some server somewhere).  It's petty to be sure.  I understand it's upsetting.  So much for the fuzzy part of my post.

First, I'm not sure that using your position here at MMORPG.com as a platform to complain about these particular people is appropriate.  This can be viewed in a lot of lights and one of the obvious ones is here is someone elevating the drama in an attempt to gain sympathy and attention.  That doesn't seem likely in your case since you seem to have all the attention you could possibly want, but I'll cite that as just one example of how this can reflect.

Second, if anyone out there doesn't like drama, the best way to avoid it is to simply not engage in it.  The response is, "Hey, if you've got to go, then go.  Since we've got some fundamental differences then it's probably best we parted ways."  Every single person in the world can tell this same story.  I'm not sure I can credit you with "speaking out" against some evil in the world when everyone has experienced it and dealt with it.  Drama happens when you make more of something than it is, so be careful before you claim to be fighting the battle for the whole world.  For some reason they felt the need to tell you a fib (that's what this qualifies as.  They didn't steal RL money from you or ruin your relationship with your significant other) so maybe there might have been a vibe or something you were putting out that made them take this course as opposed to the direct, "we're leaving" method.

Third, be very cautious with the word "friend".  Just because someone is on your friends list or in your guild in an MMO doesn't make them a friend.  Just because you've heard their voice on Vent or met them IRL doesn't make them a friend.  Shared experiences, shared values and mutual respect and affection make friends.  I have a few friends that I met online, but they didn't become friends in the truest sense of the word until I shared real life experiences from birth to death and everything in between with them.  Now that they are my friends, something as small as them wanting to change guilds because they want something different from a game than I do would not undermine our friendship.  And because of our friendship they know this.  Gaming is a portal to meeting people just like reading groups or anything else.  Once the portal has done it's job of bringing people together then it's up to each of us to do the hard work of vetting and the vetting process is by nature long and discerning.  (This could lead to a discussion of why I think communities in MMO have broken down so thoroughly, but I'm not going to drift off topic).  Besides I don't think you want to impute the bad behavior of a few people to the entire human race, do you?  That makes the world a truly dark place with little to no hope.

Warren Buffet has a famous quote about friendship.  It goes, "I know a woman in her 80's, a Polish Jewish woman forced into a concentration camp with her family, but not all of them came out.  She says, 'I am slow to make friends because when I look at people, I have one question in mind; would they hide me?'"  I'm not saying your standards have to be quite that high, but they should be higher than, "I've known them in game for a few years and we talk every night on Vent."

I can't say I have a perfect track record in life, but I have developed a paradigm that works pretty well.  I figure everyone out there is like a chunk of rock.  You've got to chip away some of the outer layers to find out what's inside.  Sometimes you find nothing but rock.  Sometimes you find lead.  Sometimes you find silver and, very rarely, sometimes you find gold.  The trick is to keep each in the proper place in your life.  I know a lot of people and I'm friendly with many of them, but I am friends with very few of them.  Sure a friend is someone who will stick in the clutch and back you up, but they also are the people who will tell you things about yourself that you don't necessarily want to hear.  To use a poker term, a friend is someone you'd go "all in" for and they would go "all in" for you.  Simply put be careful who you bet your arse on.

So, figure this is like sticking your finger in the light socket when you were a kid.  It hurt, but it didn't kill you and it taught you not to stick your finger in the light socket anymore.  Take it, move on and remember it in the future.  Maybe you're not cut out to be a Guild Leader, or maybe you just don't want the aggravation.  In the meantime remember; Love many, trust few, do harm to none.

Since i started 2001 onlinegaming every single Guild/Clan/Group i joined got destroyed by jealousy, grief, drama, powermongering - there is not a single exception.
Trust simply means you let your apples rott uncontrolled until the smell is to much to ignore (which is to late to repair anything).
As games can not be the determing factor of your life simply enjoy the ride as long its fun and after that dont waste time beating dead horses.

Originally posted by Tanemund

@ Pokket - Rejection hurts and that's what happened here.  Those people rejected your friendship in favor of something else (in this case pixels generated by some server somewhere).  It's petty to be sure.  I understand it's upsetting.  So much for the fuzzy part of my post.

 

First, I'm not sure that using your position here at MMORPG.com as a platform to complain about these particular people is appropriate.  This can be viewed in a lot of lights and one of the obvious ones is here is someone elevating the drama in an attempt to gain sympathy and attention.  That doesn't seem likely in your case since you seem to have all the attention you could possibly want, but I'll cite that as just one example of how this can reflect.

