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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » FLOATING WEAPONS: Why are we still dealing with the primitive way weapons are holstered?

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74 posts found
  Dauzqul

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/10/12
Posts: 1259

 
OP  1/02/13 10:26:17 AM#21
Originally posted by colddog04
Originally posted by mmoDAD
Originally posted by Hedeon

hope you know 2 of the games are from 2004, while talking about post 2011 games...

either way am all for details, this topic just havent really been something that have bothered me so far though....and looking at the replies so far, I guess there is your answer to why developers doesnt do it

I thought the same thing until I experienced it in the AoC beta. Since then, I've been yearning for it. It's like the first time you taste chocolate or something...

 

Moreover, most of the replies here are from people who do nothing but complain. The forum is a game for them - a port to vent.

To me, it looks like you have nothing better to do than complain. You are complaining about something that seems so extremely trivial to me, it feels almost cartoonish. You may think you have some kind of higher ground on complaining about ridiculous features, but I assure you, your complaints are absolutely bargain basement complaints.

If this means nothing to you, then why do you linger like a fart to stink up the discussion? If you aren't concerned with such add-ons, then move along and stop bumping the thread.

My goodness. lol.

 

 

 

For me, the weapon sheath is another great way to customize more of my character, e.g., changing the color of it or adding an emblem (like capes in some games). More is better. Stop acting like I'm asking to replace the importance of PvE / PvP with the development of weapon sheaths.

A great game will have it all.

  User Deleted
1/02/13 10:29:24 AM#22

Art detail is expensive, especially in large quantities as is required in an MMORPG.

 

Should we expect more from AAA games than what we're seeing?  Possibly.  But after five years with several less than postive releases, I wouldn't count on much.

 

  BeansnBread

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/19/06
Posts: 5544

1/02/13 10:29:26 AM#23
Originally posted by BadSpock
Originally posted by colddog04
Originally posted by BadSpock
Originally posted by colddog04

To me, it looks like you have nothing better to do than complain. You are complaining about something that seems so extremely trivial to me, it feels almost cartoonish. You may think you have some kind of higher ground on complaining about ridiculous features, but I assure you, your complaints are absolutely bargain basement complaints.

One man's trash is another man's treasure.

True. A half eaten Big Mac in the trash is someone's treasure.

MMMmmmmm Big Mac....

No in all seriousness I agree with the OP - MMOs have been sadly lacking in many of the immersive aspects most single players games have flourished with.

Is it the MMO genre as a platform? Is it prioritization of other features?

There are still countless MMOs released without things like sitting in chairs, swimming, jumping... may not be important to others but to me it breaks the feeling of being a character in this world which is important in the MMO space.

Your interpretation of the problem is a false equivalence.

 

Sitting requires 1 animation across many models once. Sheathing requires many animations across many models many times.

 

I understand waning more RP-like features, but this is one that actually takes more effort than it's worth.

 

 

SWTOR is the greatest mmo ever!

  BadSpock

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/21/04
Posts: 7695

Logic be damned!

1/02/13 10:32:55 AM#24
Originally posted by colddog04
Originally posted by BadSpock

MMMmmmmm Big Mac....

No in all seriousness I agree with the OP - MMOs have been sadly lacking in many of the immersive aspects most single players games have flourished with.

Is it the MMO genre as a platform? Is it prioritization of other features?

There are still countless MMOs released without things like sitting in chairs, swimming, jumping... may not be important to others but to me it breaks the feeling of being a character in this world which is important in the MMO space.

Your interpretation of the problem is a false equivalence.

Sitting requires 1 animation across many models once. Sheathing requires many animations across many models many times.

I understand waning more RP-like features, but this is one that actually takes more effort than it's worth.

I (like others) would be 100% perfectly fine with shared animations / models for all weapons of a particular type.

But I like the more basic/realistic medieval models for weapons/armor in most games - not all the curvy made of crystal and/or on fire + 3x times normal size ones.

Now Playing:
Looking Towards: Destiny

  BeansnBread

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/19/06
Posts: 5544

1/02/13 10:34:23 AM#25
Originally posted by mmoDAD
Originally posted by colddog04
Originally posted by mmoDAD
Originally posted by Hedeon

hope you know 2 of the games are from 2004, while talking about post 2011 games...

either way am all for details, this topic just havent really been something that have bothered me so far though....and looking at the replies so far, I guess there is your answer to why developers doesnt do it

I thought the same thing until I experienced it in the AoC beta. Since then, I've been yearning for it. It's like the first time you taste chocolate or something...

 

Moreover, most of the replies here are from people who do nothing but complain. The forum is a game for them - a port to vent.

To me, it looks like you have nothing better to do than complain. You are complaining about something that seems so extremely trivial to me, it feels almost cartoonish. You may think you have some kind of higher ground on complaining about ridiculous features, but I assure you, your complaints are absolutely bargain basement complaints.

If this means nothing to you, then why do you linger like a fart to stink up the discussion? If you aren't concerned with such add-ons, then move along and stop bumping the thread.

My goodness. lol.

 

 

 

For me, the weapon sheath is another great way to customize more of my character, e.g., changing the color of it or adding an emblem (like capes in some games). More is better. Stop acting like I'm asking to replace the importance of weapon sheaths with PvE or PvP.

It's hilarious that you think your tiny complaint is more important than anything else. Actually, it fits with the compaint itself. Your version of what matters is what matters and all other opinions are invalid. Unless of course you agree.

 

You are the complainer that claimes everyone else is complaining.

SWTOR is the greatest mmo ever!

  dlld

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/31/08
Posts: 516

1/02/13 10:36:23 AM#26
In the end what it comes down to is do you spend time on the sheathes or make more weapon models.
  BeansnBread

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/19/06
Posts: 5544

1/02/13 10:37:21 AM#27
Originally posted by BadSpock
Originally posted by colddog04
Originally posted by BadSpock

MMMmmmmm Big Mac....

No in all seriousness I agree with the OP - MMOs have been sadly lacking in many of the immersive aspects most single players games have flourished with.

Is it the MMO genre as a platform? Is it prioritization of other features?

There are still countless MMOs released without things like sitting in chairs, swimming, jumping... may not be important to others but to me it breaks the feeling of being a character in this world which is important in the MMO space.

Your interpretation of the problem is a false equivalence.

Sitting requires 1 animation across many models once. Sheathing requires many animations across many models many times.

I understand waning more RP-like features, but this is one that actually takes more effort than it's worth.

I (like others) would be 100% perfectly fine with shared animations / models for all weapons of a particular type.

But I like the more basic/realistic medieval models for weapons/armor in most games - not all the curvy made of crystal and/or on fire + 3x times normal size ones.

Somehow I have a feeling if very few weapon models were available to people that there would be many, many more people complaining about lack of variation in weapons.

 

I mean, in many, many games they already complain about it.

SWTOR is the greatest mmo ever!

  Kyleran

Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 18928

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

1/02/13 10:41:29 AM#28
Originally posted by Quirhid

You could use your imagination. Say the character's backs or the weapons themselves are sticky. That is why they can be carried around like that.

EDIT: In any case, not even close to a game breaking or making feature.

I can honestly say that I have never once considered how weapons were holstered, OP managed to bring up something new that never occurred to me before.

But I'm not much of a graphics guy.

 

"In these forums 'honest' seems to be a symonym for 'hates the game just like I do'" - ohioastro
Kyleran - Bitter Vet ™ since 2006
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  3-4thElf

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/03/12
Posts: 485

1/02/13 10:42:06 AM#29

2 times the time to make it happen isn't even close. 

Quite frankly there's not been an engine built for it. In single player games or MMOs. There are games that use visual tricks to a better extent than others.