 

Second, if anyone out there doesn't like drama, the best way to avoid it is to simply not engage in it.  The response is, "Hey, if you've got to go, then go.  Since we've got some fundamental differences then it's probably best we parted ways."  Every single person in the world can tell this same story.  I'm not sure I can credit you with "speaking out" against some evil in the world when everyone has experienced it and dealt with it.  Drama happens when you make more of something than it is, so be careful before you claim to be fighting the battle for the whole world.  For some reason they felt the need to tell you a fib (that's what this qualifies as.  They didn't steal RL money from you or ruin your relationship with your significant other) so maybe there might have been a vibe or something you were putting out that made them take this course as opposed to the direct, "we're leaving" method.

 

Third, be very cautious with the word "friend".  Just because someone is on your friends list or in your guild in an MMO doesn't make them a friend.  Just because you've heard their voice on Vent or met them IRL doesn't make them a friend.  Shared experiences, shared values and mutual respect and affection make friends.  I have a few friends that I met online, but they didn't become friends in the truest sense of the word until I shared real life experiences from birth to death and everything in between with them.  Now that they are my friends, something as small as them wanting to change guilds because they want something different from a game than I do would not undermine our friendship.  And because of our friendship they know this.  Gaming is a portal to meeting people just like reading groups or anything else.  Once the portal has done it's job of bringing people together then it's up to each of us to do the hard work of vetting and the vetting process is by nature long and discerning.  (This could lead to a discussion of why I think communities in MMO have broken down so thoroughly, but I'm not going to drift off topic).  Besides I don't think you want to impute the bad behavior of a few people to the entire human race, do you?  That makes the world a truly dark place with little to no hope.

 

Warren Buffet has a famous quote about friendship.  It goes, "I know a woman in her 80's, a Polish Jewish woman forced into a concentration camp with her family, but not all of them came out.  She says, 'I am slow to make friends because when I look at people, I have one question in mind; would they hide me?'"  I'm not saying your standards have to be quite that high, but they should be higher than, "I've known them in game for a few years and we talk every night on Vent."

 

I can't say I have a perfect track record in life, but I have developed a paradigm that works pretty well.  I figure everyone out there is like a chunk of rock.  You've got to chip away some of the outer layers to find out what's inside.  Sometimes you find nothing but rock.  Sometimes you find lead.  Sometimes you find silver and, very rarely, sometimes you find gold.  The trick is to keep each in the proper place in your life.  I know a lot of people and I'm friendly with many of them, but I am friends with very few of them.  Sure a friend is someone who will stick in the clutch and back you up, but they also are the people who will tell you things about yourself that you don't necessarily want to hear.  To use a poker term, a friend is someone you'd go "all in" for and they would go "all in" for you.  Simply put be careful who you bet your arse on.

 

So, figure this is like sticking your finger in the light socket when you were a kid.  It hurt, but it didn't kill you and it taught you not to stick your finger in the light socket anymore.  Take it, move on and remember it in the future.  Maybe you're not cut out to be a Guild Leader, or maybe you just don't want the aggravation.  In the meantime remember; Love many, trust few, do harm to none.

Got to agree with the three points you made but was too polite to say it in my first post. 

As a man I don't think I have ever experienced treacherous behaviour like that described by Pokket in real life.

Perhaps it's more of a girl-on-girl thing?! 

I have experienced a huge amount of treacherous behaviour in Eve Online, but it's expected. Trying to identify spies is part of the fun.

In Eve Online I was once conned out of 1 BILLION ISK through somebody lying to me.

@Pokket - generally speaking, I don't believe in telling white lies either, but I think there might be very rare exeptions where a white lie is far kinder than telling the truth. The higher moral prinicple could well be "do no harm" particulaly if telling the truth leaves the person devistated for the rest of their lives yet still unable to do anything about the situation. I can't think of a good example that the average person would chance upon though.

I do understand your point of view and even share in your pain during the guild story (I too had that happen in a few of my guilds), but I have read many studies on this matter from professionals in the field of people behaivor and I can see where the internet and the veil of shadow (people not really knowing you) can cause people to act differently than they would if they were face to face with the person in real life. For me that is one of the reasons I love role playing games, but I still act with morality and honor even in my character's shoes.

The internet can NOT be the blame all for people's choices, just as much as I believe that violent video games/movies make people go out and commit massive murders. If anything lets blame parents and role models for their lack of setting good examples for kids. (A little sarcasm there also). 

There will always be those people (real life and internet) that just want to be shady, scum, low-lifes and not much changes them. What needs to happen more is the ones that have some honor and moral standards to live a little louder (in and especially out of the internet world). Live and act as you would want others to treat you EVEN if they don't respond in kind because you know it is the right thing to do.

When I use to play WoW I would (during the holidays) go around to each city and randomly give out prizes or gold to people. Looking back on those days even now I can say were some of my best days in the game. The reactions people would respond with were funny. Some even asked if I was crazy because sometimes I gave away 100k to people, but it made their days and it was unexpected!

I guess what I am saying is their will ALWAYS be both in our worlds, just make a stand as to which one you want to be and live it loud!