Overall I don't think anyone cares. In a world with dragons, demons, or thousands of rounds of ammo kept in someone's imagination it doesn't matter.

a yo ho ho

  MikeB

MMORPG.com Community Manager

Joined: 5/27/09
Posts: 5421

1/02/13 10:42:10 AM#30
Easier for developers, but yes, huge pet peeve of mine. Also, bow wielding characters without quivers. Ugh!

Michael "MikeB" Bitton
Community Manager
Twitter: @eMikeB

  Thane

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/14/03
Posts: 1849

I'm a leaf on the wind. Watch how I soar.

1/02/13 10:42:24 AM#31
Originally posted by Ingvar

Foating weapons cost less to model and animate. Also the more detailed things are more the game will lag with alot of people around.

So Cost and Performance are the reason.

Why does Planetside 2 have GTA style "pull ot of your ass " system? Performance.

all said, next topic? :)

"I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"

  BadSpock

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/21/04
Posts: 7695

Logic be damned!

1/02/13 10:42:44 AM#32
Originally posted by colddog04
Originally posted by BadSpock
Originally posted by colddog04

Your interpretation of the problem is a false equivalence.

Sitting requires 1 animation across many models once. Sheathing requires many animations across many models many times.

I understand waning more RP-like features, but this is one that actually takes more effort than it's worth.

I (like others) would be 100% perfectly fine with shared animations / models for all weapons of a particular type.

But I like the more basic/realistic medieval models for weapons/armor in most games - not all the curvy made of crystal and/or on fire + 3x times normal size ones.

Somehow I have a feeling if very few weapon models were available to people that there would be many, many more people complaining about lack of variation in weapons.

I mean, in many, many games they already complain about it.

True...

But I'm the guy who finds a basic yet cool looking set of armor/weapons and such and just re-uses the skins over and over through systems like Transmog or Appearance tabs etc.

Hell it's 2013 and Appearance tabs and Armor dying isn't a MMO industry standard yet - which is absolutely ridiculous to me.

We were dying armor and clothes and hair/beards back in UO... 14 years ago.

Now Playing:
Looking Towards: Destiny

  BeansnBread

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/19/06
Posts: 5544

1/02/13 10:48:20 AM#33
Originally posted by BadSpock
Originally posted by colddog04
Originally posted by BadSpock
Originally posted by colddog04

Your interpretation of the problem is a false equivalence.

Sitting requires 1 animation across many models once. Sheathing requires many animations across many models many times.

I understand waning more RP-like features, but this is one that actually takes more effort than it's worth.

I (like others) would be 100% perfectly fine with shared animations / models for all weapons of a particular type.

But I like the more basic/realistic medieval models for weapons/armor in most games - not all the curvy made of crystal and/or on fire + 3x times normal size ones.

Somehow I have a feeling if very few weapon models were available to people that there would be many, many more people complaining about lack of variation in weapons.

I mean, in many, many games they already complain about it.

True...

But I'm the guy who finds a basic yet cool looking set of armor/weapons and such and just re-uses the skins over and over through systems like Transmog or Appearance tabs etc.

Hell it's 2013 and Appearance tabs and Armor dying isn't a MMO industry standard yet - which is absolutely ridiculous to me.

We were dying armor and clothes and hair/beards back in UO... 14 years ago.

Another false equivalency. Dyes =/= weapon sheathes for every weapon model including animations.

SWTOR is the greatest mmo ever!

  Astropuyo

Novice Member

Joined: 1/30/07
Posts: 1813

I lose more stars than a hollywood speedball convention.

1/02/13 10:50:49 AM#34

I don't know what you guys are talking about dev time..

 

It's rigging a mesh that has a standard size (The blade).

Multiply that by weapon types and you've a pretty easy job, dare I say it could add cosmetic appeal much like all those bunny ears and cloaks people pine after?

(This is what I would do with my current ability in 3d modeling not to say this is the BEST method)

Make the weapons

G-Sword > Large Mesh

L-Sword > Medium Mesh

So on and so forth, Now copy blade, increase geometry by a few degrees and ...bam.