Games provide us with fantastic settings that allow us to do things that we cannot or would not do in real life.(Grand Theft Auto for example).  This must be the starting point for everything because everything we are talking about happens in this environment.

Also, let's face it, you can in an online game at anytime you can wipe the slate clean.  Add to that anonymity.  

Some people approach online relationships like real world friendships, some approach them like business relationships(win-win), and some are role playing fantasy relationships.(and not only fantasy as in dragons, but fantasy as in not who they are in real life)  For many people these relationships are temporary bonds of convenience, and for others strong bonds of friendship.

There are many things that a person may do in a fantasy setting with no repurcussions that they wouldn't do in real life, and to see those actions in any way as a reflection of their true nature is a bit of a stretch IMHO.

Chances are most of the people in your guild aren't real life friends, so their is probably no deep real life bond.  Online relationships are by their very nature more disposable/temporary.  I think a lot of the problems arise when you have a guild that contains people that see the guild as a work relationship(win-win professional) and people that see it as a private/personal relationship.  For example a GM makes a decision that rewards another player that results in better guild progression(win-win), but at the expense of a buddy.(or the opposite) The buddy gets pissed and vindictive.  

Being a GM is much like managing a company.  Believe it or not successfull companies or not only about making money.  You create a work environment that strengthens morale, motivates employees, and rewards productivity.  It is in that environment that your empoyees drive you to succeed.  If an employee gets vindictive because of a bad business decision and leaves your company bringing a bunch of employees with him, chances are the company failed at creating that environment.(and it is very hard to create that environment if you are mixing personal relationships with professional)  As a GM you have to do exactly the same thing, and when you mismanage a guild you can see similar results. 

From reading the story it sounds like this is the case.  If the guild is a 100% professional win-win relationship, then their shouldn't be much to be said about personal feelings, the relationship is maintained as long as both parties provide each other with benefit.  If it is a guild based solely on personal relationships and no expectations, why did they leave?  It sounds like the guild is a mixture of people looking for different things and that is always going to be tricky when private relationships get in the way of professional or vice versa.

If everybody is happy in a win-win relationship, people don't usually leave.  Problems occur when not everybody is happy.  Why weren't they happy?  This is the root of the issue.  If you haven't talked to them and sorted this out then that is another problem.

Also, of course they went behind your back.  They weren't happy with the relationship they had with the guild, but wanted to maintain the relationships they had with other players.  Other than the occasional rage quit, this seems a fairly common occurance, and it seems fairly reasonable that people would want to leave with other like minded people.  However, figuring out who those like minded people are can be problematic if you get gkicked when you try to discuss the issue with the GM like an adult... but the problem itself is the GM isn't prone to discussing things like an adult.(which also seems fairly common).

Really though if you don't want things like this to happen, figure out why people aren't happy with your guild and fix it.

No offense but a lot of these problems seem to be "woman's human nature" problems and not human nature problems period.

When men work together they work together.  Thousands of years of genetics have made men into tight cohesive units who are able to compete and beat each other in a respectful manner.  They are able to work in a workplace with minimal cattiness.

A lot of the cattiness you describe is something most people find with women working together. My girlfriend spent 4 years at a vet school that was 98% female and 2% male.

When at one of their balls I spoke with the dean and he told me that back when the school was mostly male the problems he had to deal with involved drinking, vandalism, and general tomfoolery.  Once the school started making a shift over to being heavily female he noted that the problems often involved gossip, Facebook pictures/statuses, and theft.

The difference?

The male associated problems were problems that men did together.

The female associated problems were individual things women do to each other.

I've never in my life ever had a coworker try and "steal" my girlfriend.  In fact if you talk to men that's generally considered taboo and often frowned upon even among friends.

You can't just up and blame guild troubles on "human nature."  I MISMANAGED THE GUILD AND NOW PEOPLE ARE LEAVING TO MAKE THEIR OWN, HUMAN NATURE!!

No it just doesn't work that way.  If a person doesn't see a need to devulge complaints to you about the guild it probably means you're actually not that open to receive complaints.

Alternatively maybe these people just have different priorities.

Back when I was playing WoW I was in one of these top 100 guilds in the world getting a lot of top 10 boss kills.  The guild at the end of Burning Crusade split up into three different guilds.

The main guild still raided, but fell in rankings.

The second guild raided as well and rose in rankings.

The third guild focused entirely on PvP and arenas and thrived with it.

All three of these guilds could have easily been one guild and done well, but mismanagement from the original guild made this three way split.

The original guild master for example was only taking applications for raiding.  This meant that upon trying to get a 5v5 together they would have to organize entirely by tells... that's inconvenient.  It'd just be far more convenient for this person to be in the guild... but they weren't.

The second guild split off to raid because the guildmaster had quite a temper in raids and was strongheaded about everything.