 

Next, make withdraw animation, (Easily done with any 3d program including freebies), now take that animation, apply it to the models dds and bipety bopety bam! Once again you've defeated the "hard work", as for the clipping? Float it off the waist and not the hip , make the hip a hard point (if the engine allows) and you are done.

1 Sheathed weapon mesh, static.

2 Unsheathed weapon mesh, static.

3 Sheathed weapon mesh, Static.

I think most of you are thinking the ENTIRE weapon is sheathed and not the simple part. The killy part. The blade. I know there are weird blades out there, with big teeth etc, well whatever just mesh a bigger sheath so on.

 

It can be done, hell I just made about 50 weapons in M&B warband this weekend and it took me about 30 minutes, that includes sheath, as luckily most weapon models are standard size tri's etc...and thus sheath options are a breeze.

 

A professional should  be able to do 6x the work as my amateur hour self.

 

 

Edit: All in all there should be almost no noticable change in performance, not with the current gen of tech (Hell even 5 years ago tech can handle this) it is one extra model, the texture? You can just make it black.

 

 

And since I've heard some silly stuff... Mabinogi has done this and it's a old mmo. Mmo's can easily do this, don't let the cop out "it's a bunch of work" be the excuse for laziness.

With that mindset cloaks, hair etc is the same thing, and in many cultures the sheath is just as powerful a weapon as the blade, and thus can be another stat set...so on.

 

It's just added value, we used to call this Quality of life in the mmo world, but most seem to just not care for those items, or pretend they don't.

astropuyo Xfire Miniprofile
  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12092

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Wildstar, and Combat Arms

1/02/13 10:51:47 AM#35
Originally posted by mmoDAD

Why are we still dealing with the primitive way weapons are holstered?

Because no one has complained about it. There's no reason for devs to change something that successfully fullfills several roles (vanity, functionality, aesthetics) if no one has expressed an issue with it.

 

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fovoroth

  BadSpock

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/21/04
Posts: 7695

Logic be damned!

1/02/13 10:57:11 AM#36
Originally posted by colddog04
Originally posted by BadSpock

True...

But I'm the guy who finds a basic yet cool looking set of armor/weapons and such and just re-uses the skins over and over through systems like Transmog or Appearance tabs etc.

Hell it's 2013 and Appearance tabs and Armor dying isn't a MMO industry standard yet - which is absolutely ridiculous to me.

We were dying armor and clothes and hair/beards back in UO... 14 years ago.

Another false equivalency. Dyes =/= weapon sheathes for every weapon model including animations.

I'm not talking unique animations and sheathed appearances for every single weapon model in a game.

Maybe in pure fantasy land but yeah - that is ridiculous amount of extra work for very little benefit.

I'd be happier to just use the same "putting your weapon away" animation the games already use, and just throwing a basic (again maybe 3-4 per weapon type based on size?) sheath / cover on the model as it sits floating off your hip / back.

 

Now Playing:
Looking Towards: Destiny

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12092

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Wildstar, and Combat Arms

1/02/13 10:58:05 AM#37
Originally posted by Astropuyo

It can be done, hell I just made about 50 weapons in M&B warband this weekend and it took me about 30 minutes, that includes sheath, as luckily most weapon models are standard size tri's etc...and thus sheath options are a breeze.

Just two lines of code!

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  Astropuyo

Novice Member

Joined: 1/30/07
Posts: 1813

I lose more stars than a hollywood speedball convention.

1/02/13 11:00:49 AM#38
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Astropuyo

It can be done, hell I just made about 50 weapons in M&B warband this weekend and it took me about 30 minutes, that includes sheath, as luckily most weapon models are standard size tri's etc...and thus sheath options are a breeze.

Just two lines of code!

Dude not even that, it's like one line with a case.

Kid you not.

astropuyo Xfire Miniprofile
  Quizzical

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Joined: 12/11/08
Posts: 13273

1/02/13 11:16:30 AM#39
Originally posted by BadSpock

Because take every weapon in the game and add +1 for every.single.one to create a model/texture for the sheathed version.