I manage a team of roughly 50 people doing snow removal across a large section of my city. When one of them is thinking about getting a new job I'm aware well in advance.  On top of that if the person is a hard worker they get a reference and we leave on good terms.

I think MMO video game culture has done one thing, done a good job of confusing what "leadership" means.

Solution to all problems(if only):

Everyone just speaks thier mind... and always speaks thier mind, even if ugly and hurtful at the time, get the pus out of the wound early and let the healing begin.

Stupid behind-the-back drama BS happens just as pokket said, both irl and ingame. I avoid much of it just by always being open with how I feel about any given situation, as harmful to me at the time it may be, its always better than scheaming like some bored housewife.

Just look at the world "Assertiveness".  I think there's a hidden message. *grin*

Originally posted by troublmaker

No offense but a lot of these problems seem to be "woman's human nature" problems and not human nature problems period.

When men work together they work together.  Thousands of years of genetics have made men into tight cohesive units who are able to compete and beat each other in a respectful manner.  They are able to work in a workplace with minimal cattiness.

A lot of the cattiness you describe is something most people find with women working together. My girlfriend spent 4 years at a vet school that was 98% female and 2% male.

When at one of their balls I spoke with the dean and he told me that back when the school was mostly male the problems he had to deal with involved drinking, vandalism, and general tomfoolery.  Once the school started making a shift over to being heavily female he noted that the problems often involved gossip, Facebook pictures/statuses, and theft.

The difference?

The male associated problems were problems that men did together.

The female associated problems were individual things women do to each other.

I've never in my life ever had a coworker try and "steal" my girlfriend.  In fact if you talk to men that's generally considered taboo and often frowned upon even among friends.

You can't just up and blame guild troubles on "human nature."  I MISMANAGED THE GUILD AND NOW PEOPLE ARE LEAVING TO MAKE THEIR OWN, HUMAN NATURE!!

No it just doesn't work that way.  If a person doesn't see a need to devulge complaints to you about the guild it probably means you're actually not that open to receive complaints.

Alternatively maybe these people just have different priorities.

Back when I was playing WoW I was in one of these top 100 guilds in the world getting a lot of top 10 boss kills.  The guild at the end of Burning Crusade split up into three different guilds.

The main guild still raided, but fell in rankings.

The second guild raided as well and rose in rankings.

The third guild focused entirely on PvP and arenas and thrived with it.

All three of these guilds could have easily been one guild and done well, but mismanagement from the original guild made this three way split.

The original guild master for example was only taking applications for raiding.  This meant that upon trying to get a 5v5 together they would have to organize entirely by tells... that's inconvenient.  It'd just be far more convenient for this person to be in the guild... but they weren't.

The second guild split off to raid because the guildmaster had quite a temper in raids and was strongheaded about everything.

I manage a team of roughly 50 people doing snow removal across a large section of my city. When one of them is thinking about getting a new job I'm aware well in advance.  On top of that if the person is a hard worker they get a reference and we leave on good terms.

I think MMO video game culture has done one thing, done a good job of confusing what "leadership" means.

I completely agree with you about men being relatively less treacherous than women in the workplace.

For your interest, the Japanese are even more loyal to their company team than us.

However, I don't think you can apply the same rules to MMO guilds - there is difference between being paid to be on a team and being on a team because you volunteer because it's suppost to be fun.

The motivations and subsequent behaviours will be different.

I agree with the OP on this one.  And for the record, I am the same person here or in game as I am in real life.  To me at least I never understood how the internet was supposed to be this enabler of bad behavior.  Yes, I understand to a certain extent we are anonymous behind our forum names...but how anonymous are we really? 

If I was required to post with my real name and a pic, I'd be fine with it. 

Of course, when I used to RP in SWG, I couldn't exactly be all of me.  In that instance, I imbued each of my characters with aspects of my personality, exagerating this or that trait, but the core of my beliefs, honesty, integrity, kindness, a sense of humor, those never change. 

Like the OP, I've seen some guild drama.  That's why I am not really that gung ho to join a guild.  I have seen some crazy things go down.  I don't necessarily think there are evil, mean or unethical people in game so much as just in life, because I see a wide swath of humanity in my line of work.  There are good people in the world but there's also quite a few that are 'questionable', and given only that slight illusion of anonymity they will be themselves and bring drama and behave poorly.

Anyway nice topic.

“I always find it funny when people say that others behave differently on the internet because I never fully agree with that sentiment. I think that people on the internet just have less of a need for self-control and the internet brings the worst out in quite a few people. I don't really consider that acting different. I think these people are being who they really are, or at least who they want to be. Showing their true colors. The internet is their escape from the societal pressure to be sane, civil, normal, whatever word you want to put on it.”

Pokket 1/7/13

“So... I guess EVE Online really is the perfect game for psychopaths and serial killers.”

Crazy Stick 1/10/13