Well, you "could" cheat and have every 1H sword look the same when sheathed for example and reduce the workload by a whole hell of a lot, but people would complain about that too.

Would it be unrealistic to create maybe 3-4 sheathed models/textures for each weapon type?

I don't think so.

But when so many weapons have different handles as well as shaped blades.... you see the problem.

Damned if you do - damned if you don't.

It works in the Zelda example because EVERY player of Zelda has the same sword...

^^^^^ this, basically.

Making characters visibly sheathe and unsheathe their weapons is very doable, but it's a lot of work.  It's a question of priorities and where you want to put the work in developing a game.  Would a game be better if it only had 2/3 as many armor and weapon options, but had an animation to properly sheathe every single weapon in the game?  Would it be better if you had just as many armor and weapon options, but the options are just different textures on a few basic shapes, and in exchange, there are animations created to sheathe and unsheathe those few shapes?

That's a matter of opinion, and you could reasonably argue that yes, it would be better.  But my guess is that most players would disagree and want more varied weapons and armors.

It's not really a performance issue, as the performance hit is pretty minor.  The performance hit of drawing a sheathe or holster on every fighting character is probably in the low single-digit percentages.  The performance hit of having a separate animation to sheathe and unsheathe weapons basically consists of using a little bit of extra memory (both system memory and video memory), plus maybe a slight performance hit for switching vertex data an extra time or two per frame, but that's so small that it would be unmeasurable unless you put code into the game engine for the specific purpose of measuring it.

  Dauzqul

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/10/12
Posts: 1259

 
OP  1/02/13 12:35:43 PM#40
Originally posted by Quizzical
Originally posted by BadSpock

Because take every weapon in the game and add +1 for every.single.one to create a model/texture for the sheathed version.

Well, you "could" cheat and have every 1H sword look the same when sheathed for example and reduce the workload by a whole hell of a lot, but people would complain about that too.

Would it be unrealistic to create maybe 3-4 sheathed models/textures for each weapon type?

I don't think so.

But when so many weapons have different handles as well as shaped blades.... you see the problem.

Damned if you do - damned if you don't.

It works in the Zelda example because EVERY player of Zelda has the same sword...

^^^^^ this, basically.

Making characters visibly sheathe and unsheathe their weapons is very doable, but it's a lot of work.  It's a question of priorities and where you want to put the work in developing a game.  Would a game be better if it only had 2/3 as many armor and weapon options, but had an animation to properly sheathe every single weapon in the game?  Would it be better if you had just as many armor and weapon options, but the options are just different textures on a few basic shapes, and in exchange, there are animations created to sheathe and unsheathe those few shapes?

That's a matter of opinion, and you could reasonably argue that yes, it would be better.  But my guess is that most players would disagree and want more varied weapons and armors.

It's not really a performance issue, as the performance hit is pretty minor.  The performance hit of drawing a sheathe or holster on every fighting character is probably in the low single-digit percentages.  The performance hit of having a separate animation to sheathe and unsheathe weapons basically consists of using a little bit of extra memory (both system memory and video memory), plus maybe a slight performance hit for switching vertex data an extra time or two per frame, but that's so small that it would be unmeasurable unless you put code into the game engine for the specific purpose of measuring it.

It can be done without much work.

 

Aion, although they don't have weapon sheaths, completely removed the complex character animations that are used to "holster" weapons.

Instead of having a series of holstering character animations, they instead used a few squiggly flashes of light when transferring the weapon from your hands to your back. It worked.

They can simply have two models for each weapon: 1 weapon and 1 sheathed version of the weapon. When you click "holster weapon", it will simply show the holstered version of the weapon on your back.

More 3D modeling? Not really. After the sheath is made, it can be used to fit a variety of swords. Just copy the hilt from any sword and place it on top of the sheath. Just copy the back of any gun and place it on top of a holster.

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